Hi Susie–

I value your expertise. You are certainly more knowledgeable than I when it comes to this subject. I’m just speaking from a personal experience. As you know, some (in past experiments) were admitted with no problems at all and labeled schizophrenic. I’m just saying that while the institution may need to believe there is some sort of threat to admit someone, that "someone" may not actually be in need of being institutionalized. imo.

Things were very bad back in the day when it came to institutions. Please were treated worse than most people could imagine and the experiments they did were terrible. If Ross was Z I wouldn’t be surprised that anger linked to what may have happened in a hospital could have lead to some of it. Not justifying it, but the way people were treated was inexcusable. I do understand that they felt that literally locking someone to a chair was the best option for them, but I can only imagine the damage that it did to people. There’s a photography book that was put out by a psychologist that snuck a camera into an institution and published what he saw. He was willing to lose his license over it, but ended up winning awards. It’s called Christmas in Purgatory and it’s actually pretty difficult to find and very disturbing. But it helps to show what they did in mental facilities back in the day and it was published in 1966, photos were shot in 1965. This link will lead you to some of the pictures from the book, but I will warn you they can be difficult to look it.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=c … Q&tbm=isch

It’s also possible that Ross lost weight while hospitalized. If you look at the pictures there are many shockingly skinny people in them.

I just had a lengthy phone conversation with Allan Silliphant who was the schoolmate of Ross. Allan directed Ross in a movie, a school project called, Dejavu

I will update this thread today as time allows

Morf, this is great work.

A couple other things, Allan said Ross used to where a specific type of shirt, he called it something but I forget the name of it he said it wasn’t a windbreaker.

He also said Ross had very full or thick lips, the same lips that we see I’m the sketch.

Lastly, he told me something about Ross’s Father that I won’t post here, if you want to know what it is, just PM me

That is great Morf. I’m glad you found another person that was willing to help, even if it is to try and prove he’s not Z. I also think it’s important to note that the onset of mental illness (especially schizophrenia) tends to around 18 and into the early 20s for males (25 for females). It could be that Ross developed those tendancies after high school, so it would make sense that people that knew him earlier on would not see that side. The fact that he spent time in mental hospitals means that he was deemed to be a threat to himself or others and the fact that he was later conserved adds to that. It doesn’t make him a killer but does prove there was reasons for concern.

There are at least a couple profilers who felt Zodiac was a paranoid schizophrenic, just like Ross was

In all respect…

I have said it before, and I’ll say it again:

Zodiac was an organized killer, and a very smart one too,indeed showed to be crack proof even though he provided all the LE and experts (and the amature detectives) more material to work with than any other serial killer in history, I presume.

A person suffering from schizophrenia, or any other kind of psychotic diagnosis (especially back then when treatment of psychosis was not very good ), would NEVER EVER be able to pull off a crime history like Zodiac did, it just would not happen!

But a psychopathic personality, or a person with psychopathic traits, that is an entirely different matter, because THAT is IMHO what Zodiac most likely suffered from.

And note, that back then, in tv/video clips and newspaper interviews etc, people involved with the Zodiac investigation, including LE, of ignorance mixed up the two concepts psychopathy and psychosis.

And JFYI I am a registered nurse and have worked with psychiatric patients.

Morf could you please provide a link or copy of those "profilers who felt Zodiac was a paranoid schizophrenic" ?

Here you go Foreigner-

"Baker told Blumenfeld that the killer was most likely not a homosexual but that he was unquestionably paranoid and schizophrenic. The analyst then contradicted the opinion of many others who believed that the Zodiac’s childish scrawl and rampant misspellings were evidence that the writer was an uneducated man. Baker viewed the letters as proof that the killer was actually a shrewd and methodical planner attempting to mislead authorities"

Found here- http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/PsychPortraits.htm

A guy that claims he is a psychiatrist speaks his mind here – http://zodiackillersolved.blogspot.com/ … iller.html

Also, there are some profilers that think Zodiac suffered from ‘IMPULSE schizophrenia’ here’s one example-

https://books.google.com/books?id=SuEUR … ic&f=false

And here’s a Professional mentioned in Graysmith’s Book

Zodiac was an organized killer, and a very smart one too,indeed showed to be crack proof even though he provided all the LE and experts (and the amature detectives) more material to work with than any other serial killer in history, I presume.

quote]

I’m actually not convinced he was a smart or organized killer. His first cipher was cracked relatively quickly, so who’s to say that he was not upset about that and sent a cipher that can not be cracked. I have a feeling that there is a message in there; however I think it is very possible that Z wrote out the message and then assigned several random symbols to each letter. That way he could look like a genius and people would spend endless amounts of time working on it. If that is the case, yes, there is a real message, but it can not be cracked by anyone because Z randomly assigned the symbols. It could also be possible that he rearranged them like many people think, but again if I write down a message, assign different symbols, the cut them up and glue them together differently, does that make me a genius? We also do not know that any of the “clews” he left were real clues or just busy work for the authority that would lead them nowhere near him or his identity. Or that they are only clues he would understand, for example- maybe peeking through the pines had meaning to Z, but because of something he experienced earlier in life and meaningless to anyone but him. Until Z is ID we will never know if there is a real cipher or real clues and to be honest, even if he is theres a good chance he has passed away and we won’t know. I like Ross as a suspect and I hope that his classmate can provide more information on him. I’m not saying he is Zodiac, but I think looking into him further is a good idea. Maybe he was schizophrenic and has a nurse you are aware that he there are different degrees/stages of the disease. It possible that he had to stop the killing because the disease became too intense for him and he no longer could continue.

 

I don’t think leaving a bloody print on the cab shows an organized killer. I don’t think leaving multiple witnesses at his attacks shows he was organized. I don’t think nearly getting caught by police leaving the scene shows he was organized. I don’t think shooting Faraday & Jensen seconds after a potential witness, James Owen, went by shows he was organized, if anything, it shows an urge to kill he couldn’t control.

I don’t think leaving a bloody print on the cab shows an organized killer. I don’t think leaving multiple witnesses at his attacks shows he was organized. I don’t think nearly getting caught by police leaving the scene shows he was organized. I don’t think shooting Faraday & Jensen seconds after a potential witness, James Owen, went by shows he was organized, if anything, it shows an urge to kill he couldn’t control.

I agree and disagree.

I don’t think there is a snowball’s chance in hell Zodiac could have pulled off the things he did if he was an unorganized schizophrenic. There was WAY too much going on for him to get caught and I don’t think he was simply that lucky. Someone who behaves and thinks irrationally, imo, is going to get caught. There was no doubt luck played a role…for sure it did, but I think he knew what he was doing and had a pretty well thought out plan.

Even the best of killers (for lack of a better term) will leave SOMETHING behind. Mistakes are made. But, WHY didn’t he get caught later? I think that is quite telling.

Putting himself in the predicaments he did and exiting the scenes in the manners he did, imo, shows he was in control of the situation and/or himself. He had a plan, he followed that plan, and stayed calm and cool in the process.

To me, anyone who goes out and kills people for attention (and whatever else) is no doubt one hell of a disturbed individual, but even terrorists/suicide bombers don’t necessarily suffer from some sort of personality disorder or are considered "abnormal" in the psychological sense.

I often think Zodiac was the exact OPPOSITE of what investigators perceived him to be. "It couldn’t be him" therefore, it wasn’t.

I don’t think the mental health aspect – so to speak – rules Ross either in or out, as long as we don’t know precisely what state he was in and how, let’s say, incapacitated he would have been as a result of it.

It’s also dangerous, I think, to read too much into terms and diagnoses from the 60s – there’s been a world of change since then in terms of how mental illness is diagnosed and treated, and understood in general.

I agree, however, that Z – whoever he was – can’t have been suffering from any form of mental illness which would have made him, effectively, NOT able to control himself fully. There’s a bit of both with Z – he seems both organized and disorganized in a general sort of way. To me the latter aspect can be explained as, well, risk taking. He operated within tight time frames, took huge chances, was clearly willing to risk getting caught (all his attacks are done very much in the open, often in close proximity to roads where anyone might pass by at any time, or with Stine in the middle of a residential area) – but at the same time he undoubtedly did some planning before striking.

The letters are also – to me, at least – an indication of his mental state. He never fails to make himself understood perfectly. He’s coherent, cold, detached, sarcastic – which given the subject matter is certainly "crazy" enough but it’s never anything near the ravings of someone who suffers from certain conditions. He may have been in an altered state of mind – of some kind – but I think it’s quite impossible that he was, for instance, psychotic.

Anyway, so much for Z. As for Ross, I don’t think we know enough about his problems in detail for us to be able to reach any conclusion based on medical reasons. More info is needed, I guess.

I think that schizophrenics can have wild swings of lucidity & clear thinking. Part of it likely depends on meds, etc, also, if they take other illegal drugs,etc, their thinking can be changed. I don’t have the desire or time to take a class on mental illness, I’m merely interested in the fact Ross had paranoid schizophrenia, and that’s mentioned by Zodiac profilers. More than Ross’s mental illness, I am more excited by the fact he looks exactly like the Z sketch, is the only Z suspect ever confirmed to be in the RCC Library, and had creeped out the library staff with a morbid poem, and low and behold, it was a morbid poem found in the RCC library that links to Zodiac.

Tahoe and Norse I agree with you both 100%

Morf thanks for the links to the profiles
I have read them now and I still 100% disagree concerning Zodiac suffering from schizophrenia, or any other psychotic illness.

And I suggest we just agree to disagree on the matter

I think Ross is an interesting poi, however I don’t put much stock in the police sketch derived from a coupe of teenagers view from an upstairs window. At night no less.
Ross was without question in Riverside, and from most accounts portrayed himself as a pretty creepy guy. I think he’s a prime suspect in the CJB killing. (He reportedly liked talking to girls. Could have easily gotten the brush off a few times. Liked and wrote poetry. Worked in the library. Could have easily written the desktop poem – although I firmly reject the murder context and read it as a suicide fantasy. Known to ride a motorcycle. Some earwitnesses heard a loud motorcycle start and leave after screams were heard.
Ross is a good candidate. Links all over Riverside.
But, to tie him into Lake Herman, BRS and a taxi cab murder in SF is a stretch at this point.
(personally I don’t think the person that killed CJB was the Zodiac)

But, to tie him into Lake Herman, BRS and a taxi cab murder in SF is a stretch at this point.
(personally I don’t think the person that killed CJB was the Zodiac)

LE in the bay area tried forever to link Zodiac to one of his bay area victims. They hammered away at this and it led nowhere, because the bay area crimes were random and had no connection.

There is a pile of evidence linking Z to Riverside. The Riverside police were sure Cheri knew her killer, but they focused on the wrong suspect. Once the connection was made and the desktop was found, Ross was probably shocked the police never came knocking.

BTW, this same thing happened with the BTK case.

After many years of hunting the BTK strangler, Wichita detectives turned to the experts and profilers for help. Some investigators believed that BTK was responsible for the murder of a young woman while others were absolutely convinced that the elusive killer was not involved in that crime. The experts examined the cases and conclued that BTK was definitely not responsible for the woman’s murder. Then, in 2004, BTK resurfaced and sent his first communication in 25 years. The killer’s package contained photographs he had taken during the murder of the woman in question, thereby refuting the conclusions of the experts.

I think Ross is an interesting poi, however I don’t put much stock in the police sketch derived from a coupe of teenagers view from an upstairs window. At night no less.

How about what Fouke had to say?? He saw him up close & personal, and was very specific about the widow’s peak hairline(although, height & age do not match Ross necessarily )