I found a story a while back about another officer and his partner seeing who they thought was Zodiac as well.

—Officer Jerry Senkir who said he was one of two officers there that night who wondered if he let Zodiac "slip through his fingers". Tom talked to him after I posted about it.

http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/5 … dCzbvlVhBc — (see page 3 for original article)

I think the more logical explanation is that times were simply mixed up. Is it possible Fouke and Zelms didn’t see Zodiac? Sure, anything is possible–I just don’t think so.

2. Cherry takes 1 minute to walk, then 2 minutes to Jackson/Maple. Total 3 minutes….

If Zodiac walked casually down Cherry Street so as not to draw attention to himself, but then broke into a "shuffling lope" once he passed the corner, he could’ve scooted down Jackson Street in a lot less time than two minutes. I would imagine a shuffling lope would be at least twice as fast as a casual walk.

Also, when someone says the time is, say 9:58, that could mean a second past 9:57, or one second before 9:59.

So let’s say Zodiac leaves the crime scene at 9:58:30
The dispatch is at 9:58:50
Pelissetti arrives at 9:59:30, which, by the clock, is about a minute after the dispatch. He just misses seeing Zodiac.
Z is shuffling his butt off down Jackson Street when Foulke spots him about 9:59:55, which is 65 seconds after the dispatch.

This gives Z a minute to walk down Cherry, and about a half minute to lope most of the way down Jackson
It gives Pelissetti 40 seconds to reach the cab, and it gives Foulke 65 seconds to reach the point Z leaves Jackson St.

You present an interesting case, but a few seconds difference here or there explains it all.

The proverbial fly in this ointment is that forgetting about the times presented in reports, what is crucial to understand is the timing of the encounters. Fouke did not run into Z until Pelissetti was well up Cherry Street, which took place after Lindsey had gesticulated to him that Z was at the corner of Jackson and Cherry, after Pelissetti had then walked over to and looked into the cab, after he herded the kids into the alcove of the home, after he spoke to them about the description, and after he had radioed the new description in to Dispatch. Fouke passed by the man and then continued to Cherry, turned down Cherry and ran into Pelissetti. Therefore, Fouke saw Z well after Lindsey had seen Z get to the corner and then "disappear" from his view, as he was distracted by the police car arriving at the scene.

Mike

I know exactly what you mean Mike, but Donald Fouke never said in any report he turned into Cherry and met Pelissetti. As you alluded this is impossible. He did however say this in the 2007 documentary. But if we go on memories, it’s clear he traveled onward past Cherry to Arguello Boulevard, where he stated in the 1989 documentary he got the amended update.
We know that Donald Fouke in the 1989 ‘Crimes of the Century’ documentary, stated that after receiving the initial broadcast "We proceeded on Jackson Street towards Arguello continuing our search, as we arrived at Arguello Street the description of the suspect was changed to a white male adult, believing this suspect was possibly the one involved in the shooting we entered the Presidio of San Francisco and conducted a search on West Pacific Avenue, the opposite side of the wall and the last direction we observed the suspect going, we did not find the suspect." The question arose, as to why Donald Fouke was heading towards Arguello Boulevard, away from the crime scene of an "assault and robbery," when he should have been heading towards it. The logical assumption was that he did indeed stop ‘Zodiac,’ and Zodiac directed him that way.
This is why he never bumped into Pelissetti in Cherry at this jucture. After realizing the man he had just passed could be Zodiac, after the amended update, he continued on Arguello and into West Pacific Avenue continuing his search up to Julius Khan playground. After failing to spot anything he returned to Cherry, then meets Pelissetti. Now the timeline fits.

2. Cherry takes 1 minute to walk, then 2 minutes to Jackson/Maple. Total 3 minutes….

If Zodiac walked casually down Cherry Street so as not to draw attention to himself, but then broke into a "shuffling lope" once he passed the corner, he could’ve scooted down Jackson Street in a lot less time than two minutes. I would imagine a shuffling lope would be at least twice as fast as a casual walk.

Also, when someone says the time is, say 9:58, that could mean a second past 9:57, or one second before 9:59.

So let’s say Zodiac leaves the crime scene at 9:58:30
The dispatch is at 9:58:50
Pelissetti arrives at 9:59:30, which, by the clock, is about a minute after the dispatch. He just misses seeing Zodiac.
Z is shuffling his butt off down Jackson Street when Foulke spots him about 9:59:55, which is 65 seconds after the dispatch.

This gives Z a minute to walk down Cherry, and about a half minute to lope most of the way down Jackson
It gives Pelissetti 40 seconds to reach the cab, and it gives Foulke 65 seconds to reach the point Z leaves Jackson St.

You present an interesting case, but a few seconds difference here or there explains it all.

I know what your saying Marshall, but if Pelissetti arrives at 9.59:30 and Zodiac is at the top of Cherry (which is what the kids said), then Fouke sees Zodiac near the intersection of Jackson and Maple at 9.59:55, it has taken Zodiac 25 seconds to travel this section of Jackson, which is 145 meters in length. That is 5.8 meters a second. That is 17 seconds for 100 meters. The average person would struggle to sprint 14/15 seconds for 100 meters, especially a gut bucket like Zodiac. The shuffling lope would be more like a ballistic missile (maybe a slight exaggeration).

"p.s. 2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab." I see no reason for Zodiac to lie on this occasion.

Both Fouke’s & the kids descriptions of Zodiac were essentially the same. I think it’s more likely there is a minute off here and there in the sightings

These analyses where people parse every second of the night of the Stine murder have been used to little effect before to "prove" that Fouke had "enough time" to speak to Z and that this therefore "definitely happened," etc. Not convincing, and as Mike said, not only would there have to have been two Z’ that night but they both would have had to be dressed similarly to one another and to have looked like one another. As Fincher might say, "Too Doppelganger-ish".

Mike

We will never get the exact happenings of the evening especially between Pelessetti and Fouke, they don’t like each other, and I believe they didn’t like each other before 10/11/69. 2 sgts, from the same precinct who work the same shifts on the same evening they know each other very well. They sure don’t act like that at all. If they receive the dispatch at the same time, and if what Fouke says is accurate that he was approaching Washington St. on Presidio (we don’t know where Pel was, he has never said, other than very close), then Fouke is 1 min. 15 secs from encountering Pel at Jackson and Cherry. Now Pel doesn’t say the kid was at Cherry and Wash. looking down the st. telling Pel. he can see the guy. Pel has stated that as he pulls up on Wash. & Cherry he sees the kid crossing the street going towards the cab and he intercepts the kid and walks him back to his front door. Then the kid tells Pel, that the guy is white, Pel. then walks over to the cab to look at Stine, sees that he is dead. all this is happening while Fouke is coming up Jackson. Pel says he couldn’t get to his squad car fast enough to update dispatch, he doesn’t say that’s what he did do. But if he did, times up, Fouke is already at Cherry and Jackson. You would think in almost 50 years we could at least get those two together and figure out the timeline so it comes close to working.
When they do meet at Jackson & Cherry, here’s what each says; Fouke says "Pel. never told me the perp was white and that the cabbie was murdered"…..Pel says, "Well Fouke never told me he saw anyone on Jackson". So we need to ask these 2, then what in the hell did you talk about? the Niners? C’mon. Fouke says he didn’t hear the perp was white and the cabbie was dead until he left Pel. and was heading W. on Jackson towards Arguello. that’s their story. Pel. is the RO on this case, and Fouke is the one who leads all of the SFPD into the park, like he said, he assumed that’s where Z went. He had to assume it cause last he saw Z was at 3712/3713 Jackson St.

"You would think in almost 50 years we could at least get those two together and figure out the timeline so it comes close to working." Using the testimony of Donald Fouke and Armond Pelissetti, and one perpetrator
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-new … -by-minute

Something else that does not make sense to me and goes to your question as to when exactly Fouke and Pelisetti met. I’m paraphrasing the latter….he took his time going up Cherry st. as there were many alcoves and he didn’t want to get ambushed. He got to Cherry and Jackson and was deliberating which way to go. He could see no one at the Presidio wall or on the streets and as he was on the east side of Cherry. decided to head east on Jackson. My point….no mention of meeting Fouke!
Fouke in turn says they turned onto Cherry and it was there he had the conversation with Pelisetti. Had that happened one would have thought Pelisetti would have instead headed to the wall at the north end of Cherry figuring Fouke had just come along Jackson and didn’t report seeing anyone.

These analyses where people parse every second of the night of the Stine murder have been used to little effect before to "prove" that Fouke had "enough time" to speak to Z and that this therefore "definitely happened," etc. Not convincing, and as Mike said, not only would there have to have been two Z’ that night but they both would have had to be dressed similarly to one another and to have looked like one another. As Fincher might say, "Too Doppelganger-ish".

Mike

One killer + one cleaner.

Cleaner got off at Maple Street. Killer went one block more to Cherry. Got Stine to pull over and performed the kill. Leaves the gun. Exits quickly in a bee line to somewhere. Cleaner arrives on foot. His job is to inspect the situation. If all is still clear he goes in for the goods especially the shirt piece. He will have little to no blood on him. He will carry the murder weapon away. This is the man the kids and Fouke saw.

The reason why the all points bulletin was looking for a black male was because a black male was the suspect in the taxi robberies that had gone on recently in San Francisco.

The cleaner is also the writer of the letter as he is the one who describes the taxi stopping on Maple Street and not Cherry…

The gloves left in the cab were not retrieved by the cleaner but were left there by the killer. Too bloody maybe?

Fouke probably did not drive down Cherry Street but carried straight on because he could have looked down there and seen that the suspect wasn’t there but Pelissetti’s car was. That explains why he would drive to Arguello and stop only to return and realise their mistake with the revised all points bulletin. They saw no one but that one guy. At this point Pelissetti is looking for the Zodiac as Fouke has already driven past the top of the Cherry.

IMO Pelissetti probably decided to avoid chasing after the Zodiac until everything was in the clear. If he had in fact given a full chase earlier he would almost certainly have disturbed the Zodiac running into Fouke and Zelms. If he had of continued on he and Fouke would have boxed Zodiac in.

Come on, you can make it more convoluted than that, can’t you?

Oh yeah and one more thing. It explains why Stine recorded Washington + Maple also. This is important because the Zodiac Stine letter also states this same location BUT the taxi was not parked at that intersection. It was one block more to Washington + Cherry. That was inside knowledge not made public and reporters would have recorded Washington + Cherry. Rules out a copycat/hoax writer.

Also we know from the witnesses that the Zodiac seemed to create a greater distance than he needed as he turned East onto Jackson St and walked back towards Maple St. Why?

What the Zodiac actually did (Cherry) and what it seems he should have done (Maple) is as much a mystery as the timing issues in the witness accounts.