Here’s another interesting question about Ross even being the perpetrator of the CJB murder. Here’s an excerpt from the zodiac DOJ report regarding the footprint at the scene:

One thing that the Z murders and RCC murders have in common is the military shoe-print left at the scene. However, Ross never served. I’m sure you can buy them at surplus stores, but would that mean Ross only buys his shoes at surplus stores? Or only buys his "murdering" shoes at surplus stores? If so, why? He didn’t work a job that needed military boots. He wasn’t an aviator, he didn’t work with ordinance, he didn’t lift anything heavy. We know he worked as a grill cook and as a librarian’s assistant.

Do we have any photographs of Ross with shoes on?

EDIT: I’m not sure about back in the 60’s, but when I was in the service, you couldn’t buy items from the PX without a military ID. You couldn’t even get on post without someone signing you in.

We don’t have pics of Ross with shoes on, and again, Zodiac could be the Bates letter writer/Desktop writer, and NOT Cheri’s killer, that’s been established

I agree with both your points, Mike. Are you insinuating, however, that its plausible Ross wrote the poem/letters but wasn’t the footprint bearer/CJB murderer?

Here’s another interesting question about Ross even being the perpetrator of the CJB murder. Here’s an excerpt from the zodiac DOJ report regarding the footprint at the scene:

One thing that the Z murders and RCC murders have in common is the military shoe-print left at the scene. However, Ross never served. I’m sure you can buy them at surplus stores, but would that mean Ross only buys his shoes at surplus stores? Or only buys his "murdering" shoes at surplus stores? If so, why? He didn’t work a job that needed military boots. He wasn’t an aviator, he didn’t work with ordinance, he didn’t lift anything heavy. We know he worked as a grill cook and as a librarian’s assistant.

Do we have any photographs of Ross with shoes on?

EDIT: I’m not sure about back in the 60’s, but when I was in the service, you couldn’t buy items from the PX without a military ID. You couldn’t even get on post without someone signing you in.

We don’t have pics of Ross with shoes on, and again, Zodiac could be the Bates letter writer/Desktop writer, and NOT Cheri’s killer, that’s been established

I agree with both your points, Mike. Are you insinuating, however, that its plausible Ross wrote the poem/letters but wasn’t the footprint bearer/CJB murderer?

I am not insinuating anything, I am merely pointing out the fact that the Bates letter writer,Confession letter writer,Desktop writer(all one and the same in my personal opinion, and in Sherwood Morrill’s)may not be Cheri’s killer. It’s quite possible Cheri was not killed by Zodiac whomever he was, but he still wrote the writing in her case.

I am not insinuating anything, I am merely pointing out the fact that the Bates letter writer,Confession letter writer,Desktop writer(all one and the same in my personal opinion, and in Sherwood Morrill’s)may not be Cheri’s killer. It’s quite possible Cheri was not killed by Zodiac whomever he was, but he still wrote the writing in her case.

But what does that line of thought have to do with Ross?

I am not insinuating anything, I am merely pointing out the fact that the Bates letter writer,Confession letter writer,Desktop writer(all one and the same in my personal opinion, and in Sherwood Morrill’s)may not be Cheri’s killer. It’s quite possible Cheri was not killed by Zodiac whomever he was, but he still wrote the writing in her case.

But what does that line of thought have to do with Ross?

Zodiac,whether he was Ross or somebody else, may not have killed her.

Like I keep saying saying, it’s more economical to consider Bates’ killer and Zodiac one and the same. The Bates murder and discovery of the desktop poem occurred a few months from each other, which is coincidental-plus. This much seems certain: the desktop poem occurred before Bates’ murder; otherwise, it would either not have been initialed or, if initialed, would have had initials other than the killer’s, and been on top of the desk instead of underneath, so as to be easily found by LE.

I am not insinuating anything, I am merely pointing out the fact that the Bates letter writer,Confession letter writer,Desktop writer(all one and the same in my personal opinion, and in Sherwood Morrill’s)may not be Cheri’s killer. It’s quite possible Cheri was not killed by Zodiac whomever he was, but he still wrote the writing in her case.

But what does that line of thought have to do with Ross?

Zodiac,whether he was Ross or somebody else, may not have killed her.

I think in order for Ross to be even considered a viable Z suspect, he would have had to have killed CJB. If not, then what evidence is there to Ross and the other confirmed Z murders then?

All the strong evidence supporting Ross being Z is mostly through the idea that he’s CJB murderer and therefore a candidate for Z.

Re: hand writing analysis.

Handwriting analysis is circumstantial evidence, as it should be. Most of a criminal investigation is based on inference, which is a sort of rough probability. It’s really a moot point to speak of the scientific method because that is based on controlled variables. We’re dealing with the real world here; at a crime scene there are few controlled variables. There’s too many unknown factors, so we can’t make any assessments based on mathematical certain.

Do I need to go further than that? In a trial a prosecutor is going to argue their interpretation of the evidence. They will bring in experts who are qualified to call themselves as such, but it’s understood that they are giving a subjective opinion, not certain facts….even though they might say as much. The defense will do the same thing, but give a different interpretation and it’s up to a jury to decide which version they agree with. There isn’t going to be a third party to evaluate everything and offer an objective peer review.

You might say, "but we aren’t talking about trial evidence here". We’re not? I think that’s really all we can talk about.

Re: hand writing analysis.

Handwriting analysis is circumstantial evidence, as it should be. Most of a criminal investigation is based on inference, which is a sort of rough probability. It’s really a moot point to speak of the scientific method because that is based on controlled variables. We’re dealing with the real world here; at a crime scene there are few controlled variables. There’s too many unknown factors, so we can’t make any assessments based on mathematical certain.

Do I need to go further than that? In a trial a prosecutor is going to argue their interpretation of the evidence. They will bring in experts who are qualified to call themselves as such, but it’s understood that they are giving a subjective opinion, not certain facts….even though they might say as much. The defense will do the same thing, but give a different interpretation and it’s up to a jury to decide which version they agree with. There isn’t going to be a third party to evaluate everything and offer an objective peer review.

You might say, "but we aren’t talking about trial evidence here". We’re not? I think that’s really all we can talk about.

I agree very much with what you just said.

Except that some people on these threads are acting as defense counsel for Ross when we are still in the investigation phase and not the trial phase, other people are acting as jurors ( and confused about the difference between relevance and probative value ) when we are still in the investigation phase and not the trial phase, and other people are acting as investigators while we are still in the investigation phase and not the trial phase. And the investigators are pursuing their hobby as the see fit, which is by investigating Ross.

Some very good stuff from all sides here..

Make a list of evidence that pertains to ross..heck you can even do it with any of the poi’s…what do we know as fact…what we need is evidence that a prosecutor can use and not what your feels are…the list will probably be very short..but hey this case is alive and under investigation by many of you and that is a good thing.. the victims need somebody to care and i know many of you do…

Some very good stuff from all sides here..

Make a list of evidence that pertains to ross..heck you can even do it with any of the poi’s…what do we know as fact…what we need is evidence that a prosecutor can use and not what your feels are…the list will probably be very short..but hey this case is alive and under investigation by many of you and that is a good thing.. the victims need somebody to care and i know many of you do…

Hell I would say many of us care! I know you aren’t saying that against the dissenters, but I think some may feel that we don’t. Personally, however, I still believe in innocence until guilt has been proven.

Also when I’ve got more time to sit down and construct my thoughts, I’ll respond to ducklings post from earlier regarding the legal sector

All good doc..i will say if i walked into my states attorney’s office with what is known as factual on any of the poi’s half my ass would be left in her office..be a very short meeting too..defense attorney would eat me for lunch and that is just a fact of this entire z case…but all is not lost…all of sudden you guys are looking for ross’s published poem or poems..it would be great if that could be found..wont know unless you try..id love to read some of ross’s poetry and see if it could be linked to rh and the desktop poem…hell we might find some similarities in some of the known z’s correspondence as well..keep digging guys..i know you give a damn or you would not be here

@1Doctor I’m starting to think, that you are deliberately bringing this back up to push buttons. How many times can I say this, Zodiac could have written the letters & Desktop poem, and NOT, I repeat, NOT killed Cheri!!!! This has long been a distinct possibility. Are we clear?

Now,let’s look for People in the RCC library where Zodiac’s writing was linked. Who do we have? Anybody that resembles the Z sketch, and went on from Riverside to northern CA???? Oh yeah, one so far, ROSS SULLIVAN. That’s why many of us consider him a logical suspect and worthy of research.
You keep stating he’s not a good Z suspect of he likely didn’t kill Cheri,and it simply doesn’t matter if Ross/Zodiac killed Cheri, they still could have written the letters in her case, and on the desk

@1Doctor I’m starting to think, that you are deliberately bringing this back up to push buttons. How many times can I say this, Zodiac could have written the letters & Desktop poem, and NOT, I repeat, NOT killed Cheri!!!! This has long been a distinct possibility. Are we clear?

Now,let’s look for People in the RCC library where Zodiac’s writing was linked. Who do we have? Anybody that resembles the Z sketch, and went on from Riverside to northern CA???? Oh yeah, one so far, ROSS SULLIVAN. That’s why many of us consider him a logical suspect and worthy of research.
You keep stating he’s not a good Z suspect of he likely didn’t kill Cheri,and it simply doesn’t matter if Ross/Zodiac killed Cheri, they still could have written the letters in her case, and on the desk

I’m not doing anything deliberately to push buttons, I’m trying to point out the logical inconsistancies.

Here’s one, for instance: you reckon it’s completely possible that Z went to RCC, wrote the desktop poem and murder letters about CJB, but wasn’t her murderer? Then he went on to do actual other murders, wearing the same style shoes as the CJB murderer?

This is my point that I guess I’m not articulating well enough because you think I’m doing it to rile you up. The only thing that gives Ross any sort of actual evidence at all is 2 things, and that’s because he looks like the sketch and he was in the RCC library. However the physical evidence of murders do not suggest Ross being involved in any murders, at all.

I guess you put a lot of faith in Sherwood Morrills findings and conclusions. I do not. I find it very unlikely the mere possibility that the zodiac went to RCC on campus during a murder, then harrassed that murder victims parents and police, then went to actually committing the murders himself and terrorize lovers lanes on Vallejo 4 years later.

I think if we’re even going to humor the idea that Zodiac was at RCC and wrote those letters and even desktop poem (one which we have no way of determining its age) then we must also name him the killer as well.

It’s very difficult to try to legitimately weigh Ross as a subject when the goalposts keep being shifted. You assert he was there at RCC and in the library and even may have known CJB. I use the physical evidence of the murder to suggest it was probably not Ross. Then I hear "k well it may be a mystery man murderer but
Z wrote the letters and poems though!"

I’m not doing anything to be aggravating on purpose, I’m just giving a dissenting opinion. You’d more than likely hear these similar problems if you brought this case as it currently is to a prosecutor. And if he took it, then you’d hear all about it from the defence.

I, too, have doubts that Sullivan was Zodiac, principally because of his disorganized personality. I find it difficult to meld a naked exhibitionist cum psychiatric patient with the cool, calculating killer we know as Zodiac.

@1Doctor I’m starting to think, that you are deliberately bringing this back up to push buttons. How many times can I say this, Zodiac could have written the letters & Desktop poem, and NOT, I repeat, NOT killed Cheri!!!! This has long been a distinct possibility. Are we clear?

Now,let’s look for People in the RCC library where Zodiac’s writing was linked. Who do we have? Anybody that resembles the Z sketch, and went on from Riverside to northern CA???? Oh yeah, one so far, ROSS SULLIVAN. That’s why many of us consider him a logical suspect and worthy of research.
You keep stating he’s not a good Z suspect of he likely didn’t kill Cheri,and it simply doesn’t matter if Ross/Zodiac killed Cheri, they still could have written the letters in her case, and on the desk

I’m not doing anything deliberately to push buttons, I’m trying to point out the logical inconsistancies.

Here’s one, for instance: you reckon it’s completely possible that Z went to RCC, wrote the desktop poem and murder letters about CJB, but wasn’t her murderer? Then he went on to do actual other murders, wearing the same style shoes as the CJB murderer?

This is my point that I guess I’m not articulating well enough because you think I’m doing it to rile you up. The only thing that gives Ross any sort of actual evidence at all is 2 things, and that’s because he looks like the sketch and he was in the RCC library. However the physical evidence of murders do not suggest Ross being involved in any murders, at all.

I guess you put a lot of faith in Sherwood Morrills findings and conclusions. I do not. I find it very unlikely the mere possibility that the zodiac went to RCC on campus during a murder, then harrassed that murder victims parents and police, then went to actually committing the murders himself and terrorize lovers lanes on Vallejo 4 years later.

I think if we’re even going to humor the idea that Zodiac was at RCC and wrote those letters and even desktop poem (one which we have no way of determining its age) then we must also name him the killer as well.

It’s very difficult to try to legitimately weigh Ross as a subject when the goalposts keep being shifted. You assert he was there at RCC and in the library and even may have known CJB. I use the physical evidence of the murder to suggest it was probably not Ross. Then I hear "k well it may be a mystery man murderer but
Z wrote the letters and poems though!"

I’m not doing anything to be aggravating on purpose, I’m just giving a dissenting opinion. You’d more than likely hear these similar problems if you brought this case as it currently is to a prosecutor. And if he took it, then you’d hear all about it from the defence.

As I stated, I do put a lot of faith in Morrill as the trained, respected Expert,and the FBI backing his findings up. So,say for a moment the experts are right, and you are wrong, and Zodiac was in the RCC Library, then it’s a fact, anybody that looks like the Stine sketch, that was in the RCC Library,needs to be looked at, including Ross.

Everybody has the right to a personal opinion when it comes to the handwriting,but also, respect the fact the link was made by a well trained, highly experienced,expert document examiner,mot some fly by night,self described writing expert. But, don’t just take Morrrill’s word for it, look at the Riverside writing as a whole, in addition to the writing link, we have letters with multiple stamps, same as Z. The writer uses the word ‘shall'(not a common word to use in the U.S.),same as Z. The writer uses & misspells ‘Twitch’,same as Z. The writer mentioned also calling the police after the attack,same as Z did. The writer wanted to letter published, so did Z. The writer signs off with a Z symbol.

I don’t know why some People refuse to see,and accept this obvious link,the similarities, in addition to the writing match make it obvious, but like the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. Stay thirsty my friend!