To this day it is not known whether the White Male Adult spotted by Don Fouke on Jackson Street was the Zodiac or an innocent passer by. There are those who believe it was The Zodiac, and those who don’t. Why is this important to the case? Because if this were Zodiac, this means Zodiac was seen without a mask, under streetlights, and by a trained observer. The description (and sketch based on Fouke’s description) given by Fouke, if this can be shown to be Zodiac, becomes extremely important. Here’s why I believe it’s safe to assume that the man seen by Don on Jackson, and the San Francisco Zodiac Killer, are one and the same.
The man seen by Don Presidio Heights is dressed in almost exactly the same clothing as the Man who attacked Bryan & Cecelia at Lake Berryessa.
Hartnell Description: "He (Z) had on pleated pants, either dark blue or black in colour. Can’t remember what he was wearing for shoes but he had on this cotton coat, you’ve seen the kind, you just turn the collar up once, with a zipper down the front." (The footprint found at the scene suggested the killer wore Wingwalker boot’s)
Don Fouke’s Description: We (He and Zelms) turned West on Jackson Street. As we approached Maple Street I noticed, on the North side of the street, a White Male Adult dressed in a Derby, or 3 quarter waist length jacket with elastic at the waist and on the cuffs and a regular flap down collar. (Fouke’s memo describes the colour of the jacket as Dark or Navy blue and that it was a zipper type jacket zipped part way up.) He had a crew cut. He was wearing Rust coloured pleated trousers. He had on engineering type boots."
Also, Don Fouke said the Man’s Gait and posture was unusual and described his motion as "Lumbering Gait, Stumbling along like a semi-limp may have come up in my mind, because he was putting his head down when he spotted the police." (He reports in his memo "Subject at no time appeared in a hurry and walked with a shuffling lope")
An article quotes Mike Mageau, when describing watching the shooter walk back to his vehicle, as saying "Strangely, He walked slowly and with his head down."
The people who described Zodiac as young, in his twenties or thirties, were doing so based only on hearing Z’s voice. (Dave Slaight, Bryan Hartnell). But the girls who saw the man spying on them at Lake Berryessa shortly before Zodiac stabbed Bryan & Cecelia, described the man as "Good looking, in his 40’s". Fouke described the mans age as 35 – 45. He was also asked by his superior how accurate the sketch was that had been released compared with the man he remembers seeing and Fouke said "He looked similar to the man that I had seen on October 11" and then, speaking of Toschi he said "He may have been the inspector that came out to ask me about the composite drawing and I told him the suspect was older and heavier" (Than how he appears in the composite). So, the man seen by Fouke was dressed exactly the same as we know Zodiac was two weeks prior at lake B, walks similar to how Mageau described his attacker walking away (Slow and in no hurry, head down) so for me, it was, without doubt, The Zodiac.
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
I think it was Z that Fouke Spotted. About his description and age. I recently read ‘Skyjack’ about D.B. Cooper. Everyone seated in his general location and the 2 attendants who sat with him on the flight (plane was in the air for over an hour) describe him differently. His hair style and color was described different by the witnesses. His age ranged from mid 30s to mid 50s and even the color of his clothing couldn’t be agreed on. Just another example of how unreliable eye witness testimony can be.
I think it was Z that Fouke Spotted. About his description and age. I recently read ‘Skyjack’ about D.B. Cooper. Everyone seated in his general location and the 2 attendants who sat with him on the flight (plane was in the air for over an hour) describe him differently. His hair style and color was described different by the witnesses. His age ranged from mid 30s to mid 50s and even the color of his clothing couldn’t be agreed on. Just another example of how unreliable eye witness testimony can be.
A very good example. Thanks.
“I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.“
I think it was Z that Fouke Spotted. About his description and age. I recently read ‘Skyjack’ about D.B. Cooper. Everyone seated in his general location and the 2 attendants who sat with him on the flight (plane was in the air for over an hour) describe him differently. His hair style and color was described different by the witnesses. His age ranged from mid 30s to mid 50s and even the color of his clothing couldn’t be agreed on. Just another example of how unreliable eye witness testimony can be.
Yes that’s true, and that’s why I say it’s important if the man Don saw was Zodiac because Don, unlike the average man on the street, is a trained observer.
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
I think it was Z that Fouke Spotted. About his description and age. I recently read ‘Skyjack’ about D.B. Cooper. Everyone seated in his general location and the 2 attendants who sat with him on the flight (plane was in the air for over an hour) describe him differently. His hair style and color was described different by the witnesses. His age ranged from mid 30s to mid 50s and even the color of his clothing couldn’t be agreed on. Just another example of how unreliable eye witness testimony can be.
Yes that’s true, and that’s why I say it’s important if the man Don saw was Zodiac because Don, unlike the average man on the street, is a trained observer.
I agree, Chappie. Not that I discount the PH teens’ eyewitness accounts by any means or necessarily accept Fouke’s but it IS important to consider, especially because their age estimates are so different. If Fouke observed Zodiac, he was in a much better position to give a detailed account. The idea of Z spotting Fouke first inspired this long thread about the encounter:
http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/1 … tlMbuAo6Uk
The premise is that Z almost certainly saw Fouke and Zelms coming at him before they saw him (it’s easier to see a police car with lights speeding at you and than it is to see a lone pedestrian walking along the side of the road). The question posed is whether Zodiac altered his route to avoid a close encounter and/or conversation with Fouke and Zelms and whether he was honest about his route after he encountered them.
Good points. "The question posed is whether Zodiac altered his route to avoid a close encounter and/or conversation with Fouke and Zelms and whether he was honest about his route after he encountered them"
This point specifically has always bothered me because Zodiac is allegedly heading for the Presidio grounds and Julius Kahn Park area. If this is true, then why does he decide to stay on the street, walking down Jackson toward Maple in order to get there? Why does he take this huge risk when it’s unnecessary because there is an entrance onto West Pacific Avenue and The Presidio at the top of Cherry Street. Why does he ignore this far quicker and closer escape route in favour of staying on the lit and populated streets?
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
To this day it is not known whether the White Male Adult spotted by Don Fouke on Jackson Street was the Zodiac or an innocent passer by.
I have no idea why anybody would doubt that the man was Zodiac.
To this day it is not known whether the White Male Adult spotted by Don Fouke on Jackson Street was the Zodiac or an innocent passer by.
I have no idea why anybody would doubt that the man was Zodiac.
Well there is only one argument that I have heard that does have it’s merits for the man not being Z, but even that one can be explained now we know Z turned onto the steps of 3712 Jackson as soon as he saw Don and Eric’s Patrol Car approaching. The argument is one that Armond Pelissetti makes reference to in the 2008 documentary:
"Well, it just so happens that that area is extremely well lit and I cannot imagine him (Fouke) not seeing the shine of blood on the clothing if it had been Zodiac. I feel bad for him if he thinks it was the Zodiac, I don’t think it was."
That’s the main argument for the man not being Z I suppose, the lack of blood seen on the clothing of the man. However, now that Don claims that he last saw the suspect turning and ascending some steps as they approached, that to me explains Don and Eric not seeing the blood stained pants he wore because he would now have his back to the police car as they pulled up parallel with him. It also makes absolute sense that Zodiac would do what Don said he saw him do and turn into the driveway of a house because he’s not going to want to walk into the police headlights with blood soaked trousers and so he’ll turn his back to them.
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
Well there is only one argument that I have heard that does have it’s merits for the man not being Z, but even that one can be explained now we know Z turned onto the steps of 3712 Jackson as soon as he saw Don and Eric’s Patrol Car approaching.
"Know"?
I have zero confidence in that.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
Well there is only one argument that I have heard that does have it’s merits for the man not being Z, but even that one can be explained now we know Z turned onto the steps of 3712 Jackson as soon as he saw Don and Eric’s Patrol Car approaching.
"Know"?
I have zero confidence in that.
Yeah, I don’t really believe that either.
There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer
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So what do you both think, he ran into Julius Kahn Park and hid there avoiding the many dogs, swarm of officers, and the search lights illuminating the entire area? He hasn’t dashed into a car and sped away remember, he’s still there somewhere in the vicinity because he’s able to recount the two groups of parking, the motorcycles going by, the approx distance between the two sets of parked police cars etc. If he wasn’t at or near the scene then to enable him to recall this in his letter, then someone else he knew was and told him.
He mentions the police bikes going by, the parked police cars, and could hear, maybe even see, the dogs also because they never came with two block of him. The bikes, and cars he speaks of are travelling on, or stationary and parked along, West Pacific Avenue. If he walked down the drive of 3712, reiterate IF, then that home has a gated entrance that allows access into the rear garden which back rite onto West Pacific, separated only by the wooden fence.
Why is it such a unlikely scenario that he did walk up the steps and went straight through to the rear garden to hide and wait for the storm of police activity to pass?
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
From this front shot of the home, the gate through to the back garden area is visible.
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
I think he was on the outskirts of it all…probably up on the hill by the entrance looking down. I think hanging out in a backyard of the house he was just seen at (if you want to go that route) wouldn’t be such a good idea. Especially if there were dogs looking for him.
I just don’t buy what Fouke says so many years later. If Fouke would have mentioned the same thing, about the house on Jackson, the cops might have gone to the house…and not the park.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
Seems to me this would be a good a place as any for Z to be hiding, the rear garden of 3712…
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
Could have been Tahoe, I’ve suggest previously he may have been up at the car park overlooking the Presidio in the photo to the left below. Right, the back of 3712 and the fence as seen if you are standing on West Pacific.
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
