People have been speculating (and not unreasonably either) that perhaps Z’s "project" was a limited one to begin with: That he intended to complete some kind of circle, say, possibly even something vaguely astrological in nature (hence the moniker he chose for himself).

If this is true (at least to an extent), it’s certainly possible that Stine was his intended last victim – and indeed an all-or-nothing type of deal.

I think it was Ed Neil who once speculated that Z’s original intention was to make Berryessa his final, murderous statement (hence the ceremonial garb and so forth) – but when he realized that he had failed to kill BH, he had to strike again – and soon – to finish whatever it was he had in mind.

Makes sense on some levels – yet it’s problematic on others. Story of the Z case, I guess.

I think I would have to agree with Ed Neil that Berryessa was probably where the Zodiac would have ended his killing spree. Throw in the possible tribute to himself on the car door and seems rather likely. However, in my opinion, Paul Stine was an "all or nothing" crime. He spent way too much time at this crime scene than was necessary and he did so collecting those swatches. Somewhere between Berryessa and Stine the Zodiac realized he needed those swatches to stay in the game. Why? Who knows.

Soze

Why indeed…if they were just for confirmation (proof that he was the sender of the letters), he could have opted for something less grotesque, like Stine’s driver’s license (which he also took but never sent).

I think – but my thinking on this changes all the time – that the shirt was either:

a) necessary: Z messed up in one way or the other and left prints in the cab. He needed something to wipe off those prints. He also realized, naturally, that pieces of a bloody shirt would serve as great, sinister and symbolic confirmations of his identity to go along with the letters he undoubtedly planned to send.

b) an idea which struck him there and then. He didn’t leave any prints (as far as he knew) but decided to take a piece of Stine’s shirt for the symbolism and whatnot.

c) something he had planned on beforehand, again because of the symbolism and whatnot. The problem I have with this option is that it seems to necessitate him bringing along the right tools for the job – and seemingly he did not: Stine’s shirt was torn, not cut. What if he had been wearing a thicker shirt? You can’t easily tear off a piece of any kind of shirt – with Paul’s this was easy, because the fabric was thin and the seams were just right (so to speak). But Z couldn’t possibly know this in advance.

c) something he had planned on beforehand, again because of the symbolism and whatnot. The problem I have with this option is that it seems to necessitate him bringing along the right tools for the job – and seemingly he did not: Stine’s shirt was torn, not cut. What if he had been wearing a thicker shirt? You can’t easily tear off a piece of any kind of shirt – with Paul’s this was easy, because the fabric was thin and the seams were just right (so to speak). But Z couldn’t possibly know this in advance.

Just throwing this out there….don’t hate:

Paul’s sister said his brother Joe gave him that shirt. Sure would like to know when.

There were possibly scratches on Joe’s face and he was quite bold and not threatened when he challenged Zodiac on camera. He had reddish hair with (what some say a "rare") widows peak.

And before people get upset for accusing family, the MAJORITY of the time…it is.

And before people get upset for accusing family, the MAJORITY of the time…it is.

Certainly is. But that stat pretty much goes out the window when dealing with a serial killer – which Z was, after all, albeit a somewhat untypical one.

And before people get upset for accusing family, the MAJORITY of the time…it is.

Certainly is. But that stat pretty much goes out the window when dealing with a serial killer – which Z was, after all, albeit a somewhat untypical one.

There are stranger theories out there… But it’s still not totally out of the question, imo. If you wanted a family member dead and didn’t want to be considered…

It’s October. The weather is cool to downright cold. The Zodiac could have just worn gloves and avoided, not only the use of "airplane cement" but, the fear of potentially leaving any fingerprints behind.

"Airplane cement" is pure hogwash. In my opinion it was nothing more than a clue like all his other "airplane" signs.

Some have speculated that a glove left in the cab was the Zodiac’s. Could certainly have been I suppose but then why take them off?

This leaves the Zodiac with the possibility of exposed fingerprints.

Wouldn’t his jacket have sufficed? Took his forearm and wiped here and there. Maybe pulled his hand into the sleeve, grasping the ends and, began wiping the necessary locations with his covered hand. It would take far less time to do that than it would to tear off a shirt that may have been somewhat to highly difficult to perform. Most men usually have some small pocket knife on them for various reasons and uses. I agree with you that the Zodiac likely didnt have a pocket knife on him; otherwise, he could have saved some time.

It’s been speculated, not sure of its validity to actual police reports, that the Zodiac may have been covered in blood when he left the scene. Seems likely to me but i am no expert. Would he have been concerned about blood on a jacket or even pants for that matter, especially, if he had a parked car in the area? Not saying he had a parked car in the area. I dont know. But he got away somehow.

From the reports we see that the Zodiac’s clothes werw dated (old) and could very well have been worn by design. All could easily have been burned (dont think the Zodiac would have just thrown them away) and never missed by any potential family member he might have had in his immediate life.

This leaves the swatches of shirt having some significance to the Zodiac and/or his master plan. Again, why, i dont know.

Soze

But it’s still not totally out of the question, imo. If you wanted a family member dead and didn’t want to be considered…

Let’s say, for the sake of argument that it WAS his brother. What other parts of the Z series did he commit? Or, rather, what other parts did he have to commit, in order for this to make sense?

The three "bloody shirt" letters must have been him. The 340 must have been him too – otherwise the coincidence is just too big to be believable.

To me there is a very clear connection between ALL of the earlier Z communications (going back to the three-part cipher) and the Stine letter + follow-ups. So, I’m inclined to think that he would have had to be:

At the very least responsible for taking credit for LHR.
Responsible for BRS
Responsible for every Z letter between the three-part and Stine AND responsible for the bus bomb, the 340 and Belli. Arguably also a couple of more letters, post Belli.

We can exclude Berryessa, it being technically much harder to connect.

As you say, crazier theories have been launched. But to me it’s nevertheless pretty crazy to go through all of the above simply in order to create some kind of smoke screen. If Stine’s brother wanted Stine dead, he had the perfect smoke screen right at his fingertips: Cabbie mugging gone wrong. Happened all the time. No need to get insanely creative and pin it on a serial killer.

I hear ya Norse. It sounds crazy I know. There would certainly have to be more too it for him to go that far. I think it was his Vallejo ties (late ’68) and we have this "Claudia" from SF in Darlene’s address book, him being mechanically inclined, him buying his brother the shirt, the taunting of Zodiac, the red hair with widow’s peak…just some things that made some of us thing, "hmmm"…that’s all. By no means does it make him Zodiac.

simplest explanation – he wanted more attention from the papers so he killed someone in the chronicle’s back yard.

every letter after the stine killing, except the one to belli, goes to the chronicle and every letter after stine works to broaden the zodiac mythos, taking it from a murderer of young couples to the boogeyman who will blows up buses, plant bombs, kill children, and secretly commit countless crimes.

from dec 1968 (lhr) to oct 1969 (stine) he sent the three-part cipher letter and the debut of zodiac letter.
from oct 1969 (stine) to jul 1970 (little list letter) he sent nine letters.

a lot of people think killing stine was riskier than his other murders, but in a lot of ways it was less risky. he’s simply a passenger in a cab until he pulls his gun, so there’s no risk at all unless he’s pretty sure he’s in a safe area. for all we know he may have taken ten cab rides that night. he also has the cab driver take him two blocks from a gigantic park, the same park he writes that he used for cover. the biggest risk was taking stine’s shirt as it wastes valuable "getaway" time, but i think this speaks to the larger plan – have evidence that separates your letters from the hoaxers and keep the papers talking about what you’re saying instead of what you’ve done. just my 2 cents.

This Stine discussion is interesting, always is.

The "why" he did it for me is complicated as I believe he was a very sick man who lived a very alternate reality in comparison to our reality. Zodiac had a compulsion to kill and gain attention for doing so. He probably varied between wanting to be apprehended and not wanting to be apprehended. It’s as if he was addicted to "taking slaves" and didn’t know how to stop himself. He likely knew the only things that would stop him were apprehension or death.

I’ve often considered that IF zodiac suffered from delusions it may have effected his reasoning abilities. There are some things that will not ever make sense that he did because those acts were committed by someone who had a very unique mind wrought with chemical embalances and neurotransmitters firing to the wrong receptors.

To attempt to make sense of a madman will drive one mad, so proceed with caution.

I think it’s possible he had business in that area. Maybe he was house sitting, visiting, etc. I definitely do not think he himself lived there. I also think the clue may be WASHINGTON & MAPLE and NOT WASHINGTON & CHERRY.

Maybe the clue is at the corner of Maple, but he thought that he should go one block further to distance himself from the clue.

Thank you Morf, I agree with you 100 percent. He first told Stine Washington and Maple, but decided that was too close to where he was really going , so to throw the police off he shot Stine on Cherry.
Then he proceeds back towards Maple via Jackson street.

I found that several of those homes in that area rented rooms by the day / week etc.

A couple of years ago I was in one of those homes that just happened to have a basement apt. That apt had a back door that lead into the park, directly across from Julius Kahn playground. The windows in that apt , would have been the perfect place for Zodiac to watch everything that went on that night. It gave me a eerie feeling to stand in front of that window , wondering if I was standing in the very spot that Zodiac had.

I would like to know, who’s car was it the that Stine hit with his cab a week or so before the murder ? I think it should be looked into, knowing that Zodiac more than likely had a hair trigger temper, what if it was his car that was hit and he killed Stine because of it ?

The other question I have is, did the police ask about anyone asking for a cab from the area of Washington and Maple earlier that day ? if so that would be a good witness as to what Zodiac looked like earlier that day. He would have still had the rust colored baggy pants and the dark blue/ black derby like jacket on.

That jacket by the way sounds like the same one that was worn at Lake Berryessa.

Sandy,
Those are both very good points. Makes a lot of sense that investigating those may have given some important leads to explore. Am wondering if anyone here has information if this was looked at by LE.

charliemartin

Sandy,
Those are both very good points. Makes a lot of sense that investigating those may have given some important leads to explore. Am wondering if anyone here has information if this was looked at by LE.

Thanks charliemartin, As far as I know no one did. I asked Det. Mike Maloney who was one of the main Det. in charge of the Z case yrs ago , if the accident was looked into and he said no.
I don’t remember if I asked him about the trip sheet for that day.

Perhaps VPD Det.Terry P can ask SFPD those questions ? I have a very good feeling about this new VPD Detective working the Zodiac case , he has the dedication it takes to break this case wide open !