Unfortunately, Morf – one of the most respected voices in true crime and the Zodiac case specifically – chooses to stir up the already muddied waters of this case by presenting supposition and conjecture and speculation as facts that should be taken for granted.

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Do you even understand this case?

It’s not opinion, and not spreading false information. The possible link has been established by LE for over 40 years. Most experts at the very lest acknowledge the link is a very real possibility. And at the lowest level, there are many visual comparisons that clearly show strong similarities. The link to the Riverside writing is part of the Z case, RS or not.

As for Ross, no more of that writing ever turned up in Riverside after Ross left town in 1967.

Yes, I understand this case.

However, I’m not sure you understand the difference between "possible" and "factual". Sure, there is some evidence suggesting a link, but nothing that has been definitive, and yet, Morf and others just go ahead and talk as if CBJ was 100% a Zodiac crime – as if law enforcement had declared it so. They have not.

It remains just that. "Possible".

So, yes, I think it’s problematic when respected members of this community make statements that aren’t factual, but present them as so. It confuses new people to the case and, I believe, hurtful to finding the guy.

Morf and others just go ahead and talk as if CBJ was 100% a Zodiac crime – as if law enforcement had declared it so. They have not.

Show us one single example of Morf claiming CJB was 100% Zodiac…….

Waiting…. You can’t do it can you.

Now your claim is bogus, and now you are "presenting supposition and conjecture and speculation as facts."

Now that’s disrespectful.

But Ross is the only one in that photo(and only Zodiac suspect) confirmed to be in the RCC library where Zodiac’s writing was found

This is what I was referring to. Morf states that Zodiac’s writing was found in the RCC library. That’s not been confirmed, and I believe it’s irresponsible to state so.

Also, I suggest you switch to decaf.

Zodiac WRITING. Not CJB, try again.

If you have an issue with speculation, you might want to stay off these boards, that’s what goes on here.

If you worry that noobs might hear about CJB, it’s too late. It’s on the Z Wiki page, a major film from 2007 mentioned it…. and so on.

I would worry more that if you type Zodiac into google, you get bad info about Gary Stewart’s dad and Ted Cruz.
The general media is pushing way worse information.

But Ross is the only one in that photo(and only Zodiac suspect) confirmed to be in the RCC library where Zodiac’s writing was found

This is what I was referring to. Morf states that Zodiac’s writing was found in the RCC library. That’s not been confirmed, and I believe it’s irresponsible to state so.

Also, I suggest you switch to decaf.

Actually that HAS been confirmed by the state’s top writing expert and the FBI

There are always professionals to argue every side, as was the case with the writing on the desk.

It’s not a fact and that is fact.

You’re right, it’s not a fact. Just because you believe something to be true doesn’t make it true and vice versa. When law enforcement officially connects CJB with Zodiac or officially links the desktop poem to him, then that’s different. Unfortunately, Morf – one of the most respected voices in true crime and the Zodiac case specifically – chooses to stir up the already muddied waters of this case by presenting supposition and conjecture and speculation as facts that should be taken for granted. In my opinion, that’s detrimental to solving this case and confuses those new to it.

I meant no disrespect, but let’s be as grounded to the standards of factual investigation as much as possible.

Chaucer, Stop making false statements. Forget what I say, The recognized experts have come to these conclusions as indicated in the DOJ & FBI reports. Seems like you are simply trolling- don’t do that

To my knowledge, law enforcement has not conclusively linked Zodiac and Cheri Jo Bates. While there is compelling evidence that the Zodiac and CJB are connected, it is still not considered a canonical crime. While some document examiners have suggested the writers of the CJB letters and desktop poems could be Zodiac, others disagree.

My point is that there is no definitive proof that Zodiac was ever inside the RCC library and no definitive proof that he killed CJB. Evidence? Sure! Proof? No.

When LE announces conclusive, definitive proof otherwise, please let me know. Until then, I think it is always best to take a skeptical approach.

To my knowledge, law enforcement has not conclusively linked Zodiac and Cheri Jo Bates. While there is compelling evidence that the Zodiac and CJB are connected, it is still not considered a canonical crime. While some document examiners have suggested the writers of the CJB letters and desktop poems could be Zodiac, others disagree.

My point is that there is no definitive proof that Zodiac was ever inside the RCC library and no definitive proof that he killed CJB. Evidence? Sure! Proof? No.

When LE announces conclusive, definitive proof otherwise, please let me know. Until then, I think it is always best to take a skeptical approach.

Noted, but again based on the experts Sherwood Morrill, FBI,etc, (and the similar pattern, misspelled words, choice of words etc, it’s obvious) They are/were case experts and were of the opinion that Zodiac was in that library and wrote the letters in the Bates case. To that point, writing is open to interpretation, which is why physical evidence, DNA etc is so much better. But is it likely that someone who has the same word choices, phrases, misspellings, patterns and habits just so happens to have writing that is so close to Zodiac that it fools the top Zodiac writing expert & FBI? I don’t think so, most times if it looks, sounds , and smells like a duck, it’s a duck

If CJB is a Z crime, RS is your guy.
So much evidence pointing towards, none excluding.
Also, I believe he cleverly embedded clues to his first and last names in the Halloween card with the eyes and the brand symbol from the Red Ryder paint book.

To my knowledge, law enforcement has not conclusively linked Zodiac and Cheri Jo Bates. While there is compelling evidence that the Zodiac and CJB are connected, it is still not considered a canonical crime. While some document examiners have suggested the writers of the CJB letters and desktop poems could be Zodiac, others disagree.

My point is that there is no definitive proof that Zodiac was ever inside the RCC library and no definitive proof that he killed CJB. Evidence? Sure! Proof? No.

When LE announces conclusive, definitive proof otherwise, please let me know. Until then, I think it is always best to take a skeptical approach.

Noted, but again based on the experts Sherwood Morrill, FBI,etc, (and the similar pattern, misspelled words, choice of words etc, it’s obvious) They are/were case experts and were of the opinion that Zodiac was in that library and wrote the letters in the Bates case. To that point, writing is open to interpretation, which is why physical evidence, DNA etc is so much better. But is it likely that someone who has the same word choices, phrases, misspellings, patterns and habits just so happens to have writing that is so close to Zodiac that it fools the top Zodiac writing expert & FBI? I don’t think so, most times if it looks, sounds , and smells like a duck, it’s a duck

(Information above is Copyright Michael Butterfield & http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com ).

This information and graphic by Michael Butterfield gives a good, very concise summary of some of the key points of similarity between the Riverside Bates murder and the SF area Zodiac murders. I added on the small additional points of matching evidence in the upper left.

Traveller1st did a comparison of the Riverside poem to Zodiac writing and Bates confession letter writing.

Sherwood Morrill of Cal DOJ found that the Riverside writings were done by the Zodiac. Postal Inspector Mr. Shimoda of US Postal Service did not agree. The FBI was asked in effect to break the tie, and they agreed with Mr. Morrill that the Riverside writings, poem and letters, were likely done by the author of the Zodiac letters. We have that document here somewhere.

Morf gives some additional points of similarity below, including that both the Riverside writer and Zodiac misspell the word "TWITCH" as "TWICH".

Thanks for posting that AK.

It seems that every RS thread devolves into a debate over Riverside and CJB being a true Z crime. Over and over we hear the same "I don’t think CJB was Z."
Like saying that counts for anything. Opinions are meaningless unless they are supported by evidence. And with the Riverside writing we have just that, evidence.

As pointed out over and over, the Z link is to the writing. The evidence in the CJB murder is all over the place.
It would make sense to believe the writer also did that crime, but he in no way had to.

Back to Ross, I hear one more thing lately that is very bizarre. It’s when members post that they believe Ross was ONLY the killer of CJB, and not the Z crimes.
WTF is that? How can you say that you believe someone is capable of murder one year in one location. But then when that same person travels north in the same time-frame and place the Z crimes happen, he can’t be the perp.

Anyone explain that one to me.

Maybe because they feel that going by most eyewitness accounts, the shooter at BRS and PH wasn’t 6’2” and 260-300lbs?

Maybe because they feel that going by most eyewitness accounts, the shooter at BRS and PH wasn’t 6’2” and 260-300lbs?

This is the second flaw that is always used to eliminate RS.

Here is a simple fact: NO ONE KNOWS THE ACTUAL HEIGHT AND WEIGHT OF Z.

It falls into a range. Members are so hubris, that they eliminate a suspect based on height and weight, even when it FALLS WITHIN THE RANGE OF Z DESCRIPTIONS.
It would be as foolish as someone eliminating suspects who were 5’9" because he feels Z was taller.

LB had the best evidence to height and weight, and that EVIDENCE (a stand-in for height, and soil compaction) points to around 6′ and very heavy.

Also no one knows RS actual height and weight, we only have mentions of it being (6’2” and 260-300lbs).
But I’m sure in a few weeks or months, some new troll will make the same played out argument that have been debunked over and over……

You’re a pretty angry and defensive person aren’t you! Your question was why were people possibly saying Ross might be guilty of the Bates murder but not favouring him as Z. My answer was that they possibly didn’t feel that Z was that huge.

Eye witnesses of Z have him at 5’8” to 5’10” and maybe 5’11” or 6ft max (Cecelia’s estimate after seeing him with a tall bag on his head). Also he was estimated at 160 – 200lbs weight. The nearest we get to Ross is the girls at LB who saw someone watching them. They said he was hunky, dark haired and pretty sexy (and didn’t wear glasses). Can see why people might not have Ross at the top of their list on any of those descriptions!

To summarise, no obviously we don’t know Z’s exact height and weight but if someone jumped up and down screaming that he’s a 5’4” Mexican, I could see some people discounting that too.