I think if we’re even going to humor the idea that Zodiac was at RCC and wrote those letters and even desktop poem (one which we have no way of determining its age) then we must also name him the killer as well.

No, we don’t have to. Look at it like this. The person who murdered Paul Stine mailed letters with bloody pieces of his shirt. So its safe to say, Z mailed those letters. It is very probable that this handwriting links many of the other letters (and car door) in the Zodiac crimes years (most at least agree on this). This handwriting is also possibly linked to writing originating in Riverside and RCC around 1966. Meaning Zodiac may have written the Riverside letters. He might have also murdered CJB, but that’s not the point. The link is in the writing. Everything else is just bonus connections.

So it really doesn’t matter what your opinions are as to who killed CJB, and your opinions about how a murderer in Vallejo 1969 might conduct his other crimes. The evidence supports the possibility of a Riverside connection.

Many members have taken the position that Ross simply can’t be Z and have stood by this position since day one. It’s very telling. Keep it up, just keep repeating the same debunked arguments over and over and over….

I do like the riverside connection on paper…i just do not know what value to place on that connection..it looks good but well may be z just wa ted to play the fear angle up…what we need is ross’s alibi….if that was fully vetted its game over..z and the whole shall angle is rather interesting and unique..outside of leo’s, leagal beagles and preachers you just do not see it often

Many members have taken the position that Ross simply can’t be Z and have stood by this position since day one. It’s very telling.

I don’t know about many members. I’ll take your word for it. But what is it telling of? If many people think this, then why can’t you consider that they might be correct? The implication seems to me to be that it’s a forgone conclusion that Ross is, if not Zodiac for sure, then at least the best suspect. It is not the consensus that everyone thinks that. I really only hear about him on this board and no one really made that big of a deal about him until a few years ago, even though he was known before then.

To be frank, it seems like you believe that he is guilty. There are a couple people here that make it sound like it’s plainly obvious and everyone who doesn’t agree is an idiot. That more than anything else is what has turned me off from Ross as a suspect. As I said, when people need to resort to True Belief that is a sign for me that they don’t have a good enough case to stand on it’s own.

1Doctor, you said something like "the physical evidence of the murder" of CJB goes against Ross. Can you elaborate on that?

I have not made up my mind completely, but think that there is a very strong possibility that Zodiac drafted The Confession Letter. Let’s make an objective comparison between The Confession Letter and the Little List Letter:

BUT I SHALL CUT OFF HER FEMALE PARTS AND DEPOSIT THEM FOR THE WHOLE CITY TO SEE. SO DON’T MAKE IT TO EASY FOR ME. KEEP YOUR SISTERS, DAUGHTERS, AND WIVES OFF THE STREETS AND ALLEYS. MISS BATES WAS STUPID. SHE WENT TO THE SLAUGHTER LIKE A LAMB. SHE DID NOT PUT UP A STRUGGLE. BUT I DID. IT WAS A BALL. . . . SHE WENT VERY WILLINGLY. HER BREAST FELT VERY WARM AND FIRM UNDER MY HANDS, BUT ONLY ONE THING WAS ON MY MIND. MAKING HER PAY FOR THE BRUSH OFFS THAT SHE HAD GIVEN ME DURING THE YEARS PRIOR. SHE DIED HARD. SHE SQUIRMED AND SHOOK AS I CHOAKED HER, AND HER LIPS TWICHED. . . . BUT THAT WILL NOT STOP THE GAME. THIS LETTER SHOULD BE PUBLISHED FOR ALL TO READ IT.

Some I shall tie over ant hills and watch them scream + twich and squirm. Others shall have pine splinters driven under their nails + then burned. Others shall be placed in cages + fed salt beef untill they are gorged then I shall listen to their pleass for water and I shall laugh at them. Others will hang by their thumbs + burn in the sun then I will rub them down with deep heat to warm them up. Others I shall skin them alive + let them run around screaming. And all billiard players I shall have them play in a darkened dungen cell with crooked cues + Twisted Shoes. Yes I shall have great fun inflicting the most delicious of pain to my slaves

They both have a very dark literary quality, include fantasies of mutilating other human beings, have spelling errors, and use some of the same no so commonly used words. And of course we have mention of some type of "game," and demands that the letter be published. So we can go around and around about whether these facts are coincidences or not. And for whatever reason some people have made up their mind that this could not be the same writer, no matter what the similarities are. We can go around and around about whether the use of the word "shall" is a coincidence or not. And we can go around and around about whether the misspellings are a coincidence or not.

But let’s consider the fact that Zodiac spelled twitch as "twich" in the Little List letter. This may be statistically, I mean mathematically, very significant. Twitch isn’t exactly the most frequently used word in the English language, and the Confession Letter does not have very many words. Zodiac’s letters, collectively, don’t have very many words. They fill up maybe several pages of a book.

What is the probability that two different killers used this infrequently used English word in anonymous letters to newspapers that described their crimes and fantasies of human mutilation, in the same State, within a few years of each other, and demanded that the letters be published, with such a small sample of total words to work with? Not very likely. And then, what is the probability that both killers would misspell this word the exact same way?

Not very likely. This is the reason why I think that Zodiac may have written the Confession Letter. You can have coincidences. But to have so many coincidences together, and this one coincidence that is very statistically improbable, that shows strong evidence that the writers could be the same person. Maybe not beyond a reasonable doubt. But definitely more likely than not.

EDIT: I found this website regarding word frequency in the English language:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktiona … ency_lists

According to the site, "twitch" is the 15,284th most frequently used word, and count is only 1,305 for every 1 billion words.

"Twitching" is actually more common, and is the 11,989th most frequently used word, and count is 2,505 for every 1 billion words.

I have to work now, but somebody needs to count how many words are in The Confession Letter and all of the confirmed Zodiac Letters, and consider the statistical probability of this word appearing in both, and then misspelled the exact same way in both.
.

Many members have taken the position that Ross simply can’t be Z and have stood by this position since day one. It’s very telling.

I don’t know about many members. I’ll take your word for it. But what is it telling of? If many people think this, then why can’t you consider that they might be correct? The implication seems to me to be that it’s a forgone conclusion that Ross is, if not Zodiac for sure, then at least the best suspect. It is not the consensus that everyone thinks that. I really only hear about him on this board and no one really made that big of a deal about him until a few years ago, even though he was known before then.

To be frank, it seems like you believe that he is guilty. There are a couple people here that make it sound like it’s plainly obvious and everyone who doesn’t agree is an idiot. That more than anything else is what has turned me off from Ross as a suspect. As I said, when people need to resort to True Belief that is a sign for me that they don’t have a good enough case to stand on it’s own.

1Doctor, you said something like "the physical evidence of the murder" of CJB goes against Ross. Can you elaborate on that?

Ross may have been ‘known’ before that,but he was never really checked out,at least on Z sites. Dave Peterson asked Toschi to look into him, and I hope he did and ruled him out, but we don’t see any evidence of that via a memo or document. And it was only a few years ago we finally got a photo and low & behold,it’s a spot on match to the Z sketch

I don’t know about many members. I’ll take your word for it. But what is it telling of?

Complete refusal to at least consider the possibility of a Riverside connection and with that Ross as a legit suspect, is what, hubris? Some members have had pet theories, and Ross as a suspect has made many pet theories seem much less realistic.

To be frank, it seems like you believe that he is guilty. There are a couple people here that make it sound like it’s plainly obvious and everyone who doesn’t agree is an idiot.

I think the odds of Ross being Z are very high. But I accept that it’s not 100%. If new information proved the Riverside connection being false, then this suspect would be cleared. To me it’s completely illogical to give the Riverside connection and the link to Ross a 0% chance of being a possibility.

There are other suspects who I don’t believe could have been Z, but none are at 0%. And if any new evidence came to light, I would accept it.

…And if any new evidence came to light, I would accept it.

Yet, as you stated, "evidence is not proof"…so it will be interesting to see if you would/will accept it.

What, aside of DNA, would be enough in your mind to drop Ross as a suspect? What could LE tell you that would clear your mind of Ross? That they checked his fingerprints, they knew he was institutionalized at the time…what? I ask this genuinely.

Yes, evidence is evidence, it is different than proof. You should really try and understand that.

For instance, if there was new evidence that say Gyke was in the RCC in 1966, the I would except that evidence (not resist it) and he would become a much more valid suspect. The alternative would be, I would have to outright dismiss any new evidence and refuse to accept him as a suspect.

But yes, DNA against the stamps would be good enough for me. Notes from the RPD investigation in 1966, not so much.

Yes, evidence is evidence, it is different than proof. You should really try and understand that.

For instance, if there was new evidence that say Gyke was in the RCC in 1966, the I would except that evidence (not resist it) and he would become a much more valid suspect. The alternative would be, I would have to outright dismiss any new evidence and refuse to accept him as a suspect.

But yes, DNA against the stamps would be good enough for me. Notes from the RPD investigation in 1966, not so much.

I am talking about Ross, aside of DNA. Not another suspect. Ross. What "evidence" would suffice?

Yes, evidence is evidence, it is different than proof. You should really try and understand that.

For instance, if there was new evidence that say Gyke was in the RCC in 1966, the I would except that evidence (not resist it) and he would become a much more valid suspect. The alternative would be, I would have to outright dismiss any new evidence and refuse to accept him as a suspect.

But yes, DNA against the stamps would be good enough for me. Notes from the RPD investigation in 1966, not so much.

I am talking about Ross, aside of DNA. Not another suspect. Ross. What "evidence" would suffice?

Ross prints (if they exist) against bloody cab prints.

In that case, DNA nor prints will ever be released until they got their suspact, otherwise it might lead to a mistrial.

QT

As I stated, I do put a lot of faith in Morrill as the trained, respected Expert,and the FBI backing his findings up.

You call them experts. I say they study a pseudoscientific field. I don’t think chiropractors practice medicine, either, and also study pseudoscience. So when you call them an expert, you must also be giving validation to the idea that forensic handwriting analysis is scientific. It don’t think it is. I think it’s guesswork, and so do many other investigators and scienticts.

Saying the FBI backs it up doesn’t matter to me, either. The FBI have been known to support pseudoscience in the past plenty of times, including recently?

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-new … 180955070/

I predict eventually handwriting analysis will also be concluded as bunk, as well. It’s only a matter of time.

Let’s a moment the experts are right, and you are wrong, and Zodiac was in the RCC Library, then it’s a fact, anybody that looks like the Stine sketch, that was in the RCC Library,needs to be looked at, including Ross.

Given my above reasoning, I will always find this request unreasonable, but I will do it in this instance. Let’s say zodiac is in the library as the poems writer. What does this prove? We don’t know when it was wrote, that’s also a fact. Also, no one’s ever answered why the zodiac would be the author of the letters but not the murderer himself? If it wasn’t a z murder, then this means he hasn’t murdered yet, so why would he be confessing to a murder before he was even a known murderer? What sense does that make? Why would he pick CJB’s murder to confess about? It’s the only murder ever unsolved in Riverside, so you’re telling me he knew to pick the only unsolved murder ever in Riverside to confess to?

Yes, it’s possible. No, its not probable. If I’m going to assume Z was in Riverside as you’ve asked me to do, then I’m going to be coerced in concluding he was the CJB murderer. It’s very interesting to feel assertive in you’re case enough to tell me to stay thirsty, yet must have me make unnatural assumptions to reach your position.

Everybody has the right to a personal opinion when it comes to the handwriting,but also, respect the fact the link was made by a well trained, highly experienced,expert document examiner,mot some fly by night,self described writing expert.

I am not sure who the self described writing expert is referring to, but I hope it’s not me as I’ve never said I’m anything of the sort.

We don’t know when it was wrote, that’s also a fact.

Heck, the desk could even be a transplant from another school. Possible, yes. Probable…not so much.

I have not made up my mind completely, but think that there is a very strong possibility that Zodiac drafted The Confession Letter. Let’s make an objective comparison between The Confession Letter and the Little List Letter:

BUT I SHALL CUT OFF HER FEMALE PARTS AND DEPOSIT THEM FOR THE WHOLE CITY TO SEE. SO DON’T MAKE IT TO EASY FOR ME. KEEP YOUR SISTERS, DAUGHTERS, AND WIVES OFF THE STREETS AND ALLEYS. MISS BATES WAS STUPID. SHE WENT TO THE SLAUGHTER LIKE A LAMB. SHE DID NOT PUT UP A STRUGGLE. BUT I DID. IT WAS A BALL. . . . SHE WENT VERY WILLINGLY. HER BREAST FELT VERY WARM AND FIRM UNDER MY HANDS, BUT ONLY ONE THING WAS ON MY MIND. MAKING HER PAY FOR THE BRUSH OFFS THAT SHE HAD GIVEN ME DURING THE YEARS PRIOR. SHE DIED HARD. SHE SQUIRMED AND SHOOK AS I CHOAKED HER, AND HER LIPS TWICHED. . . . BUT THAT WILL NOT STOP THE GAME. THIS LETTER SHOULD BE PUBLISHED FOR ALL TO READ IT.

Some I shall tie over ant hills and watch them scream + twich and squirm. Others shall have pine splinters driven under their nails + then burned. Others shall be placed in cages + fed salt beef untill they are gorged then I shall listen to their pleass for water and I shall laugh at them. Others will hang by their thumbs + burn in the sun then I will rub them down with deep heat to warm them up. Others I shall skin them alive + let them run around screaming. And all billiard players I shall have them play in a darkened dungen cell with crooked cues + Twisted Shoes. Yes I shall have great fun inflicting the most delicious of pain to my slaves

They both have a very dark literary quality, include fantasies of mutilating other human beings, have spelling errors, and use some of the same no so commonly used words. And of course we have mention of some type of "game," and demands that the letter be published. So we can go around and around about whether these facts are coincidences or not. And for whatever reason some people have made up their mind that this could not be the same writer, no matter what the similarities are. We can go around and around about whether the use of the word "shall" is a coincidence or not. And we can go around and around about whether the misspellings are a coincidence or not.

But let’s consider the fact that Zodiac spelled twitch as "twich" in the Little List letter. This may be statistically, I mean mathematically, very significant. Twitch isn’t exactly the most frequently used word in the English language, and the Confession Letter does not have very many words. Zodiac’s letters, collectively, don’t have very many words. They fill up maybe several pages of a book.

What is the probability that two different killers used this infrequently used English word in anonymous letters to newspapers that described their crimes and fantasies of human mutilation, in the same State, within a few years of each other, and demanded that the letters be published, with such a small sample of total words to work with? Not very likely. And then, what is the probability that both killers would misspell this word the exact same way?

Not very likely. This is the reason why I think that Zodiac may have written the Confession Letter. You can have coincidences. But to have so many coincidences together, and this one coincidence that is very statistically improbable, that shows strong evidence that the writers could be the same person. Maybe not beyond a reasonable doubt. But definitely more likely than not.

EDIT: I found this website regarding word frequency in the English language:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktiona … ency_lists

According to the site, "twitch" is the 15,284th most frequently used word, and count is only 1,305 for every 1 billion words.

"Twitching" is actually more common, and is the 11,989th most frequently used word, and count is 2,505 for every 1 billion words.

I have to work now, but somebody needs to count how many words are in The Confession Letter and all of the confirmed Zodiac Letters, and consider the statistical probability of this word appearing in both, and then misspelled the exact same way in both.
.

I like this approach, very logical. I agree that the similar features between the two letters are not likely coincidence — math is not my forte, but maybe I can take a general stab it it.

In the "Little List" letter, Z says: "I hope you do not think I was the one who wiped out that blue meannie with a bomb at the cop station. Even though I talked about killing school children with one. It just wouldn’t doo to move in on someone elses territory…"

So, we know he was aware of the exploits of other murderers, and "territory" refers to method, not region. Isn’t it quite possible Z was aware of the CJB case, and the attention the confession letter received?

If we find it easy to see the similarity between the Tim Holt reference to "By Knife," and that same phrase used on the LB car door and Halloween card (while not assuming Z must’ve been the writer of the TH comic book,) then wouldn’t it make sense that similarities between Riverside and Z could be explained by Z’s awareness of that case and its writings?

One other thing, somewhat random. Think of the time required to produce the 408 and 340 ciphers. Meticulous, painstaking work. If the objective was to produce the codes in neat, perfectly aligned rows and columns of symbols, while also disguising handwriting… why not use a typewriter? With upper and lower case letters, and the numbers and punctuation keys, there are plenty of symbols available on a typewriter. The guy who wrote the Riverside confession letter was familiar with typewriters and how to use them (how to disguise the type that is.) Since we know Z was able to get a different gun for each of his crimes, one would think obtaining a typewriter (or access to one) would not have been difficult.