Here’s why I don’t buy Ross:

1) Lots of guys looked like that in the 1960s. There’s nothing unique about the older photo of Sullivan or the sketch of Zodiac. It’s a white guy with a crew cut or closely cropped hair and GI glasses.

2) Until there’s evidence linking Ross Sullivan to the death of Cheri Jo Bates, and then evidence that Cheri Jo Bates was an actual Zodiac victim, I think working backwards from scant circumstantial evidence in the Bay — while also disregarding the serious mental disabilities Ross had — is a mistake.

You are entitled to your thoughts yay or nay if ross is the z…what makes ross so dam interesting is he has been placed in the library at rcc..no others can claim that as of yet….yea that bastard could be involved with cjb….

If you dump berryessa as being a z crime ross also comes into play in the san fran area….while i do tend to agree ross fits berryessa there is some including myself that thinks the possibility exists that berryessa was not z but a copycat…of course ross is in no way a fit for k johns…i dunno and i am not goin speak for morf..nay be you just got him on a bad day…i dont think your post was that negative in nature

It wasn’t a bad day, I went round & round with multiple people on Facebook that had the same attacking points about Ross. I end that argument because I just don’t have the energy, and low & behold, hours later a poster here picks up the conversation exactly where it left off on Facebook…I find the timing pretty suspicious, but anyhow.

I have said all along, if Ross was never in Vallejo- he can’t be Zodiac. Period. So, I am not married to Ross. If he can be ruled out, let’s rule him out, but I am not going to sit back and listen while people who don’t present suspects of their own choose to only post when it’s to attack a suspect and cast doubt on them. That’s trolling.

I also have said that Ross being 6ft2, is taller than most descriptions of Zodiac.

But, facts are facts, he’s the closest match of any suspect to the Zodiac sketch, and if you can’t admit that, then you aren’t being honest. He has the widow’s peak hairline as Fouke stated. He was very stocky, overweight, solid, beefy, whatever you want to call him, just as Zodiac was described. Zodiac at Lake Berryessa was well over 200 pounds, and Ross was well over 200 pounds. If you want to say that things that rule him out are that he can’t be placed in Vallejo area, or that he’s tall, that’s fine, but don’t say his frown lines or nose doesn’t match the Zodiac sketch. That’s the silliest argument ever. Do you really think that the sketch artist and witnesses could get every detail of Zodiac right down to wrinkles and lines? It’s silly. Fact is, Ross looks extremely close to the sketch, and was in the RCC library where Zodiac’s writing was found. If you want to bring forward any other suspects that were in that library and look very close to the Z sketch, give me their info, I’ll be happy to check them out for you.

The frustration comes from going round and round over the same points.
Trolls come on and make the same argument every time.

1) We picked Ross as a suspect ONLY because he looks like the sketch.
2) Riverside is not confirmed Zodiac.

These points only show a lack of knowledge regarding the case.

Ross is not a suspect because of his look. No popular suspect has ever been included or excluded based on the sketch alone.

The folks who became interested in Ross, started with a great understanding and knowledge of the case. And with that understood the importance of the Riverside connection. Starting at the possible beginning of the crimes led to Ross. (This started years before us with the work of Dave Peterson). Up to 2013 no one knew two things: if Ross had a connection to SF, and what he looked like. Finding a great suspect in the CJB case that also lived in SF + could easily match the sketch lit a fire of interest. Much more info has been dug up, and much more still needs to be unearthed.

Claiming that Ross can’t be Z based only on the sketch is flat out hubris.

The second point regarding the Riverside connection has also been round and round. The evidence is simply that a connection is very possible. The best attempts to explain this connection away have led to convoluted copy-cat theories, that never hold up to any scrutiny.

Good points Paul.

People have stated, that either "Bates isn’t a Zodiac victim" so they think Ross is only connected to her. It DOES NOT matter if she was or she wasn’t, I only care if Zodiac wrote the Bates letters & desktop poem. According to the CA DOJ the Bates & Riverside writing is part of Zodiac evidence.

Then people say, "well Morrill identified the 1978 letter as Zodiac, and that wasn’t Zodiac, so how do we know he isn’t mistaken about the Riverside writing?". Let’s see, that 1978 also fooled John Shimoda, another questioned docs examiner, who finally reversed himself, so it must have been a pretty good fake. Plus, Morrill had been retired for several years when he identified that 78 letter initially as a Z letter,so he wasn’t even working the case at that time, and may have not even been using an original to do his examination. Bottom line or not, It’s painfully obvious that the confession letter writer was Zodiac. And the envelope that letter came in was Zodiac. Therefore, I am inclined to think the desk was Zodiac as well.

Bottom line, I don’t care who somebody thinks or doesn’t think Zodiac was-that’s their business. I won’t lose sleep over it. But I don’t want people trolling Ross or any other suspect for trolling’s sake.

I feel like I have asked this question before but don’t feel like I am clear on the subject. Could someone tell me what specific 1978 letters are considered fake and why….aside from toschi. I heard a little something on that.

Thanks
Soze

I feel like I have asked this question before but don’t feel like I am clear on the subject. Could someone tell me what specific 1978 letters are considered fake and why….aside from toschi. I heard a little something on that.

Thanks
Soze

Any of them

I think Ross Sullivan is a very good POI for the Zodiac. I hope Zodiac Hunters continue to do more digging with this possible suspect. At this time I wouldn’t let anything disqualify anybody. We all know there are many twists and turns in the Zodiac mystery. There’s arguments galore about which crimes the Zodiac committed and what the real evidence is. Some believe the Zodiac may have been a team. Some people think the Zodiac hunters are seeking a ghost or a phantom who died years ago or never was nothing more than a hoax. I appreciate all the theories and all of the speculation that people have come up with over the years. As an proud Irish-American I’d hate like heck for the Zodiac to turn out to be a fellow Irish American with an Irish name like Sullivan. However, first and foremost I want the black mask to be ripped off of the Zodiac once for all.

I think Ross Sullivan is a very good POI for the Zodiac. I hope Zodiac Hunters continue to do more digging with this possible suspect. At this time I wouldn’t let anything disqualify anybody. We all know there are many twists and turns in the Zodiac mystery. There’s arguments galore about which crimes the Zodiac committed and what the real evidence is. Some believe the Zodiac may have been a team. Some people think the Zodiac hunters are seeking a ghost or a phantom who died years ago or never was nothing more than a hoax. I appreciate all the theories and all of the speculation that people have come up with over the years. As an proud Irish-American I’d hate like heck for the Zodiac to turn out to be a fellow Irish American with an Irish name like Sullivan. However, first and foremost I want the black mask to be ripped off of the Zodiac once for all.

That leads to an interesting point. Do they have quality DNA, and enough of that DNA in this case to determine heritage, ancestry,etc?? Can they make a DNA facial portrait as many agencies are doing with cases?

No POI in this case is a perfect one, they are "too tall" "too old" "too fat" "too thin" etc etc. Ross is no exception to this rule. But again, he looks identical to the sketch, and was in the RCC library where Zodiac’s writing was found. He took code courses of some sort,as per Dave Peterson….so for the love of God, can we just get a DNA test from a family member? Then, maybe the Ross ‘dissenters’ & ‘supporters’ will find out who’s correct.

Yes – DNA will probably be the only way this case could be solved once and for all. For all the enthralling suspects we discuss on here, I’ve a horrible feeling that Z was possibly just some complete non-descript janitor, cleaner, etc who no one would have even thought twice about and has no chance of being identified.

can we just get a DNA test from a family member? Then, maybe the Ross ‘dissenters’ & ‘supporters’ will find out who’s correct.

The profile LE has is partial. I would guess that his only living brother’s DNA would be close, but not a match to Ross.

The other option is simply prints. Ross had to have his prints taken at some point. LE should be able to dig those up.

I’ve a horrible feeling that Z was possibly just some complete non-descript janitor, cleaner, etc who no one would have even thought twice about and has no chance of being identified.

Z left way to much info about who he was to not be identified. If Ross was Z, it would make perfect sense as to why he was able to fly under the radar. Ross was connected to nothing during his time in the bay area. The same dismissal members give him today based on mental health, probably also benefited him back then.

If Ross was not Z, it would be the greatest case of Zynchronicity ever. When you take a guy who fits that well into the profile, happened to be in all the places at the right times, and even have been a contemporary suspect by multiple sources. At some point you have to admit that maybe Z was not perfect and left behind a trail of evidence that just needed to be placed in the correct order for it to all make perfect sense.

One thing that pushes Sullivan forward to me as a strong candidate to be the Zodiac Killer is that he died many years ago in the Seventies. A dead man has the best alibi of all. The Zodiac also wen stone cold quiet shortly before Ross died. I think if the Zodiac would have lived into the Eighties, Nineties and the 21st century the temptation to revitalize his career (through taunting letters, more codes and more outrageous murders) would have been too strong to resist. I think a arch-criminal like the Zodiac never retires: either they are captured or die.

Getting a DNA test with a member of his family or tracking down his fingerprints could go a long, long ways towards solving the case. However, I wouldn’t let the DNA issue or a mismatch of fingerprints disqualify any major candidate. Perhaps the Zodiac’s did leave behind traceable and tangible clues but it doesn’t seem that LE were at their best in the case 50 years ago. How many times the letters were handled and they were stored could have produced false leads.

I see Ross Sullivan as being by far more viable than any other suspect at this point.

The ongoing debate as to whether or not Cheri Bates was a Z victim is, I think, irrelevant. Her murder needs to be solved simply because it was a murder–and a particularly disturbing one, at that. There is an abundance of info concerning this crime, which makes it perhaps more solvable than the others. And, of course, there is the possibility Z may in fact have killed Cheri. So, I suggest we combine our talents and concentrate on solving Cheri’s murder.
As far as dissenting from Ross being Cheri’s murderer, let me advance my "POI": 1. He attended Ramona High while Cheri was a freshman; 2. His initials are RH, matching the desktop poem signature; 3. He served active Navy service shortly before Cheri’s murder (footprints at the crime scene); 4. I suspect, but due to legal barriers cannot prove, that he attended Riverside City College while Cheri was a student there; 5. He was engaged to, and married, a young lady who also attended Ramona High when Cheri did; 6. RH’s fiancee lived right around the corner from Cheri’s home; 7. Before wedding RH, his fiancee was a librarian assistant at RCC; 8. In 1968-9, RH and his wife moved to San Jose, where he enrolled as a student with a Graphic Design major.

hi dag, all fits neatly. do you know if your guy new Ross Sulliavan.
can you pm me this POI name. or have you done that before? old age.
and by the way my other poi lived just around the corner from Cheri.

First off, let me say that I am not necessarily a Ross dissenter. In fact, my first reaction to seeing his photograph alongside the composite drawing made me immediately think he was a good match. Then the old cop in me kicked in, and I decided I’d better back off and look at some of the other information here. I’m still in that process, and I find several other POIs quite intriguing as well. I have several questions about Ross, but I really haven’t found a thread that seems the proper place to ask them. I also have some thoughts regarding why he may not be Z.

I’ve read this entire thread/or the pissing match it seems to have become. Sorry, I’m an old fart and tend to be quite blunt, probably more so as I’ve aged.

It seems to boil down to either he’s too tall or too fat or doesn’t exactly match the drawings. I can tell you from experience as an investigator that eye-witness descriptions are notoriously unreliable, even those made by police officers such as Don Fouke. I once attended an area investigator’s school of instruction. During one of the speaker’s lecture to us, a person walked onto the stage and handed something to the speaker then walked off. The speaker thanked the person and continued with his lecture for about another 5-10 minutes. At that time, he asked all of us to write down a description of the person who had walked onto the stage as well as a description of what he or she had done. Mind you, these were highly trained professional investigators. After giving us some time to write, the speaker selected about 10 officers at random and asked them to come up and read their descriptions. Thankfully, I was not one of them! Of the 10 descriptions, no two were a perfect match! In fact, some identified the person as female and some as male! True the encounter was brief, and we weren’t paying close attention to the person, but the stage was well lit and the person made sure he turned toward us as he exited the stage. Yet, we could not agree on a description! Once they brought the person back onto the stage, I was relieved to see that my description was close, much closer than some of the others. However, this was done to prove to us just how unreliable witness testimony can be, even those who are extremely well intentioned and not under a great deal of stress.

Now imagine it is at night and you are being shot by the person you are trying to describe, or that you simply passed the person on the street without realizing the importance of what you saw at the time. Even the people who saw the Paul Stine murder would have been under a great deal of stress at seeing such a sight.

Sorry for the long winded anecdote, but I intended to illustrate that, unlike what you hear from the TV lawyers, circumstantial evidence is usually the best you can get. Fingerprints or DNA at a crime scene will trump eye-witness testimony every time.

While the likeness to the composite is compelling, I think back to the ’60s and believe me, any high school or college yearbook would contain guys who look as much like the composite as Ross. I can think of several in my tiny midwestern high school that would be dead ringers, glasses and all. So, while I don’t think we can entirely discount the sketches, I don’t believe we can get too hung up on them either.

So, putting the sketch aside for the time being, what makes Ross a viable z and what doesn’t?

What fits?

He was in California at the time.
He was in Riverside during the time period of the CJB murder, although we don’t know if he was there on the day of the crime.
He worked in the library at RCC.
He was creepy according to at least some of the workers at the library. (Note: I have visited California a few times and have observed more than a few who fit that description).
It is quite possible that he knew CJB, although I have read nothing concrete in that regard.
He, according to the library worker interviewed on TV, wore military style boots and a long Army coat before but not after CJBs murder.
He was missing for a time after her murder.
There seems to be some connection between the CJB murder and Z.
He moved from Riverside to Santa Cruz, which put him closer to the area of the other Z crimes.
His brother apparently thought he was Z. (Is there credible proof of this?)
According to the TV show last week, he took a cryptology class at RCC.
He was apparently relatively intelligent since he did at least attend college.
He had a history of mental illness, although we don’t know exactly what that illness was.

Questions I have.

Is there a known connection to Vallejo?
Could someone with his mental disability carry out these crimes, write the letters, write the codes, and elude police for nearly 50 years?
Would Riverside PD keep their information so close to the vest if they knew their suspect died in 1977? What would be the point?
Does Ross have any history of violent behavior? Cavorting naked in a dazed trance isn’t especially violent. Granted a man was pinned inside a phone booth, but Ross may have simply stood in front of the door, not necessarily in a threatening manner.
Is there any other criminal activity?
Did Ross have a car? A driver’s license? Santa Cruz is 90 to 136 miles from the Z murders.
Can someone whose employment consisted of library aid and dishwasher be mentally capable of not just committing these crimes, but of taunting police with calls, letters, cards, and get away with it? Perhaps he chose those insignificant jobs to stay under the radar so to speak…pure conjecture on my part.
We don’t have enough of his writing to compare either style or content.
What size shoe did he wear?
Would military boots, like those described by the librarian, have a pattern on the heel like the print left by the killer? The print looks more like a shoe print to me.

Comments

Being an ex-cop, I tend to be a skeptic, so please keep that in mind.
Physical descriptions vary so widely as to neither include nor exclude him as far as I’m concerned.
While I have studied forensic handwriting analysis, I am far from an expert. I do know that printed writing is more difficult to compare than cursive writing. That said, I cannot see the similarity between the "Bates had to die" letters and the Z letters. The letters have a different slant and many letters don’t seem to match to me. Are these the letters that the document examiner said were a match? I’m not convinced.
The desk poem seems like a red herring to me, though probably not an intentional one. I have my doubts that it is even connected.
One of the things I noticed in the Z handwritten letters is that, even though they are written on unlined paper, the lines of writing are very straight across the page. The Bates notes are rather jumbled, certainly not straight, even though they were written on lined paper. The poem is also not straight.
While there is certainly enough to keep Ross on the suspect list, my gut feeling is he was a creepy, mental guy who happened to have a connection to RCC library at the wrong time. Unless a lot more evidence can be found, I don’t think he’ll ever progress beyond a person of interest.

Sorry for the long post. Besides being a cop, I was an English major.

Hi R Vance….I’m pretty much labeled a skeptic myself.

Ross’ brother told me Ross was a schizophrenic.