I tend to agree with the duck. My h’s look like the Bates letter z when you turn them sideways, too. Meh. I raised an eyebrow when this was presented as a comparable match to the symbol; now we know it’s nothing more than another in a series of useless coincidences. Sure, Ross is a reasonable POI and it’s been discussed to death why that is. Reasons why he’s not Zodiac have been discussed to death as well. Maybe someone in LE will take a moment to check this yearbook sample out (assuming it’s legit), but it carries no weight if that’s the best ya got.

If you want to play around with handwriting some more, member Eric P Norman provided Ross’ Selective Service Records a few months ago. Ross contributed his signature. A couple individual letters look like those found in the Citizen letter… again, so do mine. Yawn.

The full thread is here… http://zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=106&t=2660&p=52514#p52514

Happy speculating!

I can even claim Ross’ "R" is identical to the one on the envelope addressed to Riverside PD.

And all I had to do was rotate the R 45 degrees. Hell, we can do this all day long.

We have to be very wary about coincidences. It is fairly easy to pick two people and find a lot of strange coincidences between them. It has to do with "the law of large numbers". One particular coincidence may seem rare, but there were millions of chances for a rare coincidence to appear. With enough chances, a rare coincidence is guaranteed to occur. I like to use the golf ball analogy. A single blade of grass in a huge field of grass feels very lucky to be struck by a golf ball. There are billions of other blades of grass yet I was hit! But certainly a blade was almost guaranteed to be struck by the ball.

When we examine a particular set of coincidences between two people, we have to consider how many blades of grass were around waiting to be struck by the ball.

Another useful example is the birthday paradox. In a room of only 23 people, there’s a 50% chance that two people share the same birthday. That seems weird, because there are 365 possible birthdays in a year! You might think only 23 comparisons of birthdays are happening, but in fact there are 231 comparisons of birthdays. WIth so many comparisons, that’s why the chance of a shared birthday goes up to 50%.

The coincidences dug up by investigators have to escape the "shadow of reasonable doubt" cast by this phenomenon.

I think the height description rules out Ross, or any other tall suspect. We have Mike Mageau, Brian Hartnell and the Stine witnesses all saying roughly the same thing. A man around 5′ 8" to 5′ 10" AKA average adult male height. Facial appearance and weight can change but height of an adult is locked, not counting for eye witness error. But 3 separate accounts of the Zodiacs height is pretty good to go on. I would also say that if Z was over 6 feet tall, that would be a pretty standout feature which no witness ever states.

That isn’t very useful for telling us who the Zodiac is. But it is very useful for telling us who the Zodiac most likely isn’t. It seems highly likely to me that Z is less than 6 feet tall, so very improbable that Ross Sullivan is our bad guy.

IMO.

So Ross has too many coincidences. He needs less things in common to be Z. And someone else’s "h" is similar to the Bates letter "h" so matches with Ross’ handwriting are irrelevant. I don’t get why it bothers some so much that others believe strongly in a poi.

Cecelia said he was two inches taller than the cop that was 5’10. Seeing a height from a seated position or a second story while in the dark makes it harder to tell, especially if Zodiac wasn’t standing straight. Hartnell said he’s a bad judge of height. So out of the four, I’d have to go with him being at least 6’0. Also, if he had a lumbering walk, it’s possible he slumped slightly and could appear to knock off an inch or two.

I think the height description rules out Ross, or any other tall suspect. We have Mike Mageau, Brian Hartnell and the Stine witnesses all saying roughly the same thing. A man around 5′ 8" to 5′ 10" AKA average adult male height.

Mageau I find rather useless as he is all over the place. His original statement to police was probably the most accurate, but I don’t really go by his height estimate. The shooter most likely bent down to shoot into the car and also to look into it when leaving so might have appeared short at a glance. I also believe Mageau was concussed at the first shot and in an addled state of mind.

The Stein witnesses saw him in the dark from a distance so I don’t consider them as reliable on height.

Hartnell was probably the best able to give an estimate, but he said he was bad at guessing height since being rather tall himself he was used to everyone else being shorter than him. I don’t think he ever stood up during the attack? If he had, he would have been better able to know if the attacker was taller or shorter than him. There is also the angle of the ground where they were, I believe it sloped downward so the attacker would have been sort of above them when approaching.

Cecilia Shepard got the longest look at him and estimated him to be a bit taller than the detective. We don’t know how much height the hood added to him either. Boots can add height as well.

I think best guess is around 6 foot, give or take an inch or two. That’s the thing for me however since I’d say unless someone is around 6-4 or taller height doesn’t really stand out. People are generally lousy at guessing height so in my opinion Zodiac’s height can be anywhere from around 5-10 to 6-2.

I’d say at 6-2, given added height of boots and possibly the hood, height would have been noticed and he would have appeared rather tall, enough for it to be a standout descriptive. Still to many variables for me to use height to rule out Ross Sullivan.

so very improbable that Ross Sullivan is our bad guy.

My main problem with Sullivan is his weight. Cecilia Shepard said the guy was "overweight", I think 300lbs would have caused her to describe him as more than "overweight". 6-2, 300lbs and I think everyone would have said "He was a big dude". I don’t think we know enough about Ross over his entire life to be certain on his weight however, weight can fluctuate rather quickly. Most descriptions of Zodiac describe him as "beefy", so I’d have to know how much of Ross’s weight was muscle and how much was fat.

I do agree with others that Sullivan’s height and weight is problematic when considering him as a suspect, but I not ready to say it can be used to rule him out.

It’s not "Cecelia Shepard said" though….it’s "Collins said, Cecelia said"…and he didn’t say any of that until 40+ years later and it almost mimics the Harntell interview in the hospital. Too many alterations come from a third party.

Lots of bogus stuff with this case.

It’s very odd that he waited so long to say it, but as he’s an officer, I believe it would be accepted as evidence at trial as a dying declaration. Has anyone asked Hartnell to verify her speaking to him?

It’s very odd that he waited so long to say it, but as he’s an officer, I believe it would be accepted as evidence at trial as a dying declaration. Has anyone asked Hartnell to verify her speaking to him?

And if I were the defense attorney, I’d claim Collins had dementia. That is why it is imperative to document EVERYTHING at the time it happens. As an officer…he knows that. Hence, his chuckle.

It’s not "Cecelia Shepard said" though….it’s "Collins said, Cecelia said"…and he didn’t say any of that until 40+ years later

Yes, excellent point. Easy to forget that. That he would not have made a report about it at the time is rather unbelievable. Reminds me of some things Fouke said.

It’s very odd that he waited so long to say it,

I suppose in fairness, it could be something that was withheld and is still being withheld. He might not should have mentioned it in the interview. I’m pretty sure there is still evidence the police have that we haven’t seen, they tend to hold back some things, that Shepard was still alive and spoke to them might be something they didn’t want out.

Often when I’m working out at the gym I’ll see a guy across the room and get an impression of his height (both tall & short) and
later on when I pass next to him in the aisle I realize my perception of his height was way off.

keep in mind the difference between 5’10 and 6’2 is only 4 inches, that is really not very much at all particularly at a distance
at night. also keep in mind the soil compaction tests done at Lake Berryessa by Ken Narlow in which he determined that Z
was way over 200 pounds.

Where does the 7-to-7 1/2-inch wristwatch found at Bates’ crime scene fit with Ross Sullivan being her killer?

Have all the Ross threads devolved into yet another attempt to disregard him based on height/weight whiteness description alone?

HAS ANY SUSPECT BEEN RULED OUT BY WITNESS DESCRIPTION ALONE?

There must have been a doppelganger who looked just like Ross, only 5’8", who tailed his every movement from 1966-1970, and also pulled off the Z crimes.
The doppelganger must have also been into crypto, theater and different types of handwriting.