Lol I did not demand that He provide documentation. That’s silly. I said if he could track down documentation of Ross’s whereabouts (in general) during the time of the Zodiac murders I would give him a feather for his sleuth hat. I didn’t say if he could prove Ross was NOT in the areas in all actuality – just rhetorical point that again no one can prove either way if he was or was not near the crime scenes – yet – unless someone finds info and that would be great!!!

Fair enough, I misread it slightly.

Anyway, I don’t think Doc positively rules out Ross based on the fact that we don’t know where he was – I read it more as him simply emphasizing that the lack of positive/tangible evidence is a major problem. Which it is, of course.

I agree with that for sure. We do need tangible evidence. Documentation. Not heresay from Ross’s sibling. But I wouldn’t be so quick to write off Ross because we don’t have the information we seek (as I felt Doc was kind of doing). We still have much to learn about him. IMO Nothing tangible has been presented to rule him out yet. IMO there has been more tangible documentation to rule him in than rule him out, but this is true with many POIs so I take it with a grain of salt. I thought the same things about ALA and Kane at points, too. One learns to not put too much weight into a POI after time, but when a decent POI comes along I would hope he is investigated fully until he can be ruled out definitively. Until this is done with Ross I will be interested in his handwriting, movements, interests etc just like I was the POIs before him ( I was not on this site posting when I was researching/reading about the other POIs so it may appear as if I only suspect Ross here – which is not the case).

Any ideas of where a librarian might hand write things down in the 1960’s?

Please provide documentation of him being anywhere (addresses/institutions/etc) during the time of the Zodiac murders and I will give you a feather for your sleuth hat.

But on general principle it surely must be the other way around – no? I can’t document that my grandfather was not in the Vallejo area on July 4th 1969. But nobody in his right mind would consider this an indication that he was in the area.

The onus must be on the investigators/researchers/theorists to document that there is a valid connection – a valid proximity, if you will – to the relevant areas/crime scenes.

I guess you are both right. People say Ross is not a valid suspect because you can not place him in Vallejo,Napa, SF,etc. But that doesn’t mean he wasn’t there. On the other hand, to prove he could be Z, he must be linked to that area. That’s where we are stuck with him.Z

Well, we have some idea where he was based on what the living brother told the reporter for the ratter article. He indicated that Ross was committed to Agnews Insane Asylum in Santa Clara. This was the only useful bit of information he provided. Given this knowledge, it would not surprise me if Ross spent some time in Napa State Hospital as well. We have no dates or times though. We’re stuck until we can find someone who knows more about what happened to Ross.

So I ask, are you still positive that Ross was NOT around the San Fran or Bay Area during the Zodiac murders? Please provide documentation of him being anywhere (addresses/institutions/etc) during the time of the Zodiac murders and I will give you a feather for your sleuth hat.

Well, aside from the fact that I cannot prove a negative, then I don’t have that information. However, I do have an issue here.

We do know for a confirmed fact that Ross spent time in a mental institution, more than likely on an involuntary hold (I don’t have evidence of that but it is speculation, given his attack on the man in the phone booth [assuming that individual was Ross, which I’ll concede was him]). We also are having a seemingly impossible time trying to find anywhere Ross was at afterwards, except for at the time of his death. From my research, he died in an Assisted Care facility in Santa Cruz, and he stayed in that facility for 3 years prior. His cause of death, we know, is due to obesity and Pickwickians syndrome, which is basically just an inability to get oxygen due to obesity related issues. We can easily conclude that he was in this assisted care facility due to his health issues. Therefore, in 1974-1977 Ross is easy to place. We know Ross left Riverside in November of 67 and went to Santa Cruz, where we believe he was arrested and held in a mental hospital for at least 72 hours in Feb 1968. Given the nature of the attack, however, it wouldn’t surprise me if Ross was held involuntarily for even longer in this hospital. I won’t guess how long, as it would be just speculation that I cannot prove. However, one thing’s for sure: We have only 10 months of a time frame to place Ross anywhere near LHR, from his residence at Santa Cruz, where he may or may not be in a mental hospital already.

Another problem is, no one can find Ross in a UC Santa Cruz yearbook. This is the only reason why I am convinced it was Ross who was arrested in Feb 1968, despite no name being attached to the arrest article. I speculate that Ross cannot be found in the UCSC yearbook because he only attended USCS for the months of Nov-Feb, where then he is placed involuntarily in a mental hospital for a long future. The RCC librarian letter also states she believed Ross was being held in a mental facility at the time she wrote the letter. I can only imagine that Ross was in a mental facility for a majority of his life from 1968-1974.

We also need to establish a link between Ross and firearms. It’s especially interesting to figure out how Ross acquired so many different firearms to commit murders when he was a mental patient.

So I ask, are you still positive that Ross was NOT around the San Fran or Bay Area during the Zodiac murders? Please provide documentation of him being anywhere (addresses/institutions/etc) during the time of the Zodiac murders and I will give you a feather for your sleuth hat.

Well, aside from the fact that I cannot prove a negative, then I don’t have that information. However, I do have an issue here.

We do know for a confirmed fact that Ross spent time in a mental institution, more than likely on an involuntary hold (I don’t have evidence of that but it is speculation, given his attack on the man in the phone booth [assuming that individual was Ross, which I’ll concede was him]). We also are having a seemingly impossible time trying to find anywhere Ross was at afterwards, except for at the time of his death. From my research, he died in an Assisted Care facility in Santa Cruz, and he stayed in that facility for 3 years prior. His cause of death, we know, is due to obesity and Pickwickians syndrome, which is basically just an inability to get oxygen due to obesity related issues. We can easily conclude that he was in this assisted care facility due to his health issues. Therefore, in 1974-1977 Ross is easy to place. We know Ross left Riverside in November of 67 and went to Santa Cruz, where we believe he was arrested and held in a mental hospital for at least 72 hours in Feb 1968. Given the nature of the attack, however, it wouldn’t surprise me if Ross was held involuntarily for even longer in this hospital. I won’t guess how long, as it would be just speculation that I cannot prove. However, one thing’s for sure: We have only 10 months of a time frame to place Ross anywhere near LHR, from his residence at Santa Cruz, where he may or may not be in a mental hospital already.

Another problem is, no one can find Ross in a UC Santa Cruz yearbook. This is the only reason why I am convinced it was Ross who was arrested in Feb 1968, despite no name being attached to the arrest article. I speculate that Ross cannot be found in the UCSC yearbook because he only attended USCS for the months of Nov-Feb, where then he is placed involuntarily in a mental hospital for a long future. The RCC librarian letter also states she believed Ross was being held in a mental facility at the time she wrote the letter. I can only imagine that Ross was in a mental facility for a majority of his life from 1968-1974.

We also need to establish a link between Ross and firearms. It’s especially interesting to figure out how Ross acquired so many different firearms to commit murders when he was a mental patient.

*Ross was under care from 1974 to 1977. When was the last Z letter? 1974.

*Not finding Ross in the Santa Cruz yearbook is not a big deal, we know he was at RCC for years, and he is not in any of those yearbooks

*Ross,is without a doubt, the guy arrested for the phonebooth incident.

*There’s no way to know for sure how long and when Ross was in the mental institutions

*If his Brother Tim suspected he was Z, he likely would have reasons, and likely would not think that Ross was Z if he knew Ross was hospitalized during Z murders.

The problem is – again – that there aren’t any details: We have no idea why the brother suspected him. Was it an offhand remark? A hunch? For all we know he may have thought Ross’ personality in some ways made him a likely candidate – but without being familiar with either the precise nature of Ross’ institutional life or the details of the Z case (dates, not least). He had been living in Canada for years unless I’m mistaken.

Then we have the other brother’s remark – about Tim not being well either. What does that mean exactly? Presumably there’s a reason for this remark – just as there’s a reason why Tim suspected Ross. Or allegedly suspected Ross – according to one man, who didn’t elaborate.

Not questioning the honesty, memory or integrity of anyone involved with this – but it’s all incredibly vague.

*Ross was under care from 1974 to 1977. When was the last Z letter? 1974.

But again, according to Morrill there was a 1978 letter that he confirmed. If one uses him time and time again as being the best there is, how do you refute that?

We already have a 150 page Ross thread, a 20 page or so pros and Cons thread, and many others devoted to specifics about Ross…do we really need to spend most of this thread debating about whether he’s a good suspect or not?

I’d like to see this thread stick to the handwriting, or aspects relevant to that.

We already have a 150 page Ross thread, a 20 page or so pros and Cons thread, and many others devoted to specifics about Ross…do we really need to spend most of this thread debating about whether he’s a good suspect or not?

I’d like to see this thread stick to the handwriting, or aspects relevant to that.

You’re absolutely right – of course.

*Ross was under care from 1974 to 1977. When was the last Z letter? 1974.

But again, according to Morrill there was a 1978 letter that he confirmed. If one uses him time and time again as being the best there is, how do you refute that?

You dont…if u believe the eureka card was legit it would have to be z was a livin graying 50 plus year dude by then…to me..the whole cesspool of evidence point to multiple z theory in some regards

Or just that the hoax writer of the ’78 letter and card copied, traced real Zodiac handwriting, which was pretty much the conclusions of those that deemed them as non matching.

As far as I know no one has ever disputed the matches for the other letters. I don’t think you can base that on a reason to dismiss Morrill’s other matches.

I know this may be a long shot, but is there any way to track down that supposed paper Ross wrote at RCC about graphology/handwriting? I doubt it, but maybe the professor saved his paper?

His transcripts would need to be found (Jo Ann mentions his transcripts in her letter), then focus in on the English courses he took (he wrote the paper for an English class), and hopefully there is record of who taught the class there. Whoever it is it seemed she/he may have conversed often with Jo Ann about Ross. I don’t know how or where I could find his transcripts at RCC or if those are already long gone by now.

But gosh what I wouldn’t do for that term paper and to also speak to Ross’s professors/advisors/counsellors – whoever is still alive that is! They can’t all be gone, can they?

By looks of things, there’s pretty much zero chance of me getting his transcripts (maybe someone else here is with LE and can do that sort of thing?). It seems hard to come by any transcripts before 1974 and even if they had them, I would have to show up in person with a copy of Ross’s ID and a letter from Ross saying "Hey it’s Ross. Let Pinkphantom look at my crap. Peace out."

If he took written exams at RCC, I guess there’s a chance there would be copies (multiple-layer answer papers were in use at the time – I think). But whether these are still kept – nevermind accessible – is doubtful.

Good idea Norse! I too fear they might not be accessible. We need more sources of handwriting for Ross IMHO.

Or just that the hoax writer of the ’78 letter and card copied, traced real Zodiac handwriting, which was pretty much the conclusions of those that deemed them as non matching.

As far as I know no one has ever disputed the matches for the other letters. I don’t think you can base that on a reason to dismiss Morrill’s other matches.

An expert would know the difference.