Sorry to disappoint you, but handwriting analysis isn’t crap, it helps convict & clear people in this country every day

That’s pretty sad if handwriting analysis alone clears, or even worse, convicts anyone in this country. I’ve read many posts from you before where you’ve said you also hope individuals aren’t cleared on handwriting analysis.

do you fact checking before you make a statement like that or rephrase your statement and start it with, "in my opinion".

Nope, I fact check. It’s not my opinion that handwriting analysis is useless psuedoscience, it’s fact:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea … it-science

http://science.howstuffworks.com/handwr … lysis2.htm

As far as "what FBI docs support his findings?" this one supports Morrill’s findings- I circled it for you, the FBI clearly states that one writer could have prepared all of the docs

Ok, let’s read what that document concludes.

To quote the text you nicely circled for me:

"However, consistent hand printing characteristics were noted in the Q98 through Qc100 letters"

What’s included in that evidence? Qc100 is the Riverside desktop poem and Riverside letters, and Q99 is this fake zodiac letter from 1978

Do you also conclude the 1978 letter was authored by the same person who authored the Riverside letters?

@1Doctor wrote-

"What FBI docs support his findings? Just because a chiropractor has a degree, doesn’t make his field a valid field of medicine, either. Even if you find an FBI doc saying "yeah we believe in marrill" doesn’t mean anything, to be frank. I can find you a ton of studies on the actual effictiveness of graphogorphy, who would you rather believe?

Sorry, but handwriting analysis is crap."

Sorry to disappoint you, but handwriting analysis isn’t crap, it helps convict & clear people in this country every day, do you fact checking before you make a statement like that or rephrase your statement and start it with, "in my opinion". Is a writing opinion as powerful or conclusive as a DNA or print match? Of course not, but it’s one tool in the tool shed,and authorities & courts use it every day.

As far as "what FBI docs support his findings?" this one supports Morrill’s findings- I circled it for you, the FBI clearly states that one writer could have prepared all of the docs

I just don’t see how this helps!

Deliberately distorted, etc. Therefore, it’s "inconclusive", but….it "may" have been.

Nope, I fact check. It’s not my opinion that handwriting analysis is useless psuedoscience, it’s fact:

But you continue to fall back on how handwriting analysis as evidence proves that the Riverside connection is false.

Have you looked at the work Trav did on this site that shows the very clear similarities?

What about the military boot print?
What about the double postage?
What about the calls to police?
What about the letters to papers asking to be published?
What about the use of "shall" and the misspelling of "twitch?"
What about the Riverside letters stopping and the Z crimes starting?

All coincidences and a 0% chance of a connection? Good luck with that position.

As for the 1978 letter, by all the twisted logic that goes on here, can you prove that Ross didn’t write that letter? Maybe it was written and mailed after his death. I don’t believe that’s what happened, but it seems as logical as dismissal of all evidence.

"Evidence" is proof, Paul.

"Similarities", at this point, is more fitting.

Here’s another interesting question about Ross even being the perpetrator of the CJB murder. Here’s an excerpt from the zodiac DOJ report regarding the footprint at the scene:

One thing that the Z murders and RCC murders have in common is the military shoe-print left at the scene. However, Ross never served. I’m sure you can buy them at surplus stores, but would that mean Ross only buys his shoes at surplus stores? Or only buys his "murdering" shoes at surplus stores? If so, why? He didn’t work a job that needed military boots. He wasn’t an aviator, he didn’t work with ordinance, he didn’t lift anything heavy. We know he worked as a grill cook and as a librarian’s assistant.

Do we have any photographs of Ross with shoes on?

EDIT: I’m not sure about back in the 60’s, but when I was in the service, you couldn’t buy items from the PX without a military ID. You couldn’t even get on post without someone signing you in.

Now the argument is: how is it possible a civilian can buy military surplus?

"Evidence" is proof, Paul.

And no Tahoe, Evidence is not proof.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?EvidenceVersusProof

"Evidence" is proof, Paul.

And no Tahoe, Evidence is not proof.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?EvidenceVersusProof

Well, if this person says so, that must be the case…whoever it is. (insert wiki link here)

BUT THANKS FOR THE LARGE FONT, BOLDING AND UNDERLINING BECAUSE NO ONE WOULD UNDERSTAND YOU IF YOU DIDN’T DO THAT.

Now the argument is: how is it possible a civilian can buy military surplus?

You’re the only one who made that an argument

Zodiac was in the Library, probably.

Ross was in the Library, so therefor he must be Zodiac… I don’t think that follows logically.

Has Anybody said this???? I think we are saying, he should be looked at to make sure he was properly ruled out. Anybody that was in the RCC library that closely resembled the Z sketch should be looked at. Problem is, Ross is the only one so far we have found. If you can find others, please, bring their info to us, we will look at them too

Did anyone say that exact phrase? I don’t know. I think it was clear that I was using a rhetorical framing device, and not directly quoting someone or I would have attributed it. The idea is that If someone believes that Ross was the Zodiac that is the line of reasoning that they have followed. My post was to unravel that reasoning back to it’s starting point and to see which following items are useful and which are not.

What about the Riverside letters stopping and the Z crimes starting?

2 years later. This is the too loose time correlation I was talking about. There were many other crimes in many other places between then that presumably have nothing to do with Zodiac. In other words that is not significant in assuming a connection.

I agree with most of your other items. I’m not sure just how unique the phrasing is, but coupled with the other signature elements it makes the strongest link. I don’t agree with Doctor 1 if he thinks there is a good reason to totally disconnect Zodiac from Riverside.

The shoes don’t mean anything to me, though. Maybe if you could actually tie 10 1/2 Wing Walkers to a suspect, but as a general item they are common. Z changed his clothes and his weapons every time. Did he wear the same shoes for all the crimes over the years, or did he just keep buying the same kind? I don’t think that goes anywhere.

To chime in on the writing analysis: Graphology is bullshit. That means determining psychological and personal aspects of someone based on their writing. That is not the same thing as handwriting analysis, which is just comparing similarities in handwriting.

One of those links cites the forged Hitler diaries that were deemed authentic as an example of why handwriting analysis is faulty. But if you read the article is states that the comparisons that were used to determine were also forgeries made by the same person, so that actually proves that they did accurately match the handwriting. It just wasn’t from Hitler. That goes against the argument of the article.

Sure handwriting analysis isn’t a science, but scientific certainty is not required for evidence in a court of law. Eye witness testimony is allowed and that is far from scientific, and actually well known to be unreliable.

To chime in on the writing analysis: Graphology is bullshit. That means determining psychological and personal aspects of someone based on their writing. That is not the same thing as handwriting analysis, which is just comparing similarities in handwriting.

One of those links cites the forged Hitler diaries that were deemed authentic as an example of why handwriting analysis is faulty. But if you read the article is states that the comparisons that were used to determine were also forgeries made by the same person, so that actually proves that they did accurately match the handwriting. It just wasn’t from Hitler. That goes against the argument of the article.

Sure handwriting analysis isn’t a science, but scientific certainty is not required for evidence in a court of law. Eye witness testimony is allowed and that is far from scientific, and actually well known to be unreliable.

The point of the Hitler comparison is that there needs to be a predetermined agreed "original" to compare potential matches. There are many manuscripts of Hitlers, and the fraudster managed to convince them, twice, or a duplicate.

The article further contends that handwriting analysis is never peer reviewed or tested for accuracy, which also evaded any sort of scientific scrutiny. It doesn’t have to be scientific certainty, but it isn’t even scientifically accurate. Don’t you feel it should be?

Consider those handwriting analysts who are involved with the case today. How many have said their POI wrote the letters? Certainly they would all testify in court about their expertise…and they’d all claim to be correct.

This happened during Zodiac’s time too.

I am NOT trying to compare Morrill with these people (and most of you know who I am talking about, I’d just rather not even bring them up). At least the people involved directly with the Zodiac case, the majority of the time, had actual letters.

Zodiac was in the Library, probably.

Ross was in the Library, so therefor he must be Zodiac… I don’t think that follows logically.

"Ross was the only Zodiac suspect in the Library" The fact that he was there is the reason why he was a suspect. If he wasn’t there, he wouldn’t be a suspect. So him being there doesn’t give additional weight to him as a suspect. It only gives additional weight because people have framed it as an exclusionary category. ALA was the only suspect at the Lake. So what makes Ross a better suspect? That makes them even.

In order to make him a "better" suspect you need to keep adding more exclusionary items until you get a list of things that only apply to him, while dismissing the things that don’t apply to him or could apply to other suspects. And none of it bolsters the original item.

He looked like the sketch. Except for the people who said he didn’t. It doesn’t matter because that is not exclusive to Ross, so it doesn’t add weight, no pun intended. The exact same thing was argued for ALA who was too fat to be Zodiac.

He was mentally ill. There is no reason to think that Zodiac was, and nothing to suggest that Ross mental illness made him violent. He was described as not being violent. He might have been violent, but there is no correlation to his mental illness or to Zodiacs, if he was. That is totally worthless as evidence.

Back to the Library. He wasn’t working there on the night Cheri was killed. Because he was the killer or because he wasn’t there at all? Wouldn’t it make more sense if he was there working and saw her and then followed her out after the library closed? Instead we are supposed to believe that he either followed her there, which would make him working there a total coincidence to his being there. Or he was there for some reason on his day off, the people who knew him didn’t see him there, and he just decided to attack Cheri at that moment in the place where he was connected to and most likely to be noticed.

With that scenario in mind, it doesn’t really mean all that much to me to have someone who worked at the Library. Her killer didn’t need to have any connection to the library, save for being there to write the poem at some point. That could be anyone who was connected to RCC. How many of those guys looked like the sketch and were nuts? Who knows? And if you want to imagine a scenario where the killer came back later and wrote the poem, then he doesn’t even need to have any prior connection to RCC.

He moved away like a year later. Yes, he needed to be there to write the anniversary letters. Well, actually not really, he just needed to come back if he left. It would make sense and be a whole lot suspicious if he moved away immediately after the murder. And if he was there on the night of it. The things that people think make him look suspicious are things that are the opposite of what would be suspicious in any other case.

That’s again the same argument that was made for ALA’s timeline. Do I really need to elaborate why it doesn’t mean much to allow months between dates and saying that is a significant connection?

It all boils down to the Librarian thinks he did it because he was creepy. Does that make him a good suspect? That is the same reason why Rick Marshall, ALA, Gyke, and a dozen others were suspects.

I think this is a very logical post.

Here’s another interesting question about Ross even being the perpetrator of the CJB murder. Here’s an excerpt from the zodiac DOJ report regarding the footprint at the scene:

One thing that the Z murders and RCC murders have in common is the military shoe-print left at the scene. However, Ross never served. I’m sure you can buy them at surplus stores, but would that mean Ross only buys his shoes at surplus stores? Or only buys his "murdering" shoes at surplus stores? If so, why? He didn’t work a job that needed military boots. He wasn’t an aviator, he didn’t work with ordinance, he didn’t lift anything heavy. We know he worked as a grill cook and as a librarian’s assistant.

Do we have any photographs of Ross with shoes on?

EDIT: I’m not sure about back in the 60’s, but when I was in the service, you couldn’t buy items from the PX without a military ID. You couldn’t even get on post without someone signing you in.

We don’t have pics of Ross with shoes on, and again, Zodiac could be the Bates letter writer/Desktop writer, and NOT Cheri’s killer, that’s been established