traveller1st, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:51 am

Jdean327’s interview with the kids who saw Z is a must read when studying what happened in the cab

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … esses#2197

Yup,

Very good. I have read it before but it’s always nice to refresh. Certainly gives you more faith in the composite.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:53 am

QT (Cutey!) – Dousette moved Paul Stine (he was an arriving ambulanceman, it’s been said) in order to try and render him first aid, one would imagine. Why they would then photograph the man in that unfortunate position, I couldn’t say. Presumably the crime scene tech’s didn’t know he’d been moved.

Bentley – great thread that, and that post in particular. I liked:

"opened the drivers door. Stein had fallen over onto the seat and Z pulled him back up into the seated position and had some difficulty keeping him upright. Once upright, he was seen to have a rag, or something like a handkerchief and began to wipe down the door area and leaning over the driver, part of the dashboard. Whe[n] he was finished, Z calmly walked to Cherry St. and walked North."

…since OK, he did open the door, so makes sense he wiped that too. It also makes some sense to me that he pulled Paul Stine back into a sitting position – where he’d represent some semblance of normality, sitting up in his cab – to afford some time to escape before the crime was discovered. That would explain his confidence level being high enough to walk off slowly. Maybe he was wiping bloodstains from the dash since they might also have served to attract attention, but again, I’d bet it was the steering wheel.
No matter, really.

Evidently he didn’t notice that he was being observed – he wouldn’t have acted so coolly if he had known, huh? And those last few actions would have made no sense. So those reports of the kids "making eye contact with the killer" are just bs., as one might expect.

(What does his buying some time like that say about where he was going to? To a nearby car, to drive away? Not if he really was a robber – a guy who held up cab drivers for twenty bucks and a ride. I suspect he lived not too far away down the hill – someplace affordable. Pure speculation.)

FWIW I think he looked JUST like that composite.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:49 am

Lastly – ah lastly. With me always a "lastly".

Mr Horan’s very excited with the idea that the writer would need a confederate in the SF coroner’s office to get some shirt material for him etc., then posting it yadda yadda, two people and so on. He has a suspect based on this idea. I have no idea at all who the suspect might be. It’s all very complicated.

I’ve a question: If you’d just shot a cab driver to death and robbed him, how far would you walk carrying a piece of his shirt?

RTF, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:28 am

…I’ve a question: If you’d just shot a cab driver to death and robbed him, how far would you walk carrying a piece of his shirt?

We can safely assume that Z thought his crimes through insofar as assessing the odds, and making sure that they were in his favour i.e. shooting kids in or next to a car, like shooting fish in a barrel; and penning victims in on a lakeside peninsula with no means of escape.

Hence, he would no doubt have thought through or researched the response times of cops to a Presidio Heights type area cabbie killing/robbery.

Perhaps a minimum of 3 to 4 minutes, given that a witness would have to call the cops, most likely via an operator. And then the dispatcher would have to alert patrols.

So, 3 to 4 minutes to calmly walk to the park, and/or possibly a nearby car. Just enough.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:38 am

Hi RTF – is that Rich Text Format btw, or am I just being nerdy? And welcome if you’re indeed new. Your other post doesn’t make you sound THAT new.

I agree with you entirely. Anyone would want to know how long he or she likely had to stage an escape. To not behave that way would be the actions of a junkie or a drug addict, or someone too desperate for money to be thinking properly. None of those seem to completely apply here.

And thanks, I perhaps need to re-phrase my question….. Doh!

Would you – if you took the shirt with you, walk very far with it still in your possession?
Or have you already answered that?

RTF, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:53 am

……Would you – if you took the shirt with you, walk very far with it still in your possession?
Or have you already answered that?

Why not? ….I’m The Zodiac. I’m spattered in blood. I’ve got a gun. I’ve got options for shootout, suicide and surrender. And I need this shirt to prove I did it.

Or maybe my car is very near by, not by the park. … I seem to have thought out the rest of it … And, you know how I can fib!

(BTW, I am Rufus (T Firefly), formerly of this parish, and Mike’s). Thx for the welcome in any case. …And you can blame that Zam for my return.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:01 am

Jdean327’s interview with the kids who saw Z is a must read when studying what happened in the cab

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … esses#2197

The (16 yr. old??) kid saw blood?

I think stories get embellished, but I’m sure the majority of this one is correct.

Either way it doesn’t prove Zodiac was in the front seat.

Here’s the thing. There was no exit wound. So…how did blood get everywhere?

I think at first STINE’S body probably fell towards the door or steering wheel. It’s not like there was a spray. So the blood would have been coming from the entrance wound and maybe nose, mouth, ears…

I do think immediately after STINE was shot, he would not have been all sprawled out with blood everywhere. I think happened when Zodiac moved the body to get to the shirt.

We can question all day whether Zodiac sat in the front or back, but we will never have the answer.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:18 pm

Re: "never have the answer" amen to that. Not sure it much matters either. (I just know I wouldn’t have gone and got in the front, personally!)
I didn’t know there was no exit wound T – I really should have gone and read up again.
My two film scenarios don’t play either then hmm? Wouldn’t you know it, get lazy on something and it will bite you.
Still, I suppose less blood spatter = more likely to need cloth for wiping fingerprints.

Ah Rufus T, of course. Yo! I’m giving up playing detective, I’m rubbish at it.

Is Paul Stine still in the seat in this picture?
And is that any old passerby just a-swinging on the door, or someone known?
Toschi’s pants are too short.

http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/sanfrancisco.htm

bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:31 pm

I’m sure glad you guys showed up to play with Smithy, I gotta lurk for a bit.

One last bit of Horanism: IIRC he said something about the blood print, like one minute droplet of blood got past Stine’s head (no exit wound right?), flew out the open window (it is open I believe), and instead of falling to the ground or on the door it made a U-turn and landed on the outside window frame.

That just may have the Kennedy bullet beat.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:15 pm

(BTW, I am Rufus (T Firefly), formerly of this parish, and Mike’s). Thx for the welcome in any case. …And you can blame that Zam for my return.

Off topic for just a quick second! But YAY Rufus (T. Firefly) you are one of us, so there!
So glad you are posting again….I know we all missed you, your wisdom & that wild, fun energy!

Zincerely Your Pal, Zam :star:

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:16 pm

Out of curiosity,

Did Horan’s theory include the operator who issued the BMA info??

RTF, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:48 pm

…….Would you – if you took the shirt with you, walk very far with it still in your possession?

Okay Smithy. Leaving aside that you failed to crack my idenity given the actual initials , why the question? And what kind of answers did you expect?

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:10 pm

Well JDean’s interview explains why Zodiac went back to the driver’s side of the cab.
To prop the body of Paul Stine back straight up. It sounds like he struggled a little, and
therefore could have inadvertently left some prints, at least palm prints.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:14 pm

Poor Bentley, I’ve tired him out with this Horan tosh. Good luck matey – but take this with you. Whatever scenario he’s on about, and I can’t make head nor tail of it. Horan said "The print on the driver’s door window post was made by a hand which had grasped the post, with the ring finger pressing down on a tiny droplet of blood spattered onto the interior of the door…"
Horan, Thomas (2012-07-19). The Great Zodiac Killer Hoax of 1969 (Kindle Locations 556-558). . Kindle Edition. .

So there you are.
What it’s about I have no idea as yet. Something about a finger print on the cab matching the "Little List" letter I think – but then one would expect that to be the case if Zodiac shot Stine and took a piece of his shirt to validate the letters with! That’s all very odd.

1WK – you think Stine was still alive? Could have been I suppose, I hadn’t thought of that. I must read the autopsy stuff if there is any. I’m strike 3 right now on basic homework. Very bad.

Trav – nope, no mention of the BMA info, I just searched the thing for you. His conspiracy didn’t extend that far. Fortunately. It might yet though!

RTF – Hello again and well met, it’s certainly been a while.
Well, yes, the question.
Excuse me if you know this, but this bloke Horan who has stirred everything up suggesting all the letters are faked. And the car door at Berryessa. It’s tough to get to grips with. He asserts that Paul Stine’s killer didn’t remove a piece of shirt that went straight across the back – that a subsequent malefactor removed another piece. (From either the coroner’s or the property office I suppose, although that’s not yet clear from his heavily redacted "report" either.) Difficult for me, that. Althhough if he produces a suspect or some wonderful evidence in the future, well OK I’ll have been wrong. Again.

Meantime it struck me that if the killer wasn’t the letter writer, as alleged, and therefore didn’t need Paul’s shirt to validate future letters, (had indeed only removed it to wipe down the cab to get rid of fingerprints having no substitute to do so with him), that he might not have kept it for long.
I can’t imagine, say, that he would have taken it home.

I’d have thought the keys and wallet might have gone down a drain – perhaps the shirt too – or into someone’s front yard.
It seemed a far likelier scenario to me that if the letter writer were at or near the crime scene and did indeed touch the cab, he might have seen and retrieved that whole piece of shirt.

But still, this is an awful lot of far-reaching speculation to try and make Mr Horan’s theory more believable isn’t it. There’s an easier explanation!

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:39 pm

So once again, Mr Horan’s letter Hoaxer is an accessory to murder, having been at the
scene of murders messing with evidence. Much worse than a hoax. Much worse.
Did Zodiac keep momentos of his crimes? In my opinion he did. My suspect kept many
creepy items which I had no idea what they meant when we were married. Old keys,
bits of jewelry, horn rimmed eye glasses. If only I knew what to look for… Very similar
to what Miss Sandy Betts describes as being left in the back seat of her car that day.
One day, maybe 16 years after we were married, my three year old toddled out holding
a ladies’ stocking (not mine) singular, with a run, stopped by a dab of cheap nailpolish.
Lots of weird stuff like that over the years. Didn’t know to look for a piece of striped shirt.

bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:12 am

Trav – nope, no mention of the BMA info, I just searched the thing for you. His conspiracy didn’t extend that far. Fortunately. It might yet though!

Maybe he did, the dispatcher hoaxed! :scratch:

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:24 am

Maybe he did, the dispatcher hoaxed! :scratch:

When you’re smart – and of course want to appear smarter – it’s easy just to keep cranking on up the insanity level to fit where you want to get to isn’t it!
I think the SFPD dispatcher’s a good target for conspiracy – and so is the tech ID at Napa who managed to foul up the job of taking the handprint from the phone at the car wash. (If that’s true….).
They did it on purpose, I tell you! It’s a conspiracy!

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:36 am

Lets not forget all the employees at the US Federal Reserve. Oh, wait, scrap that…that would make it a coin-spiracy.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:58 am

Lets not forget all the employees at the US Federal Reserve. Oh, wait, scrap that…that would make it a coin-spiracy.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:32 am

So once again, Mr Horan’s letter Hoaxer is an accessory to murder, having been at the
scene of murders messing with evidence. Much worse than a hoax. Much worse.

My opinion too, if true, although Mr Horan’s blog makes it appear that no charges can now be preferred. Sounds hokey – what do I know.
Here in ye UK, we prosecute people who mess with the justice system most avidly. (As I’ve said often, recently).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wearside_Jack
Re: "Zodiac and souvenirs" – I am raising my eyebrow, electronically, here!
On any other thread I’d wonder about it, but on this thread of course I’m compelled to say no, because he wasn’t there.

STOP PRESS:
A bone from Mr Horan – who makes two good points.
If there was a piece of shirt in the November 9th letter, why does it also say "To prove I am the Zodiac ask the Valleho cop about my electric gun sight" which is odd.
He also mentions that the Belli letter didn’t arrive until December 20. Hmm. I presume (immediately) that it’s a cash-in on the TV stuff, but I’ll have to check.
How very tedious this is! Mr Horan rattles on about it being a genuine requirement for a lawyer [in his report] – which I think is absolute pootle.
Last, he says who is the mysterious Mr Keel? (I think you asked about him on the other thread already "onewhoknows"….)
Ah, me.

bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:16 am

STOP PRESS:
A bone from Mr Horan – who makes two good points.
If there was a piece of shirt in the November 9th letter, why does it also say "To prove I am the Zodiac ask the Valleho cop about my electric gun sight" which is odd.

To prove that Stine’s killer was the same killer as in Vallejo, no? Am I underthinking this one? (first cuppa)

STOP PRESS:
He also mentions that the Belli letter didn’t arrive until December 20. Hmm. I presume (immediately) that it’s a cash-in on the TV stuff, but I’ll have to check.
How very tedious this is! Mr Horan rattles on about it being a genuine requirement for a lawyer [in his report] – which I think is absolute pootle.

Anniversary of LHR…

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:58 am

To prove that Stine’s killer was the same killer as in Vallejo, no? Am I underthinking this one? (first cuppa)

No, yes, I dunno.
One explanation is in order to stitch the crime sequence together, again, as was done before – and on 12th October too "I killed those guys in Northern California" or whatever it was.
And yes, Mr Horans right, it was unecessary to say that, especially if there’s a lump of shirt in the envelope – no proof req’d.

Anniversary of LHR…

Yep – star’s weren’t aligned until then. Sagittarius on the cusp of Capricorn. (Sometimes I think you’re just mean.)

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:08 pm

The above evidence list states PER KEEL on the last two items with the shirt included.
Who’s Keel?

David Allen Keel, "former lab expert with the SFPD" and one-time letters guy, mentioned on page 219 of the Lafferty book.
There’s been some doubt about his abilities too, apparently. Not from me though (if he’s reading this).

bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:19 pm

Hmm, a lump of shirt in the Oct letter along with "I killed those kids in the north bay".

OK, proves you’re the killer of Stine, no proof of north bay crimes.

Nov letter, more shirt, plus a ‘secret’ only he and the VPD know.

So you didn’t believe I was the same guy by my Oct., letter, try this on for size.

Was there some published doubt about the Oct. ‘north bay’ claim that he had to address again in Nov?

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:10 pm

Was there some published doubt about the Oct. ‘north bay’ claim that he had to address again in Nov?

I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa.

Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine…I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn’t take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity.

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:48 pm

I feel Zodiac wanted to engage a big time police department such as San Francisco.
Paul Stine was a delibrate random act, just to mess with the San Francisco Police.
Scared himself didn’t he? Went underground with any other murders. Stopped taking
credit for his crimes.
What would be the motive for a hoax letter writer? I can hear Zodiac’s horrid, sad,
desperate personality in these letters.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:10 am

Tahoe – ah yep, the problem with MO’s again, and "signature", eh? If he’d been in it for the souvenirs (as has been suggested about the attack on Paul Stine) then yes, how odd Berryessa is. How odd it is anyway. How odd that a hoaxer manages to turn up to write on a door when a guy with a hood on makes his debut. It’s really very vexing.
(Hey! Which thread is this?! It’s about the shirt and Stine isn’t it! Oh well – press on regardless!)

I feel Zodiac wanted to engage a big time police department such as San Francisco.

Me too. I think he needed a bigger stage, and went looking for one in SF.

What would be the motive for a hoax letter writer? I can hear Zodiac’s horrid, sad, desperate personality in these letters.

$64,000 dollar question, that. Although the "voice" in the letter varies, to my mind. At the start of the series it was pretty much all-business. Later it was sometimes gleeful and spiteful, very much about the police force and not about the crimes, and in the Belli letter it at least tries to generate some sort of understanding and sympathy – even though that’s entirely false and mocking in my opinion. Last – its quite philosophical and musing; the "little list". Hmmm.

Depending on your view of the writer, I suppose the motive range might be:
He’s a mass-murderer getting an extra kick out of terrorism and press attention.
He’s a sad nutcase, getting pleasure from associating himself with crimes and killing – a complete fantasist.
He’s got some "sensible"underlying motive, such as assisting the Chronicle with their battle for circulation, or generating more resource and assistance for the beleagured Vallejo (and perhaps Napa and SF) police forces, albeit it in an way which is EXTRAORDINARILY self-deceptive and downright warped.

At this point I think that there are elements of all three. Since the hoax letters go SO far, I think that the original motivation grew and perhaps became even more strange and grandiose, over time. But whutdoIknohuh?

Back to the shirt again – I think I need a little timetable of crimes v’s letters, and also a reference to which letters referred to which crimes.

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:48 am

I guess one would have to have had access to Paul Stine’s shirt, after having written the earlier
letters. And this person happens to be at the scene at Lake Berryessa, at the time of the murder,
to write on the victims’ car door? Only someone in Law Enforcement would be in a position to
do such a thing. And Napa is not very close to San Francisco, different counties, different jurisdictions.

What’s the first rule of great drama? IT MUST BE BELIEVABLE. Most likely, only the person committing
these crimes, had access and opportunity on all these levels, to write these letters, and send in clues and
pieces of evidence. Mr. Horan would do his arguement well to produce some handwriting samples, as I have
seen some very close examples to the Zodiac’s handwriting here on this forum from a variety of suspects.
It had better be a very good match or Mr. Horan will appear to be the most recent Hoaxer. As my mother
used to say, "Nothing is real. At least nothing you can see." Zodiac depended on this for his continued freedom.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:52 am

I guess one would have to have had access to Paul Stine’s shirt, after having written the earlier letters. And this person happens to be at the scene at Lake Berryessa, at the time of the murder, to write on the victims’ car door? Only someone in Law Enforcement would be in a position to
do such a thing.

Agreed. It sounds rather doo-lally doesn’t it? But I suppose we should continue to indulge the man. (Even if he doesn’t know how many short pieces make 3).

Between ourselves, I’m not very excited about Mr H. producing perfect handwriting examplars, if I’m honest. If he does, great, if he doesn’t, no surprise.

I’m much more interested in how the fantastic coincidence of the symbol on the attacker at Berryessa is reconciled, without the writer having been involved at least as an accessory to murder.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:09 pm

But I suppose we should continue to indulge the man. (Even if he doesn’t know how many short pieces make 3).

Why?

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:14 pm

Ow!!!!

tracers, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:57 pm

As an aside, here is a link to an old eBay listing for SFC article on the Stine letter. It has some pix of the article that people may want to copy and save.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi … 050wt_1271

I really wasn’t sure where to post this and didn’t want to start a new thread in the magazine section of the board for this one link.

sandy betts, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:37 pm

Thank you Tracer’s, I wonder who the person was from AZ who paid $222.50 for those papers ?
Very nice for a true Z collector !

The article mentioned that the killer sat in the front seat, yet so many people over the yrs thought he was in the back seat. The note looked as if it was torn along the edges, didn’t we see another Z note that had the top and bottom edge done that same way ? I think that one was thought to be teletype paper ?

I am also curious to know if the police asked to have the letter’s size changed to protect against copy cats ?

sandy betts, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:58 pm

Was there some published doubt about the Oct. ‘north bay’ claim that he had to address again in Nov?

I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa.

Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine…I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn’t take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity.

As far as we know he didn’t take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don’t know too many people who didn’t have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can’t get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia’s roommate didn’t remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something.

Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:06 am

Was there some published doubt about the Oct. ‘north bay’ claim that he had to address again in Nov?

I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa.

Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine…I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn’t take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity.

As far as we know he didn’t take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don’t know too many people who didn’t have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can’t get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia’s roommate didn’t remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something.

One might assume that these were Cecilia’s belongings…also the small book, no? Did you give all these things away? You once mentioned you had it at some safe bank depot, Think there is no big thing with making one or more pictures of it? 99.999% the blood on it wouldn’t be Z’s anyway and it would be interesting what she had read that day.

QT

sandy betts, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:27 am

Was there some published doubt about the Oct. ‘north bay’ claim that he had to address again in Nov?

I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa.

Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine…I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn’t take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity.

As far as we know he didn’t take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don’t know too many people who didn’t have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can’t get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia’s roommate didn’t remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something.

One might assume that these were Cecilia’s belongings…also the small book, no? Did you give all these things away? You once mentioned you had it at some safe bank depot, Think there is no big thing with making one or more pictures of it? 99.999% the blood on it wouldn’t be Z’s anyway and it would be interesting what she had read that day.

QT

The small book that was like a Catholic bible, I would think could have belonged to Cheri Jo Bates, I still have it and the watch. The other book is a old dictionary from the early 1940’s, that is the one that has what looks like blood on it. I doubt it is the Zodiac’s blood, but I do have a gut feeling that it is a mixture of both Bryan and Cecilia’s, I do still have that. A lot of what I had I gave to SFPD Jim Deasy in Jan 1990. Not knowing that they could care less about what I gave them, because it did not pertain to their case. I also gave them a glass that has my poi’s DNA and hand prints on it. They still have it all , and won’t let me have it back.
Zamantha has taken pictures of all of what I have left and sent it in a email to Napa’s Patrick McMahon ( Sorry not sure of that spelling ) Maybe when Zam is not to busy ,she can post them on my thread ? It was after my emails, and Katana’s conversation to that Napa Det. he then contacted Tom V. and read his message board.

Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:43 am

Was there some published doubt about the Oct. ‘north bay’ claim that he had to address again in Nov?

I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa.

Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine…I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn’t take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity.

As far as we know he didn’t take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don’t know too many people who didn’t have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can’t get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia’s roommate didn’t remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something.

One might assume that these were Cecilia’s belongings…also the small book, no? Did you give all these things away? You once mentioned you had it at some safe bank depot, Think there is no big thing with making one or more pictures of it? 99.999% the blood on it wouldn’t be Z’s anyway and it would be interesting what she had read that day.

QT

The small book that was like a Catholic bible, I would think could have belonged to Cheri Jo Bates, I still have it and the watch. The other book is a old dictionary from the early 1940’s, that is the one that has what looks like blood on it. I doubt it is the Zodiac’s blood, but I do have a gut feeling that it is a mixture of both Bryan and Cecilia’s, I do still have that. A lot of what I had I gave to SFPD Jim Deasy in Jan 1990. Not knowing that they could care less about what I gave them, because it did not pertain to their case. I also gave them a glass that has my poi’s DNA and hand prints on it. They still have it all , and won’t let me have it back.
Zamantha has taken pictures of all of what I have left and sent it in a email to Napa’s Patrick McMahon ( Sorry not sure of that spelling ) Maybe when Zam is not to busy ,she can post them on my thread ? It was after my emails, and Katana’s conversation to that Napa Det. he then contacted Tom V. and read his message board.

Hi Sandy,

that would be really great (pictures)., thanks for your kind information.

QT

sandy betts, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:00 pm

Rather than spend another minute on Horan’s theory, I find it far more interesting, that the date these pieces were put together for that picture was in 1997 ?

Something else I need some feed back on, is that after the ‘one’ large piece of shirt was torn off,then used to wipe down the cab. The killer cuts the 3 smaller ones that were cut from that piece. It looks to me that those 3 were cut across the top and bottom of each piece with what is known as pinking shears ? You lady’s who have sewn will know what those are.
Notice the edges are shaped vvvvvvvvv ? Not really frayed. That sort of reminded me of the edges that Zodiac had used on the peek through the pines card ?

For you men who may not know what pinking shears are , they are scissors used by sewers who want to protect the edges of material from fraying, they cut in a v shape , like shown above. If I am correct ,then there should be no doubt that the pines card was the work of the Zodiiac.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:26 pm

Maybe he tore it and then used the pinking shears to cut it before mailing them? Part does appear to be torn, and part cut.

The Pines card edges were used with the hole punch the sender used to punch in the hole (circle for the cross) in the card.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:14 pm

Was there some published doubt about the Oct. ‘north bay’ claim that he had to address again in Nov?

I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa.

Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine…I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn’t take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity.

As far as we know he didn’t take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don’t know too many people who didn’t have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can’t get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia’s roommate didn’t remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something.

One might assume that these were Cecilia’s belongings…also the small book, no? Did you give all these things away? You once mentioned you had it at some safe bank depot, Think there is no big thing with making one or more pictures of it? 99.999% the blood on it wouldn’t be Z’s anyway and it would be interesting what she had read that day.

QT

The small book that was like a Catholic bible, I would think could have belonged to Cheri Jo Bates, I still have it and the watch. The other book is a old dictionary from the early 1940’s, that is the one that has what looks like blood on it. I doubt it is the Zodiac’s blood, but I do have a gut feeling that it is a mixture of both Bryan and Cecilia’s, I do still have that. A lot of what I had I gave to SFPD Jim Deasy in Jan 1990. Not knowing that they could care less about what I gave them, because it did not pertain to their case. I also gave them a glass that has my poi’s DNA and hand prints on it. They still have it all , and won’t let me have it back.
Zamantha has taken pictures of all of what I have left and sent it in a email to Napa’s Patrick McMahon ( Sorry not sure of that spelling ) Maybe when Zam is not to busy ,she can post them on my thread ? It was after my emails, and Katana’s conversation to that Napa Det. he then contacted Tom V. and read his message board.

Hi Sandy,

that would be really great (pictures)., thanks for your kind information.

QT

Taking this thread "Off Topic" But here’s the link to the pictures, Sandy spoke of on page 5. http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … andy-s-poi

Seagull, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:25 pm

I have posted a larger copy of the Nov. 12, 1969 Chronicle article that Duckking posted on page 1 of this thread. There were three Zodiac articles in the issue of the newspaper that day. The first mentions the shirt piece contained in one of the letters, though it is not clear which letter, Nov. 8 or Nov. 9, the shirt piece was in. Talk of a Luger in the second article, Smithy!

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … 1969#34018

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:16 pm

I have posted a larger copy of the Nov. 12, 1969 Chronicle article that Duckking posted on page 1 of this thread. There were three Zodiac articles in the issue of the newspaper that day. The first mentions the shirt piece contained in one of the letters, though it is not clear which letter, Nov. 8 or Nov. 9, the shirt piece was in. Talk of a Luger in the second article, Smithy!

D. thanks again for this – fabulous.
"Over there" on that thread, I said yes, and the Lugers wrong! I should say so over here too, shouldn’t I. Should I?
Whilst I haven’t seen the ballistics report from BRS yet – and none of us have – it’s now been referred to by two different authors with (I presume) some inside knowledge. Both are alledging the BRS weapon was a Browning Hi-Power.
Forgive me for spamming this thread (and the other one!) with this info.
I’m trying to confirm it.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:45 am

If your still counting shirt pieces I have another article for you.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … -ten#34172

This article says that several of the letters contained swatches of the shirt. Will it never end? BTW this information is contrary to two different DOJ reports which both say two letters contained pieces of the bloody shirt.

bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:40 pm

OK, back to the shirt. I found the source of the color pics of the shirt pieces. Here’s the video, it’s towards the end. The narrator explains something about two pieces mailed in, then a third, with a picture of this chap apparently pulling out piece 3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xE1veHknVo

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:55 pm

Well done mate, but they SAY three pieces, and only show two. I’d swear, but I’m not allowed to.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:14 pm

Burger Me!!!!!!

Took one for the UK team lol.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:33 am

Good work with the burger, Trav!
Damnit – two pieces. Horan’s dodged another one here.
The piece that’s in the Chronicle for 18th October is on the bottom left, and it’s "C". The last piece the guy got in the video.
The rectangular holes line up nicely, now it’s the right way up.
There’s a whole stripe missing from the black and white version "C" – the same one as at bottom right.
I guess law enforcement chopped a strip off it. DAMN!

I’ve spent the last 30 minutes trying to find another recognisably different piece in the public domain, and I can’t.
Oh well, live and learn. :clown:

sandy betts, Subject: Third piece of shirt Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:03 am

I don’t know what burger me means , but burger me too ! Make It a double.

Could anyone tell me what is in his left hand that looks like a third piece of the shirt ? Look at the video again at 3:13.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:37 am

Sandy you’re so right. Make mine a double too – with cheese!

I think that’s piece "C" he has in his hand. That’s "B" that’s lying on the table already although sideways, annoyingly, rather than the right way up. It needs rotating anti-clockwise ninety degrees. (It’s SO sad. I’m seeing these in my sleep).

If you’re wondering why "C" appears to be completely rock hard, like a piece of board, I am too. Is that what happens to blood-stained shirts? I suppose it might be dry and brittle now. * shrug *
Otherwise I can only presume it’s backed with something, or they’ve conducted some other experiment with it – beyond cutting a slice off the side to make me look like an idiot, that is. (I’m taking that personally, I realise.)

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:47 am

Sorry folks – all this is said already I realise, but a summary is required – and there’s room for doubt, as usual!!
(Tracers asked me about this on the "Tommy Horan" thread. It’s her fault then. But since this is independent of Mr Horan’s whacky theory, just something he’s brought to light, I think it deserves this thread).

Here we go again, then!
The wonderful photograph of pieces "B" and "C" shows the TWO pieces returned in the letters, we’re told. Piece "A" has never been seen again.

All photographs in the public domain SEEM to show those two pieces – only. Some places they’re in colour, sometimes upside-down or transposed vertically.
Here. "B" and "C" in place, and another colour shot of "C", called "John’s piece", of the type which was driving me to drink.

Important things to bear in mind, if you’re shirt chasing.

There are two rectangular holes cut into piece "C" – now – and one rectangle cut into piece "B". I presume as the result of some sort of testing.
They can help you line up what you find on the net, and to recognise each piece. Again, some places they’re photographed in colour, sometimes upside-down or transposed vertically. Sometimes they are seriously fore-shortened, making them look tiny. (It’s a wonderful life.)

Secondly – and pretty darn importantly to avoid Smithy trap number two… Piece "C" seems to have had a stripe cut off. :affraid:
I’m still looking for pieces because I’m still not sure I believe the "stripes been cut off" thing, Stare at the photo and maybe you’ll see why….

bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:51 am

Smithy, watch this video again, fast forward past Fouke. You will see the tech looking at the envelope in his hand, which matches the two already on the table, and begin to set down whatever is in his left hand, a portion of which is visible against the backdrop of the envelop in the capture below, the last frame before they cut away. I think it’s either a third shirt piece or a cheeseburger, my money’s on the former. So why didn’t they show a shot of that piece along with the other two? Probably because they didn’t figure on a bunch of nut jobs dissecting this a decade later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xE1veHknVo

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:50 am

So why didn’t they show a shot of that piece along with the other two? Probably because they didn’t figure on a bunch of nut jobs dissecting this a decade later.

Hey…speak for yourself! :tongue:

Seriously, I don’t think there is any shirt conspiracy here.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:04 pm

Bentley – troublesome ain’t it!
Can we get more shirt pictures in, and put them in a pile?
I think there’s some kind of conspiracy, preventing me eating nuts and cheeseburgers. (I may have misunderstood what you’ve said).

bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:31 pm

That footage is from ABC Primetime, circa 2003, or so it says. Apparently you can buy the whole episode online, though it may show no more than what we see.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:53 am

I’ve found another article which mentions the shirt pieces. This one says there were two shirt pieces in the Stine letter. I view the newspaper articles as a last resort for information compared to what is in the official reports ie: police reports, CA DOJ reports and the FBI files. Although, even the official reports occasionally contradict each other.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:24 pm

Lol…yes, I agree Seagull. Great find, but we know how these darn newspapers are!

"Enclosed were two pieces of the shirt of taxi driver Paul Steine".

, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:39 pm

Good work with the burger, Trav!
Damnit – two pieces. Horan’s dodged another one here.
The piece that’s in the Chronicle for 18th October is on the bottom left, and it’s "C". The last piece the guy got in the video.
The rectangular holes line up nicely, now it’s the right way up.
There’s a whole stripe missing from the black and white version "C" – the same one as at bottom right.
I guess law enforcement chopped a strip off it. DAMN!

I’ve spent the last 30 minutes trying to find another recognisably different piece in the public domain, and I can’t.
Oh well, live and learn. :clown:

Smithy,

I see no possible way that John’s piece is piece C. For one, there do not appear to be any rectangular cuts at all in the color piece… and no matter how ya flip and rotate, those stains simply do not match up.

-A

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:47 pm

You think I’ve found that extra piece already thebigZ? Good – I’ll stop!
I wonder what they treated the pieces with that made those blotches become so diverse btw? Even"B" is barely recognisable isn’t it?
(You think that’s B? I think it is.)

Seagull – thanks again. You think there really was a reporter at the Chronicle called "Baron Muller?"
Seems hard to believe!

, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:01 am

Smithy,

I found a clear pic of the missing piece (piece A)… sent you a PM.

It is most certainly NOT piece C.

From this video @37:32…

And it’s labeled "A"!!!Cold Case Files – The Zodiac Killer

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:10 am

Ah, at last! It’s the holy ruddy grail, I tell you!
From what you say in PM it’s just where Bentley said it might be too eh?
So much for the "stripe cut off" BS I was forced to resort to in the face of Mr Horans scornful dismissals, eh?
Right – it needs to be posted "over there". First things first though, a decent graphic putting the pieces about where they should be….. Guesswork on "A" may be needed – although if it’s "John’s piece" then where he’s fitting it in the AP promo photo would be the place, no?
Bravo big man!

Edit: Second thoughts – let’s play graphics second.
Good stuff, once again. A reasonably new vid. eh? Awesome…….

bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:44 am

Great find bigZ. I knew that wasn’t a cheeseburger…

Those rectangles were perhaps cut out after the 1969 photos for testing done later. Odd they seem to be cut only out of white stripe sections. Did they find visible evidence there, prints?

, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:48 am

Great find bigZ. I knew that wasn’t a cheeseburger…

Those rectangles were perhaps cut out after the 1969 photos for testing done later. Odd they seem to be cut only out of white stripe sections. Did they find visible evidence there, prints?

I think it was just because the blood stains showed more clearly on the white stripes. I’d assumed they were going to test some of the blood (DNA, etc.).

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:49 am

Bentley – ahhhhh, no cheeseburgers, no nuts.
ONE of those "slots" looks drawn on to me (?) as if to redact some writing (I know that sounds odd). And what’s with the writing anyway?
Why test it intrusively? But……

YES – that’s John’s piece – piece"A", and it was called that because it was the first to arrive (how marvellously non-mysterious), and it turned up in the "Stine" letter of October13th.
It makes sense Criminologist John Williams was photographed with it – it’s the only piece that had been returned at the time. Wow.
It will force a re-think of warp and weft cutting, Dear Editor’s truthfulness and many other things I suspect. Hmmmmmm!

bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:31 am

I don’t see that either vertical side of A matches up with the right side verticals of B or C, based on stripes or blood stains. Meaning that there would be another piece between them, and piece A is further towards the right side of the back of the shirt. Meaning that whoever sent in the shirt pieces took the whole enchilada, didn’t leave one piece dangling in the middle between B/C and A for someone else to come along and grab.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:00 pm

I don’t see that either vertical side of A matches up with the right side verticals of B or C, based on stripes or blood stains. Meaning that there would be another piece between them, and piece A is further towards the right side of the back of the shirt. Meaning that whoever sent in the shirt pieces took the whole enchilada, didn’t leave one piece dangling in the middle between B/C and A for someone else to come along and grab.

Now Bentley old stick, it’s a large shirt-tail but that’s no reason to take such big jumps with it!
If you look at the "John hunched over the shirt doing clever stuff" photo, he’s got the piece toward one side of the rest – I think (it’s upside down if I’m right), over toward the "B" and "C" pieces. That leaves plenty of shirt to go around.
If I were going to speculate too (oh alright then), and if we’re still trying to play hoax, I’d say that whoever took the first piece took less than we might have thought before, which is perhaps even a good thing, hmm? Who tears NEARLY all the way across a shirt and then stops?
ANYWAY – it’s Mr Horan who will have to duck and dive on this one, so I’ll leave it to him before I get my striped shirt out of the cupboard again and start taking photos.
Y’know he replied to my initial concerns on the issue by saying he "could understand my confusion", and that he has no such qualms since he has the high-res photos but sadly, no rights to publish them. Can he have been BS’ing me? Surely not!

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:10 pm

Oy! Actually it fits against "B" quite nicely, well the bloodstains do – it’s upside-down, here,
It’s also a bit tough to see that with the yellow-background "B" – much easier to see on the black and white "B + C" photo.
I haven’t got a decent drawing package to rotate it with, – and so I have to play in Word and then save an image, but I’ll give it a go…..

There.
Or am I drunk again?

doranchak, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:32 pm

Here’s a good lineup of the picture of the John’s piece against the still from the video:

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:35 pm

Ah D., that’s bloomin’ marvellous stuff.
The flashing on and off is making me froth a bit – but see how there’s no blood line-up on the top right corner? Well well!
Either John has it the wrong way up and in the wrong place, or I do. And he’s a qualified criminologist. Hmmm.

sandy betts, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:52 pm

It shows that there were three parts of the shirt sent, but that a part is still missing I think? Knowing what we do about serial killers and Zodiac. I think Zodiac has kept a part of the shirt as a memento, but that he tore only one large piece, and split it up later in sections to mail with his letters. Remember also that he used that piece to wipe down the cab , so how could the blood stains line up to the rest of the shirt after doing that ?

, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:05 pm

It shows that there were three parts of the shirt sent, but that a part is still missing I think? Knowing what we do about serial killers and Zodiac. I think Zodiac has kept a part of the shirt as a memento, but that he tore only one large piece, and split it up later in sections to mail with his letters. Remember also that he used that piece to wipe down the cab , so how could the blood stains line up to the rest of the shirt after doing that ?

He wasn’t necessarily showing (definitively) where the piece went. There are a couple different pictures with that piece oriented in different directions. Fair to say John may have been trying to figure it out for himself when the pic was taken.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:07 pm

Fair enough, Big guy. What do you think of it next to "B"?
And about the bloodstains – yes, well, and hmmmm.

BTW, please don’t watch the rest of that video, anyone, since it’s full of utter baloney, like GS saying "He called it ‘His game of outdoor chess" and also "He gave them clues, he told them when he was going to strike" . It will upset you, probably. Yeeeech.

, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:23 pm

Fair enough, Big guy. What do you think of it next to "B"?
And about the bloodstains – yes, well, and hmmmm.

BTW, please don’t watch the rest of that video, anyone, since it’s full of utter baloney, like GS saying "He called it ‘His game of outdoor chess" and also "He gave them clues, he told them when he was going to strike" . It will upset you, probably. Yeeeech.

I agree that it may slide right in next to B. Blood stains seem to match up nicely.

bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:36 pm

It shows that there were three parts of the shirt sent, but that a part is still missing I think? Knowing what we do about serial killers and Zodiac. I think Zodiac has kept a part of the shirt as a memento, but that he tore only one large piece, and split it up later in sections to mail with his letters. Remember also that he used that piece to wipe down the cab , so how could the blood stains line up to the rest of the shirt after doing that ?

Yes, most definitely a large section of shirt is still unaccounted for. Pieces were mailed in Oct., Nov. and Dec. of ’69. Twice to prove it was Stine’s killer and once to prove authorship to Belli. The next letter would not be received until April of ’70. I think by that time the shirt pieces had served their purpose and were no longer needed for provenance, whatever became of the rest.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:45 pm

Bentley – have you made sense of all the references which say there was or wasn’t a piece, or two, in (each) letter? Wanna share?
I thought I had that figured out, but then I went off on a shirt chase, and now I don’t know.
Do you take into account that one of them says "ask the Vallejo cop about my electric gunsight" too? Just wonderin’.

bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:52 pm

I thought this was explanatory enough Smithy, you see a problem with it do you?

Gun sight reference in the Nov ’69 letter? I took it to mean: "The shirt piece proves I killed Stine, the electric gun sight proves I’m the guy who killed in the North Bay and calls himself Zodiac". Therefore, the Zodiac killed Stine.

You’re the whiz at communication, have I missed something?

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:13 am

Well, that’s fine with me. I think we started the thread with that view, no?
When we looked at a Chronicle article from Tahoe, we doubted it, then we looked at Seagull’s ’72 article, also from the Chronicle (Avery, no less), which seemed to be saying "there were two shirt pieces in the Stine letter", and further doubted it. Ah me, the Chronicle, wrong, wrong, wrong.

I like this lists "view", too. From SFPD to the Feds. It’s the same, but perhaps a bit clearer? Cut down version:

And pieces went into these letters:
13th October "I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St + Maple St last night, to prove this here is a blood stained piece of his shirt"
9th November "This is the Zodiac speaking up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 people." – and….
20th December "Dear Melvin, This is the Zodiac speaking I wish you a happy Christmass."

I’m pleased with this, you guys. There’s very little physical evidence in the case, let’s face it, so sorting this out’s great. All three ABC shirt pictures haven’t been properly oriented before, "in public" I don’t think, and it’s been a puzzle for a while. You can tell that from the photos which are floating around with numbers on the stripes; so whey-hey and well done.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:29 am

And pieces went into these letters:
13th October "I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St + Maple St last night, to prove this here is a blood stained piece of his shirt"
9th November "This is the Zodiac speaking up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 people." – and….
20th December "Dear Melvin, This is the Zodiac speaking I wish you a happy Christmass."

Wrong! Phooey.
The Dripping Pen card had the second piece of shirt in, not the letter. It was sent on 8th November.
Jeez, finally.
Why the two communications, one day apart?
I wonder if there was something in the Chronicle (say) of the 8th November, which prompted the letter?

I apologize for asking but does someone know why the fact that Mr. Paul Stine is missing a large piece of his shirt not mentioned in the police report? They mention (ad lib) "victim has no money, no wallet, no keys…..and suspect may be in possession of keys and wallet". I assume if they wanted to withhold the detail of the possibly missing fabric, that or the instruction to withhold that information would have been mentioned in a report somewhere and not left to wild speculation by another author/investigator whose blog I was reading last night.

Pardon for not posting a link to the document(s) as I don’t think we have that here and don’t want to impose on Mr. Butterfield and Mr. Voigt.

I apologize for asking but does someone know why the fact that Mr. Paul Stine is missing a large piece of his shirt not mentioned in the police report? They mention (ad lib) "victim has no money, no wallet, no keys…..and suspect may be in possession of keys and wallet". I assume if they wanted to withhold the detail of the possibly missing fabric, that or the instruction to withhold that information would have been mentioned in a report somewhere and not left to wild speculation by another author/investigator whose blog I was reading last night.

Pardon for not posting a link to the document(s) as I don’t think we have that here and don’t want to impose on Mr. Butterfield and Mr. Voigt.

I don’t know if that instruction would be in certain reports necessarily or if it is then maybe we just haven’t seen them. Would that sort of thing be more ‘internal memo’ territory rather than reports?

Take Berryessa, I think I’m right in thinking that "by knife" was withheld, was it in any reports? I mean that information I know I haven’t seen any instruction about withholding the info but I’m just wondering if it was mentioned in the reports – it probably was, wasn’t it? I should check but it’s nearly bedtime. I’m just wondering how another LEA handled withheld info in regards to their reports. SFPD may have had a different policy whereby withheld info was left out of reports. Probably due to leaks to the press and such activities. If they wanted to make sure something stayed withheld they probably had to keep it secret and contained whereas maybe smaller agencies didn’t have such problems, or at least not enough of them to have think and operate that way.

Well, I believe this other investigator is theorizing that someone besides The Zodiac authored the Z letters and a certain S.F. newspaper may or may not have accurately reported the piece(s) of Stine’s shirt.

We are extremely limited as far as the SFPD’s reports. It could be it is mentioned, we just have not seen it.

I apologize for asking but does someone know why the fact that Mr. Paul Stine is missing a large piece of his shirt not mentioned in the police report? They mention (ad lib) "victim has no money, no wallet, no keys…..and suspect may be in possession of keys and wallet". I assume if they wanted to withhold the detail of the possibly missing fabric, that or the instruction to withhold that information would have been mentioned in a report somewhere and not left to wild speculation by another author/investigator whose blog I was reading last night.

Pardon for not posting a link to the document(s) as I don’t think we have that here and don’t want to impose on Mr. Butterfield and Mr. Voigt.

Vic – no sensible answer to that. I’ve no doubt there’s a nice long discussion about this somewhere, but we ain’t got access to it.

Now, some people believe that the shirt’s entire tail was removed after Paul was undressed and in the morgue – and his clothes were in the evidence locker. That it was placed face down on a table and then cut through with a scalpel, in a nice straight line, by some miscreant, it’s no surprise that it’s not discussed, then, maybe. (Maybe not).

I hope I’m not mucking threads up but:
01. this shirttail dilemma, 02. the statement by The Zodiac at LB that he was an escaped convict, but wears an elaborate disguise in broad daylight to kill a couple, both for reasons unknown, before he makes for Mexico in their car which he doesn’t take after all his trouble, and calls the police on himself, 03. then one month later supposedly the same "convict on the run" appears without his black hood, with totally different hair, looking years older, and maybe a few lbs lighter, to kill the next lone cabbie that came his way in the middle of San Francisco on a Saturday night, 04. then possibly later gets scraps of the murder victim’s shirt somehow to mail so the public know he’s back at work? 05. And apparently stops killing and writing, almost, altogether two years later.

Okay but this sounds a bit contrived.

Yes, it does.

Hey guys, I am a newbie here but this bit with Paul Stine’s shirt is really fascinating and got me thinking. Please help me clarify this as I absorb all this minutae.

I too have been combing through Horan’s theories and I think like most of us who don’t agree with him, arrive back at Stine’s murder and the shirt. I would LOVE to see some original crime photos of this scene, if they are in existence, to see if this thing was ripped at the scene or if a bit of shirt could be seen as absent from the body. It would be a whole lot harder to imagine a reporter or EMT reaching in and grabbing a bit of the shirt. Not to go too deep into it but this wasn’t a "Z" type killing and I find it hard to believe someone would decide that this was a crime worthy of pinning on a fictional killer. But if the shirt was shown intact in an original crime scene photo that’s freaking questionable. Someone could have taken a bit of the shirt at the lab or in the ride down.

I am not sufficiently convinced of his theories to really have that be of concern, but I would love to nail that down for myself.

Another comment I wanted to jump in with is what it says about the person being a left or a righty. Presumably Z puts Stine’s body in his lap as he rips a bit of the shirt. And I think it must be said, by a woman who has sewn and handled cloth most of her life, that ripping a shirt of this thinness can be done with a minimal of cutting. You could literally take a slit from the bottom seam on either side, and rip up both sides in seconds. No cutting. The only real cutting (and we are talking about CUTTING, not nicking, which would be all you would have to do through that bottom seam to start a good rip) would be the top horizontal rip, that final rip to get the piece off. Dependent on the cloth, you might have to cut across, if the grain and weave is such that it doesn’t run straight across or straight down as in most cotton fabrics. This looks like your basic cotton shirt to me, so one little horizontal nick and it rips clean right across the grain with minimal effort. I bet it would have taken all of 10 seconds. Obviously the guy made a hood, he knew how to sew, he knew the behavior of fabric and I am sure this happened rapidly. But I am wondering with the positioning of the body if there is any indication of what direction he ripped first? From the photos it looked like the shirt was ripped from the left side, if Paul Stine is facing downward in your lap. Intuition seems that it would mean he was lefthanded. Thoughts?

We can’t see the back of Stine’s shirt in the crime scene photos. We can see that his shirt was yanked up to his chest.

This post by QT links to several relevant crime scene pictures. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1213#p12030

What you suggest makes sense to me, mysterymachine – and as far as I know there is no other evidence which would (very) strongly suggest that Z was NOT left handed. He could have been either – or ambidextrous, as has been suggested many times!

Anyway, Stine’s shirt was clearly fairly thin so ripping it would have been relatively easy once he got a tear going, as you suggest. Had Z decided to take this macabre "souvenir" before he hailed Stine’s cab, i.e. as part of a comprehensive strategy? What if Stine had worn a thick flannel shirt on the night?

As far as crime scene pictures go, there are some which show Stine with his shirt seemingly pulled up at the back (EDIT Like the one Coffee Time posted above). I’ve always thought this was the state he was in when they found him, i.e. with the shirt in that position – left that way by Z after tearing off the swatch – which would explain why it wasn’t noticed until the body was examined at the morgue.

The fact that Z was observed seemingly with Stine "in his lap" (one may question the accuracy of this phrase – the teen witnesses may have misinterpreted some of Z’s movements) is consistent with him tearing off a piece of the shirt – and as such indicates that it was indeed done by the killer (and not by a prankster at the morgue).

The latter theory is very unlikely, I think. I fail to see either the motive or the relatively large conspiracy which would be required in order to make it work. And on top of that, there’s the nature of the Stine situation itself: As you rightly suggest, Stine would have been a very risky choice. The hoaxer was in a rush here, it would seem. Why? He couldn’t wait to get that letter (with the shirt piece) in the mail – and in the meantime Stine’s real killer could have been caught at any time. He could have been positively identified by the teens across the street for all the hoaxer knew. It makes little sense – to me, at least.

The problem with the Z case is that there are enough holes, discrepancies and contradictions to last a conspiracy theorist a lifetime. If only an officer or a medic at the crime scene had been keen-eyed enough to observe that Stine’s shirt had been torn…but, sadly, nobody did.

Ugh, any way to link to that image instead? or at least give a content warning. Everyone on here is probably Ok with it, but you never know, some people might not want to see huge bloody murder pictures of real human beings.

Sorry to be the moral authority all the time, but I think it’s kind of disrespectful to Paul. A lot of times on TV they show murder victims and I think that if we did need to know how about the crime scene, which we the audience usually don’t, then the details of the coroner would actually be far more helpful than just the photo. It seems gratuitous.

PS. I’m pretty sure that those pictures show Paul after the paramedics arrived on the scene, as the RO reports that Stine was inside of the car when he got there, not partway out as you can see.

To clarify: What I’ve always thought is that Stine’s shirt was in that position (yanked up and crumpled, making it difficult to detect that a piece was missing), not that Stine himself was in that particular position when they found him: He was seemingly moved before the pictures were taken and they may even have removed his glasses (another debate!) before the photographer went to work.