Cutting your hair,shaving, etc, a sign of keeping yourself groomed for sure, but bathing is another story. I have short hair, and regularly shave, but if I spent a day outside doing yard work,etc and didn’t shower,I could be pretty ripe(lucky for my Wife I shower every day ) I don’t think shaving/haircuts always go hand in hand with bathing(although they probably should )

Cutting your hair,shaving, etc, a sign of keeping yourself groomed for sure, but bathing is another story. I have short hair, and regularly shave, but if I spent a day outside doing yard work,etc and didn’t shower,I could be pretty ripe(lucky for my Wife I shower every day ) I don’t think shaving/haircuts always go hand in hand with bathing(although they probably should )

True, but crew cuts also didn’t go hand in hand with the hippie culture. It’s a lot easier, and cheaper, to just let hair grow on your head and face. Especially if you’re basically homeless, poor, and suffering from severe mental illness that is distorting your sense of reality. I find it interesting that, for whatever reason, Ross didn’t go that route.

Again, I’m not drawing a conclusion, just pondering the observation.

On a general note, I’d say that if he appeared well groomed around 1970 he wouldn’t have been homeless or a drifter. More likely that he was living in an institution, but that he was allowed out (so to speak) from time to time.

On a general note, I’d say that if he appeared well groomed around 1970 he wouldn’t have been homeless or a drifter. More likely that he was living in an institution, but that he was allowed out (so to speak) from time to time.

Yes, that’s sort of where I was drifting… that maybe someone else was seeing to it that he was getting regular haircuts. I’m not seeing Ross making it a priority for himself.

On a general note, I’d say that if he appeared well groomed around 1970 he wouldn’t have been homeless or a drifter. More likely that he was living in an institution, but that he was allowed out (so to speak) from time to time.

Yes, that’s sort of where I was drifting… that maybe someone else was seeing to it that he was getting regular haircuts. I’m not seeing Ross making it a priority for himself.

He may have just been the type that did not like long hair,or that kind of look

He was mentally ill too, though, to the point where he was deemed unfit to handle his own affairs. All in all I think it’s unlikely that a person like him would be able to maintain any sort of groomed appearance if he was on his own, regardless of what look he preferred.

All speculation, of course. But I’d theorize that if he appeared fairly groomed around 1970 he was a) not that ill at the time, i.e. he had a job and a place to live or b) institutionalized.

Given what we know of his history both prior to and after 1970, I’d further suggest that b) is the more likely alternative.

He was mentally ill too, though, to the point where he was deemed unfit to handle his own affairs. All in all I think it’s unlikely that a person like him would be able to maintain any sort of groomed appearance if he was on his own, regardless of what look he preferred.

All speculation, of course. But I’d theorize that if he appeared fairly groomed around 1970 he was a) not that ill at the time, i.e. he had a job and a place to live or b) institutionalized.

Given what we know of his history both prior to and after 1970, I’d further suggest that b) is the more likely alternative.

Also, the fact he walked into an apartment that was no longer his. Which might either mean he left his current place to go to his former place, or he was released and had no current place to go, so he went to the only apartment he was familiar with.

Or… maybe he was just out of butter…

Since this was in 1970, after the final Z murder, all that would be required, health-wise, would be for him to become periodically lucid enough to write letters. And other than the map, the complicated ones (ciphers) had already been sent. The complexity of the Z letters seems to have been going downhill starting around this time, much as Ross’ mental abilities.

On a general note, I’d say that if he appeared well groomed around 1970 he wouldn’t have been homeless or a drifter. More likely that he was living in an institution, but that he was allowed out (so to speak) from time to time.

I would not make that assumption about him being in an institution. Being conserved and living in an institution do not go hand in hand. If he was in an institution he most likely would not have been "allowed out from time to time". At least not without supervision from someone. It’s more likely that he was living in more of a support living setting than a locked down type.

To me it seems like people are not having a difficult time understanding what it means to be institutionalized or how easy it can be to have someone conserved. I have worked with plenty of people that have been conserved that I strongly disagree with and it was even easier back in the day. If someone has a mental health or developmental disability a family member can easily argue for conservatorship. Also, if someone is conserved it does not mean that they can not take care of a lot of their own needs. If you want to look at modern day Brittany Spears is still conserved in regards to certain aspects of her life and still lives independently with a very successful career. We really need to learn more about why he was conserved and what areas they actually focused on.

In regards to being institutionalized; that implies they are residing in the institution. The supported living home he was living in when he passed away is NOT an institution and/or locked facility. You are able to come and go as you please. There usually are some rules, such as being there for your therapy sessions or during the time medication is given out, but you are not locked in. We have no idea when Ross was living in an institution, when he was living in a support living setting, when he had an apartment, etc, so we really can not try to figure out a timeline or whether or not he “escaped” at some point.

There is also no reason to believe that Ross was not capable of going to get a hair cut. Especially a crew cut, because that is the easiest to take care of. Just because he did not like to shower, does not mean he could not make and keep a hair appointment. For all we know he had a friend that cut it for him or a family member that followed up with him. Just because someone has a mental health disorder does not mean they can not make sure simple tasks are taken care of. Per the Joann Bailey he did not like to shower or change his clothing very much, so having a short hair makes it that much easier to not need to shower.

I think we are making to many assumptions about where Ross lived and how much of his daily living tasks he was able to complete on his own. My guess is he was able to do a lot more than people are assuming.

Sure, but whether he was in an according-to-Hoyle institution or something less heavy isn’t the point. Was he homeless? Was he a drifter? Or was he under some form of supervision, with people around him who made sure he looked presentable? I’d say the latter is more likely than the former. And that’s all I’m saying.

And – which is crucial here – if he was under supervision, in care, call it what you will, there will be records of this somewhere.

In short, it’s not a question of underestimating his ability to do this or that – but a question of establishing what his life situation was. If he was in the system – it’s possible, at least in theory, to establish precisely where he resided and so forth.

If he was not in the system, this becomes much harder, not to say potentially impossible. And if he was a drifter, I doubt very much that he looked even remotely tidy (clean shaven with a crew cut – I’ve never seen a homeless person sport that look).

The complexity of the Z letters seems to have been going downhill starting around this time, much as Ross’ mental abilities.

If you consider complexity to mean including ciphers, which you are, then yes, they were less complex in that sense but I’m not sure it’s a reliable indicator of Zodiac’s mental state or ability or deterioration thereof. My problem is the letters themselves. Yes they stopped containing ciphers but they did begin containing a level of complexity regarding handwriting styles and I have to consider that if one is capable of that then I can’t see any hindrance mentally to being able to produce ciphers.

I personally think they were just too much work and he’d taken it as far he could in regards pay-off. ie. the 340 the 32 and the 13 were all still unsolved. If they aren’t real or don’t contain anything then it could be suggested that in itself was an indicator that he had lost interest in that aspect. If they are real then it could equally be suggested that the reason for ceasing to produce them was due to him deciding there was no point until the previous ones had all been solved.

Just my thoughts on it but simply put, I think there are too many competing (apparent) factors to safely correlate mental deterioration with no longer producing ciphers.

The complexity of the Z letters seems to have been going downhill starting around this time, much as Ross’ mental abilities.

If you consider complexity to mean including ciphers, which you are, then yes, they were less complex in that sense but I’m not sure it’s a reliable indicator of Zodiac’s mental state or ability or deterioration thereof. My problem is the letters themselves. Yes they stopped containing ciphers but they did begin containing a level of complexity regarding handwriting styles and I have to consider that if one is capable of that then I can’t see any hindrance mentally to being able to produce ciphers.

I personally think they were just too much work and he’d taken it as far he could in regards pay-off. ie. the 340 the 32 and the 13 were all still unsolved. If they aren’t real or don’t contain anything then it could be suggested that in itself was an indicator that he had lost interest in that aspect. If they are real then it could equally be suggested that the reason for ceasing to produce them was due to him deciding there was no point until the previous ones had all been solved.

Just my thoughts on it but simply put, I think there are too many competing (apparent) factors to safely correlate mental deterioration with no longer producing ciphers.

But we know from the librarians that Ross had taken classes on handwriting styles. So he was trained in that specifically so to speak wasn’t he? A mental illness would not have made him forget that. I think what she meant was that the letters which were written in 1970, really over a four month period in 1970, didn’t show any level of sophistication. They were mostly ramblings about buttons and using song lyrics to convey a message about who he was looking to kill, etc. One was just a card with only a few words added. So the point was it didn’t require much time and effort and he could have easily written them when he was out of the hospital or when he was lucid. We know from our source that he was out of the hospital at times and he was known to wander around the beach area in Santa Cruz in 1970. His conservatorship wasn’t even put into effect until December 18, 1970. Only one letter was written after that at all.

BTW, did you ever contact the source again morf? Trying to lock down some of those dates could be really helpful.

But we know from the librarians that Ross had taken classes on handwriting styles. So he was trained in that specifically so to speak wasn’t he? A mental illness would not have made him forget that.

Or how to create ciphers either ergo mental illness not a safe indicator or correlation to the ciphers stopping.

But we know from the librarians that Ross had taken classes on handwriting styles. So he was trained in that specifically so to speak wasn’t he? A mental illness would not have made him forget that.

Writing in a different style isn’t the most difficult thing in the world but it is more involved than simply changing a letter here and there. There are rules and these would have to be adhered to, maintained and adapted for each instance. As far as I can tell Zodiac managed that…

Ross’ condition could also help explain that though:

http://www.signsofschizophrenia.net/schizophrenia-and-handwriting.html

Here are a few of the characteristics of schizophrenia and handwriting:

Capital Letters: Often capital letters get reversed and other pen strokes are reversed or disconnected entirely. Sometimes a person suffering from schizophrenia will capitalize letters in the middle of a word (unfortunately this does not mean that people who type this way on the internet are necessarily schizophrenics; they are probably just teenagers).

Style: Sometimes a person with schizophrenia will use several styles of handwriting on the same page of writing…