You know, considering the date of the scratch/memo and who it is addressed to, I tend to lean towards Fouke not contributing to the revised sketch.
Surely Armstrong & Toschi were involved and around at the time the composite was drawn up shortly after Paul’s murder. So, why would Fouke describe this man in an inter-office memo to Armstrong and Toschi in mid-November?
He is letting them know it was HIM who saw the man walk into the park via Maple and HIM letting officers know to look there once the corrected call of a WMA came in.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
Yes, Foukes police report confession just states he saw Zodiac walk east on Jackson and North on Maple which is a court near the Presidio.
What did the kids say Zodiac was wearing, did they describe the windbreaker in blue and rust colored pants. The kids did not describe an
older man with blond or greying hair. What a mess.
Actually, this is what was written in the police report the night of Stine’s murder. I take it THIS is the description given by the teens. If so, it would seem the info on the initial composite WAS incorrect and changed to reflect what was originally in the pd report.
(Fouke also admits the hair MAY have appeared to look as if it were graying due to the lighting. Other than that…damn close, imo. Fouke clearly states the man was seen going INTO the Presidio and the direction of the Julius Kahn playground.)
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
You know, considering the date of the scratch/memo and who it is addressed to, I tend to lean towards Fouke not contributing to the revised sketch.
Surely Armstrong & Toschi were involved and around at the time the composite was drawn up shortly after Paul’s murder. So, why would Fouke describe this man in an inter-office memo to Armstrong and Toschi in mid-November?
He is letting them know it was HIM who saw the man walk into the park via Maple and HIM letting officers know to look there once the corrected call of a WMA came in.
The dilemma in believing this for me is the alteration of Z’s age estimate. One week after the event and weeks BEFORE Fouke’s memo, the age estimate was changed by 10-15 years to precisely match Fouke’s later estimate. This would have occurred just days after Zodiac claimed responsibility and indicated that he had been escaping on foot in the general direction of where Fouke encountered someone. Before this time, it’s very possible that Fouke did not consider his encounter significant. Fouke’s memo is then not written until 11/12/69, immediately after Zodiac writes again and specifically alludes to having an encounter with Fouke by saying "two cops pulled a goof…".
Given the timeline, I think it’s very likely that Fouke had discussed his encounter and observations after Zodiac’s initial letter and that his information was included in the revised composite sketch (or perhaps was the main reason for issuing a revised sketch and description?). It’s conceivable that his information was used without his knowledge but it strains credulity to believe that the teens just unanimously decided days after their initial encounter that the guy they saw was really 10-15 years older than they first thought.
10/11/69- Paul Stine is killed and Fouke has an encounter with a white male a few blocks away.
10/13/69- The initial sketch of the perpetarator (based on eyewitness info. from the teens) is created and released.
10/13/69- Zodiac mails a letter indicating that he had escaped on foot and had been hiding "in the park" watching some of the activities after the murder (whether that’s true or not…)
10/17/69- A revised sketch is created (issued 10/18) with an almost identical physical description other than increasing the suspect’s age by 10-15 years to 35-45.
11/9/69- Zodiac writes again and describing his escape and encounter with two cops who "pulled a goof" by not stopping him. He wants the portion about his masterful dupe of the two cops printed in the SF Chronicle (who had received the letter) for all to see.
11/12/69- Fouke submits his memo with a very detailed description of his encounter (far more detailed than what was offered by the teens or than was included in the wanted posters).
The timeline leads me to believe that Fouke likely became aware of the possible significance of his encounter after the initial Zodiac letter and offered someone his observations. Once Zodiac wrote again, apparently confirming that encounter and looking to use it in order to publicly embarrass Fouke and Zelms for not capturing him, an official memo was created. Whether or not Zodiac’s account of the contact was accurate, Fouke would have had no choice but to give an official report of the encounter.
^^I understand what you are saying entropy. The timing of Fouke’s memo has always sparked an interest. I too believe it was Zodiac’s letter that triggered it. I just question why it was have been addressed to Armstrong and Toschi like it was new info for them. Maybe it was…
It would just seem the teens are the ones who initially said Zodiac was in his early 40’s. So wondering where the 25-30 comment on the original came from.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
In thinking about OWK’s question about the likelihood that Fouke and Zelms actually encountered Zodiac, this question came to mind:
Was this encounter made public at all prior to Fouke’s written memo?
I looked back through a few of the newspaper articles a month or so after the Stine murder and didn’t see any indication that it was. In fact, the 10/18/69 Chronicle article that calls Z a "clumsy criminal" refers to him as "allowing himself to be seen by three witnesses as he fled from the Presidio Heights murder scene". No mention of any encounter with police…
http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/art … 615336.php
The article also calls out Zodiac for lying about remaining near the scene after the murder, stating "Lee (Chief of Inspectors, Marvin Lee) said the fact that Zodiac failed to mention the dogs and floodlights proves "he wasn’t anywhere in the vicinity." Zodiac then responds to this article almost point for point in his Bus Bomb letter on 11/9/69 and claims to have had a brief conversation with "two cops" a short distance from the scene. Could Z have known this occurred without being there? His actual account of the encounter may or may not be true but, if the encounter wasn’t made public, it would confirm that he was the person seen by Fouke, no?
In thinking about OWK’s question about the likelihood that Fouke and Zelms actually encountered Zodiac, this question came to mind:
Was this encounter made public at all prior to Fouke’s written memo?
I looked back through a few of the newspaper articles a month or so after the Stine murder and didn’t see any indication that it was. In fact, the 10/18/69 Chronicle article that calls Z a "clumsy criminal" refers to him as "allowing himself to be seen by three witnesses as he fled from the Presidio Heights murder scene". No mention of any encounter with police…
http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/art … 615336.php
The article also calls out Zodiac for lying about remaining near the scene after the murder, stating "Lee (Chief of Inspectors, Marvin Lee) said the fact that Zodiac failed to mention the dogs and floodlights proves "he wasn’t anywhere in the vicinity." Zodiac then responds to this article almost point for point in his Bus Bomb letter on 11/9/13 and claims to have had a brief conversation with "two cops" a short distance from the scene. Could Z have known this occurred without being there? His actual account of the encounter may or may not be true but, if the encounter wasn’t made public, it would confirm that he was the person seen by Fouke, no?
Yes. I always thought Zodiac referring to the 2 cops was pretty much the proof needed that he was the guy they saw. I mention this on the previous page.
I doubt it became public info until Zelms was killed. If it even did then, I don’t know.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
Apologies for continually writing "13" rather than "69" when dates are cited. I just hope I’m not constantly writing "69" every time I date something at work. 
In thinking about OWK’s question about the likelihood that Fouke and Zelms actually encountered Zodiac, this question came to mind:
Was this encounter made public at all prior to Fouke’s written memo?
What’s public? Public in-the-newspapers public, or "known about in the SFPD" public, or ….?
I personally do NOT think that Zodiac referring to the 2 cops is proof that he was there. Especially not so long after the fact…..
Now – a piece of shirt with blood on it? That’s another thing entirely.
Entropy – 13 instead of 69? Yes, that’s, err, odd. Beware.
Back to topic – the second sketch has been "aged" to include age lines and wrinkles on the face and neck and that receding hairline – the primary purpose for re-visiting it. No?
^^I understand what you are saying entropy. The timing of Fouke’s memo has always sparked an interest. I too believe it was Zodiac’s letter that triggered it. I just question why it was have been addressed to Armstrong and Toschi like it was new info for them. Maybe it was…
It would just seem the teens are the ones who initially said Zodiac was in his early 40’s. So wondering where the 25-30 comment on the original came from.
Maybe there was another witness we dont know about? There was a kid,aged 8 years old in one of the FBI reports that picked out ________as a possible suspect in the Stine murder. From what we can gather, this 8 year old was NOT one of the kids in the window that called it in.
Also, regarding the kids overall description, I think that across the street,at night,and while they were very excited and upset at what they were seeing,their descriptions may not be dead on. I have 20/20 vision, but at night from across a street, I think I may even have trouble telling somebody’s age.
There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer
http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS
^^I understand what you are saying entropy. The timing of Fouke’s memo has always sparked an interest. I too believe it was Zodiac’s letter that triggered it. I just question why it was have been addressed to Armstrong and Toschi like it was new info for them. Maybe it was…
It would just seem the teens are the ones who initially said Zodiac was in his early 40’s. So wondering where the 25-30 comment on the original came from.
What exactly do you mean by this Tahoe? Do you think Z wrote the letter, and then Fouke wanted to get himself involved in the case by saying he saw Z?? I was wondering the same thing, but wouldnt/couldnt Zelms have shot that down immediately if it was not true?
There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer
http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS
I think Tahoe is saying that Fouke’s memo was written in response to Zodiac demanding in his 11/9/69 letter for the Chronicle to publish his claim about being stopped by police and allegedly having a brief verbal interaction. Whether or not wanted that known or whether he realizes the significance of the contact, he really had no choice but to officially report the incidence once he was called out by Zodiac. His report was completed 11/12/69- a month after it occurred but only a day or two after Z’s letter was received.
I think Tahoe is saying that Fouke’s memo was written in response to Zodiac demanding in his 11/9/69 letter for the Chronicle to publish his claim about being stopped by police and allegedly having a brief verbal interaction. Whether or not wanted that known or whether he realizes the significance of the contact, he really had no choice but to officially report the incidence once he was called out by Zodiac. His report was completed 11/12/69- a month after it occurred but only a day or two after Z’s letter was received.
Yes.
The whole damn thing is so frustrating. If it was Fouke who led officers into the park, why hadn’t Armstrong and Toschi already talked to him already? I mean, the cops who probably saw Zodiac didn’t talk to the lead investigators until they got a MEMO? The whole this is weird.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
Fouke mentioned that SOMEONE spoke to him down at the Richmond station that very night after the search was called off. My guess is that there was either a communications breakdown, or Fouke’s initial testimony was simply not put into writing.
I think the interior light from the cab lit up during the teenagers observation. The boy went down stairs and watched from the darkness.
San Francisco also has street lights.
Yes, Foukes police report confession just states he saw Zodiac walk east on Jackson and North on Maple which is a court near the Presidio.
What did the kids say Zodiac was wearing, did they describe the windbreaker in blue and rust colored pants. The kids did not describe an
older man with blond or greying hair. What a mess.Actually, this is what was written in the police report the night of Stine’s murder. I take it THIS is the description given by the teens. If so, it would seem the info on the initial composite WAS incorrect and changed to reflect what was originally in the pd report.
(Fouke also admits the hair MAY have appeared to look as if it were graying due to the lighting. Other than that…damn close, imo. Fouke clearly states the man was seen going INTO the Presidio and the direction of the Julius Kahn playground.)
Well that’s just weird. Why the hell would the wanted poster then contradict the eyewitnesses’ age estimates? It wasn’t taking into account other Zodiac witnesses because nobody knew this was Zodiac at the time. It still makes me wonder whether Fouke’s observations weren’t immediately taken into account, although he may not have known for sure that he saw the same guy until Zodiac wrote to say "yeah, that was me". Even if the teens estimate was early 40s and somehow misrepresented initially (which I doubt), the revision somehow became "35-45" to mirror Fouke’s later estimate. Either way, the 35-45 estimate was not just pulled out of thin air. It’s a clear outlier but it’s eyewitness testimony to be taken for what it’s worth.
