Plus, here’s the official listing for the home as it appeared when on the market…

So what do you both think, he ran into Julius Kahn Park and hid there avoiding the many dogs, swarm of officers, and the search lights illuminating the entire area? He hasn’t dashed into a car and sped away remember, he’s still there somewhere in the vicinity because he’s able to recount the two groups of parking, the motorcycles going by, the approx distance between the two sets of parked police cars etc. If he wasn’t at or near the scene then to enable him to recall this in his letter, then someone else he knew was and told him.

He mentions the police bikes going by, the parked police cars, and could hear, maybe even see, the dogs also because they never came with two block of him. The bikes, and cars he speaks of are travelling on, or stationary and parked along, West Pacific Avenue. If he walked down the drive of 3712, reiterate IF, then that home has a gated entrance that allows access into the rear garden which back rite onto West Pacific, separated only by the wooden fence.

Why is it such a unlikely scenario that he did walk up the steps and went straight through to the rear garden to hide and wait for the storm of police activity to pass?

I think you’re half right on that bolded part, Chappie.

I still maintain that the only way he could have remained in the vicinity without being spotted is for him to have run for his car, then slowly cruised through the neighbourhood, watching the search unfold.

So what do you both think, he ran into Julius Kahn Park and hid there avoiding the many dogs, swarm of officers, and the search lights illuminating the entire area? He hasn’t dashed into a car and sped away remember, he’s still there somewhere in the vicinity because he’s able to recount the two groups of parking, the motorcycles going by, the approx distance between the two sets of parked police cars etc. If he wasn’t at or near the scene then to enable him to recall this in his letter, then someone else he knew was and told him.

He mentions the police bikes going by, the parked police cars, and could hear, maybe even see, the dogs also because they never came with two block of him. The bikes, and cars he speaks of are travelling on, or stationary and parked along, West Pacific Avenue. If he walked down the drive of 3712, reiterate IF, then that home has a gated entrance that allows access into the rear garden which back rite onto West Pacific, separated only by the wooden fence.

Why is it such a unlikely scenario that he did walk up the steps and went straight through to the rear garden to hide and wait for the storm of police activity to pass?

I think you’re half right on that bolded part, Chappie.

I still maintain that the only way he could have remained in the vicinity without being spotted is for him to have run for his car, then slowly cruised through the neighbourhood, watching the search unfold.

Nach we were discussing this on the thread ‘One man and his dog’ recently and here’s my POV on that, copied from the aforementioned thread…

"Glad you brought this point up because I meant to do so myself a few days ago after thinking about how the events of that night unfolded.

So, just for the purpose of this one post, let us assume that Zodiac has a vehicle parked up waiting somewhere fairly close by, somewhere either in the vicinity of Jackson and Maple, or as some have otherwise suggested, somewhere on West Pacific Avenue.

First, I personally think there is little doubt that the white male that Don Fouke encountered was the Zodiac. My reasons for doing so are based on Fouke’s description of the suspects clothing being identical to the description given by Bryan Hartnell of his attacker, who we know was certainly ‘Zodiac’, at Lake Berryessa just two short weeks before.

So, we know that in Pacific Heights, Zodiac gets as far as 3712 on Jackson Street before being forced to take evasive action and turn onto that residence pathway to avoid Don and Eric who are approaching. As Don passes by the Zodiac and realises he’s white, he then, in his own words, decides to "Step on the gas." After passing the WMA, He would arrive on Cherry 10 to 20 seconds, at most, later where he stops to talk with Armond Pelissetti. At this point, Armond enlightens Don on the description update, and Don immediately realises that the guy he just passed 45, maybe 60 seconds ago, is the suspect. Armond then continues to proceed onto Jackson Street, with Don stating that upon realising the guy was the suspect, said "We turned around to get to the presidio and our reasoning, well, my reasoning on that was because turning down Maple would lead directly through the Presidio wall and into Julius Kahn Playground which had a lot of foliage."

So, given that within only seconds of passing Zodiac as he shuffles up the steps onto the drive, you have Armond coming down Jackson, and Don and Eric turning around to go to W. Pacific Avenue, when does Zodiac have chance or time to escape? Here’s a view of the routes to give a visual perspective.

After their brief encounter on Cherry, Don Fouke turns around and is signified by the blue arrows, Armond’s route by the red. Yellow Star: Location of Zodiac just a minute or so before both Fouke & Pelissetti set off on the above route’s.

So, what’s the point of all this? Well, the point is, or question is rather, if Zodiac has a vehicle waiting, whether it be on Jackson Street or West Pacific, how does he manage to get away considering Don is driving down West Pacific literally within a minute or two of passing Z at the Maple intersection so would clearly see any vehicles as they attempt to pull away and, the same can be said for Zodiac having a car on Jackson because Armond is on this street and would again see any vehicle as it pulls away. Once Fouke gets to the Presidio the area is very quickly surrounded and cordoned off. Zodiac simply doesn’t have the time to leave 3712, get to the location of a vehicle, get in and pull away without Don or Armond being on that same road to see it.

I believe the Zodiac was never seen by police. Fact, as he already had spent extra time taking the victim’s keys, wallet, and piece of his shirt then wiping down the cab. He in my opinion would not spend any more time be on the street 2-3 minutes later holding all the evidence from the victim. I believe he entered the Presidio at the closest point one minute later. I believe he crossed the park ( not stopping to wait on police) I think he proceeded to his barracks 400 yards to the Northeast where he cleaned himself up and laid on his bunk smiling as he listened to the city’s wail of sirens and the sound of motorcycle officers swarming over at the park. He most certainly was glued to the TV the next day watching the news of his work while writing one of many " look at me" letter to the San Fran Chronicle..

If that was the case why would the many sniffer dogs employed in the search with approximately 250 million olfactory receptors, compared to 5 odd million in humans all fail to pick up a trail. The answer I suspect is the Zodiac never entered the park or any house on Jackson Street either. Had he entered a barracks 400 yards away he wouldn’t have been laughing for long.

When we consider the kids called the cops while Zodiac was still in the cab, chances are quite good Zodiac was in close proximity to the crime scene when LE arrived in the area.

Although, from what I have read about the dogs, they were never offered Zodiac’s scent. They were simply led into the Presidio to search for anyone in the vicinity–although it does seem they would be more attracted to a bloody scent. There has been some good discussion about that here.

I believe he entered the Presidio at the closest point one minute later.

I’m not sure that is possible. He walked away leisurely enough according to the witnesses (and there is even good reason to believe one witness observed him make his way north on Cherry almost all the way to Jackson). He was seemingly in no hurry – certainly didn’t run.

Plus, the obvious point to make: If he did indeed opt for the shortest route to the Presidio, it is evident that the man Fouke encountered was not Zodiac. Which poses all sorts of problems.

Norse, I think the latter is probable. A patrol car would usually have spotlights on it. The patrolman would have lit him up as trained. No mention of this anywhere. I spent many years on patrol. I cannot find a mention by a witness of a spotlight down the block.. This is a question for me personally.. If I would have stopped anyone or talked to anyone I would have blinded him for safety reasons as trained to do so..On the other hand the minute the Patrol unit’s light would have lit this Zodiac guy up..The race would have been on especially since the zodiac knew he was just 100-200 feet away from going through a base pedestrian gate not wide enough for a patrol car to follow. I was there in 2014. I walked the location..

Norse, I think the latter is probable. A patrol car would usually have spotlights on it. The patrolman would have lit him up as trained. No mention of this anywhere. I spent many years on patrol. I cannot find a mention by a witness of a spotlight down the block.. This is a question for me personally.. If I would have stopped anyone or talked to anyone I would have blinded him for safety reasons as trained to do so..On the other hand the minute the light would have lit this Zodiac guy up..The race would have been on especially since the zodiac knew he was just 100 feet away from going through a base pedestrian gate not wide enough for a patrol car to follow. I was there in 2014. I walked the location..

What Fouke has stated over the years doesn’t contradict that possibility, though: It’s possible that Fouke DID hit the man he encountered with his lights (he may not have stated that he did so explicitly, but his various statements are less than specific as such on several points – which is a general source of irritation!)

The question – in this particular context – remains who that man was:

1. Stine’s killer or 2. Someone else.

If I understand you rightly, it was someone else. Which is problematic.

What Fouke has stated over the years doesn’t contradict that possibility, though: It’s possible that Fouke DID hit the man he encountered with his lights (he may not have stated that he did so explicitly, but his various statements are less than specific as such on several points – which is a general source of irritation!)

The question – in this particular context – remains who that man was:

1. Stine’s killer or 2. Someone else.

If I understand you rightly, it was someone else. Which is problematic.

And if it wasn’t Zodiac, why would this man not later come forward? He is described similarly by the kids and then by Fouke in the same general area at the same time, not to mention Zodiac’s comments about TWO officers (whether or not they stopped him), Zodiac was right about that.

The man may have come forward. We may not have the follow up report from the inspectors. They may have known the guy and redacted it to spare him the Zodiac publicity.

The man may have come forward. We may not have the follow up report from the inspectors. They may have known the guy and redacted it to spare him the Zodiac publicity.

We don’t have the follow-up report(s), that is very true – and an important point to note (as I keep saying, it seems!)

However, we do know this:

After Z’s taunting letter, in which he describes his meeting with two police officers, Don Fouke writes up his famous memo or scratch. The SFPD basically comes out and admits to having cruised past the Zodiac killer minutes after the Stine murder. This is a major embarrassment both for Fouke and for the department.

Now, if the man Fouke encountered clearly was NOT the Zodiac killer – and the SFPD even knew who he was – why on earth would they keep this information to themselves given the circumstances? They could have easily spared themselves the embarrassment: Zodiac went straight into the park that night, he never strolled past Fouke and Zelms, there certainly was no conversation – and, basically, Z was just a big, fat liar.

Instead what we get is Fouke’s scratch. A clear indication that the SFPD believed Fouke’s guy was Z. The scratch and the subsequent comments in the papers constitute damage control. If Fouke’s guy is just a random passer-by, there is no damage to begin with.

for fouke’s recollection i have an inter-departmental memorandum dated november 12, 1969, which is a month after the stine killing. that’s the only official document of the time that i have (not counting interviews made decades later, etc). do we have any official documentation of fouke’s encounter prior to then? i remember reading that he didn’t mention running into anyone for a few days but i want to make sure he didn’t wait a month. i did a search but didn’t see anything. it’s not in the initial police report or the doj report. thanks in advance.

for fouke’s recollection i have an inter-departmental memorandum dated november 12, 1969, which is a month after the stine killing. that’s the only official document of the time that i have (not counting interviews made decades later, etc). do we have any official documentation of fouke’s encounter prior to then? i remember reading that he didn’t mention running into anyone for a few days but i want to make sure he didn’t wait a month. i did a search but didn’t see anything. it’s not in the initial police report or the doj report. thanks in advance.

There is nothing official, AFAIK.

Personally I find it near impossible to swallow that Fouke never talked to Armstrong or Toschi about the encounter – but there you go. Without the reports, we can only speculate. Fouke himself claims that he never met Toschi – as in, never. Again, I find that incredibly odd, not to say unbelievable.

for fouke’s recollection i have an inter-departmental memorandum dated november 12, 1969, which is a month after the stine killing. that’s the only official document of the time that i have (not counting interviews made decades later, etc). do we have any official documentation of fouke’s encounter prior to then? i remember reading that he didn’t mention running into anyone for a few days but i want to make sure he didn’t wait a month. i did a search but didn’t see anything. it’s not in the initial police report or the doj report. thanks in advance.

There is nothing official, AFAIK.

Personally I find it near impossible to swallow that Fouke never talked to Armstrong or Toschi about the encounter – but there you go. Without the reports, we can only speculate. Fouke himself claims that he never met Toschi – as in, never. Again, I find that incredibly odd, not to say unbelievable.

thanks. i guess i’ve never fully bought into the idea that fouke definitely saw the zodiac. coupled with the fact that it appears to have been an after-thought, days or weeks after, i just don’t buy what he’s selling. just my opinion.