On that note, I just sent an email to customer services at Zodiac (watches), asking for any information they might offer on the origin of the symbol. I suspect it’s just some kind of basic representation of the zodiac circle (but it doesn’t seem to be any obvious historical precedent for it) – and it may well be that the present-day people at the company have no idea about the origin. Anyway – if I hear anything interesting, I’ll report back (and post in a more appropriate thread).
Did you ever hear back? I was just reviewing Kim Rossmo’s geographic profile again and ran across this blurb about the symbol:
The only genuinely matching symbol appears to be the logo used on Zodiac watches. According to a company representative, the circle and cross represent a watch face and the Swiss cross, and is not derived from the astrological zodiac. This may suggest the Zodiac Killer either possessed a Zodiac watch or was at least familiar with their brand and logo. Current prices for Zodiac watches range from $150 to over $500; it is not known what their products sold for in the late 1960s.
Did you ever hear back?
Nope – nothing so far, just a brief message informing me that the question had been passed on to someone or other.
What Rossmo says certainly sounds very plausible, though: It has never occurred to me that it had something to do with the nationality of the company – but it makes perfect sense, of course. Swiss cross, like the one in the national flag.
Found by up2something, I think from the newly released letters:
Zodiac Killer: . I wish you a happy Christmas.
Ted Kaczynski: I wish you a happy Easter.
Best regards, Ted
(Below there is large) Z
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I wanted to thank you for putting together all of this wonderful information about Ted and Z, AK Wilks. When I first got into this case and read the similarities between the two I was pretty much convinced. This is more of a gut feeling thing though, which I of course recognize doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. I had never seen that journal entry you quote in your original post from Sept. 66 where he talks about leaving the doctors office. Eerie stuff given the timeline and his move to California. Hard to imagine those are the words of someone ready to wait 12 years to release that kind of rage. To be so desperate to touch a woman that you would become one…well sounds like a lot of unchecked anger at women.
Again speaking purely on a visceral feeling the one hang up I have with Ted as Z is the former seems to be much more ‘brilliant’ in a sense and Z almost comes across as middle to average intelligence. I guess the misspellings could be a masking tool but that kind of grammar is shocking in a sense. His choice in humorous cards have always struck me as particularly juvenile, for instance. I haven’t read Ted’s stuff in print and maybe the transcripts are fixed (as in errors removed) but he seemed to be a very accomplished writer (in sk terms). Furthermore would Ted have the confidence to carry on a conversation at LB? Or just simply be that intimate with his victims.
I don’t mean any of that to diminish your thorough and compelling information. That’s just the very silly, totally non evidence based hangup I have with Ted. I guess on a more practical sense his size is an issue but of course he wrote about body armor, I believe. Who knows. Anywho, thank you again. This is a great thread!
We know Kaczinsky was the Unabomber. He created a slightly false persona for himself with his press correspondence. The FBI profilers thought he was probably a blue collar worker, maybe an airplane mechanic, with little or no college. In fact, he was PHD former math professor. If he was the Z, and I think he was, it is not unreasonable to think he also created a false persona for himself in his correspondence for that activity.
Wesley – Thanks for your comments and question. Read the comment by EOTW above.
Ted was very aware that as someone with a PHD his education, vocabulary and knowledge would naturally tend to reveal itself in his letters. So he took great efforts to disguise his education in Unabomber writings. In one letter he complained to a professor "you said on your book that anyone with a college degree can easily learn to operate a computer. Well what about all the rest of us without degrees?"
If he was Zodiac he would have done a similar effort. At times Z spells hard words right but misspelled an easy word. I think the misspelled words, poor grammar, limited vocabulary, movie and pop culture themes of Zodiac are consistent with an effort by an educated person to disguise that fact.
I have written more on this topic, I’ll try to find it and bump it.
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Wesley – Thanks for your comments and question. Read the comment by EOTW above.
Ted was very aware that as someone with a PHD his education, vocabulary and knowledge would naturally tend to reveal itself in his letters. So he took great efforts to disguise his education in Unabomber writings. In one letter he complained to a professor "you said on your book that anyone with a college degree can easily learn to operate a computer. Well what about all the rest of us without degrees?"
If he was Zodiac he would have done a similar effort. At times Z spells hard words right but misspelled an easy word. I think the misspelled words, poor grammar, limited vocabulary, movie and pop culture themes of Zodiac are consistent with an effort by an educated person to disguise that fact.
I have written more on this topic, I’ll try to find it and bump it.
That’s really interesting, I didn’t remember that from Ted’s writing. Thanks again for sharing.
We know Kaczynski was the Unabomber. He created a slightly false persona for himself with his press correspondence. The FBI profilers thought he was probably a blue collar worker, maybe an airplane mechanic, with little or no college. In fact, he was PHD former math professor. If he was the Z, and I think he was, it is not unreasonable to think he also created a false persona for himself in his correspondence for that activity.
That is right. Through very carefully left false clues, limited vocabulary, intentional mistakes and expressing grievances of a non – college educated person, Ted convinced the FBI the Unabomber was a blue collar mechanic with nothing more than a high school diploma. He successfully disguised the fact that he was a former professor with a PHD.
If Ted was Z, I think he did a similar effort. Intentional misspelled words, limited vocabulary, discussion of pop culture things like movies.
Though as Z he did some things that reflect on him. The discussion of radians points to someone with some math and geology background. Creation of complex codes could point to someone with either military code experience or, again, math experience. Also the mention of a Gilbert & Sullivan opera might tend to point to someone with more of an educated middle class upbringing. Ted in fact listened to opera on records and as the Unabomber made several allusions to opera (Wagner’s Ring Cycle).
All the more reason to be sure to misspell words, use questionable grammar, refer to guns, cars, Halloween, the Zodiac and movies.
Also for Wesley and anyone else interested, go to page one of the thread I bumped, Kaczynski and Zodiac: Shared Words, Phrases and Handwriting, to see how many of those things they did share.
MODERATOR
The thing that seems pretty fishy about Ted K is although he was considered a suspect at one time, he was never officially cleared. I’m no handwriting expert, but his handwriting is closer than any other suspect, from what I’ve gathered. Also, they recently found some new DNA but they still have never tested Kaczinsky’s DNA against the Zodiac envelopes, not that the latter can be considered unequivocally the Z’s DNA anyway.
Wow after reading this. It is very interesting and makes alot of sense.
Hi AK, hello all.
I noticed in some recently released Ted Kaczynski letters – specifically one that he wrote to his lawyer – that he refers to ‘winning’ whilst operating as the Unabomber.
This seems to reflect the way the Zodiac viewed what he was doing, keeping score against the police.
You can read the letters here. The specific reference is on the second page, first paragraph.
Hi AK, hello all.
I noticed in some recently released Ted Kaczynski letters – specifically one that he wrote to his lawyer – that he refers to ‘winning’ whilst operating as the Unabomber.
This seems to reflect the way the Zodiac viewed what he was doing, keeping score against the police.
You can read the letters here. The specific reference is on the second page, first paragraph.
Good find! Nice to see you here Luke.
MODERATOR
and none of the others either.for me TK is an interesting character..I GET IT…there is zilch compelling evidence for any of the known POI’s I agree with that..no prosecutor would ever go into court with what we have now on any POI..it is all circumstantial evidence..stines shirt or a weapon needs to be found and linked back to one of the POI’s..it not going to happen though,,if TK’s brother would agree to a DNA test it might prove/disapprove of TK once and for all ..still TK holds my interest as a person of interest
You get it, but Douglas Oswell and some other people don’t get it. This is from Douglas Oswell’s essay on the unazod.com website:
"Statistically, the probability that any two individuals share the qualities listed above is very small. To calculate such a probability, one would have to begin with the relatively tiny population of known murderers, estimated at roughly .0089 percent of the entire population, or around 19,669 individuals out of the 221 million people living in the U.S. in 1969. From this figure must be deducted all females, all non-Caucasians, all those not in the age ranges of 25–45, all those not classified as "disaffected killers" (mass murder types), and all those not using murder as a vehicle for national publicity. Having done so, one will arrive at a figure of .62 (sixty-two one-hundredths) of an individual out of the original 221 million that was started with. That is, however, before accounting for specific, hard-to-quantify factors such as intelligence quotient, bomb-making, cryptography, mathematical abilities, simliarities in appearance, handwriting, and the lengthy list of quirks in style and tone that are manifested by Kaczynski and the Zodiac. One must also account for the existence of the line-in-circle graffiti left by both killers in conjunction with their crimes, and both killers’ use of literary allusion, a very rare quality indeed.
In the final analysis, the likelihood of any one person possessing all the qualities that identify both of these famous killers can be conservatively estimated at billions to one. And while this may not be tantamount to a "smoking gun," it nonetheless speaks volumes in terms of providing objective support to what comprises a very good subjective case for Kaczynski as a suspect."
Translation: Douglas Oswell is saying that there is less than a 1 in a billion chance that Ted Kaczynski is not the Zodiac killer.
Douglas Oswell’s reasoning here is a bunch of baloney. This is the cherry picking I wrote of almost three years ago.
I’ve now come to the conclusion that TK is 99% the Zodiac killer. This comes after thorough reading of TK’s papers and books, the psychological report by S.Johnson and the discussions on the internet (including this forum). There is little that I can add that has not been said before. I compared TK’s handwriting in his letters from prison and Zodiac’s letters and they look almost identical to me.Also "The Zodiac speaking" is an anagram for Theodore Kaczynski (not a perfect anagram but it contains all the letters contained in Theo Kaczynski except y). I could run a simulation with names randomly drawn from US phone books and calculate the odds of this event, which I suspect would be very very small.
Another hint is that Zodiac apparently did not like motorcycles chiefly because of their noise, and we know from TK’s biography by C.Waits that he tried to hurt motorbikers by placing neck-height wires on their trails and hated chainsaw noise (which is very similar). Zodiac’s phrase could have easily come from TK’s pen: "The S.F. Police could have caught me last night if they had searched the park properly instead of holding road races with their motorcicles seeing who could make the most noise. ".
I’ve now come to the conclusion that TK is 99% the Zodiac killer. This comes after thorough reading of TK’s papers and books, the psychological report by S.Johnson and the discussions on the internet (including this forum). There is little that I can add that has not been said before. I compared TK’s handwriting in his letters from prison and Zodiac’s letters and they look almost identical to me.Also "The Zodiac speaking" is an anagram for Theodore Kaczynski (not a perfect anagram but it contains all the letters contained in Theo Kaczynski except y). I could run a simulation with names randomly drawn from US phone books and calculate the odds of this event, which I suspect would be very very small.
Another hint is that Zodiac apparently did not like motorcycles chiefly because of their noise, and we know from TK’s biography by C.Waits that he tried to hurt motorbikers by placing neck-height wires on their trails and hated chainsaw noise (which is very similar). Zodiac’s phrase could have easily come from TK’s pen: "The S.F. Police could have caught me last night if they had searched the park properly instead of holding road races with their motorcicles seeing who could make the most noise. ".
I agree with most of what you said. Oswell also noted that both Z and Ted complained about noises from motorcycles:
Zodiac: The S.F. Police could have caught me last night if they had searched the park properly instead of holding road races with their motor cicles seeing who could make the most noise. The car drivers should have just parked their cars & sat there quietly waiting for me to come out of cover. Stine Letter, 1969.
Ted Kaczynski: For example, a variety of noise-making devices: power mowers, radios, motorcycles, etc. If the use of these devices is unrestricted, people who want peace and quiet are frustrated by the noise. Manifesto, 1995.
When I see a motorcyclist tearing up the mountain meadows … I want to kick him in the face while he is dying. GX-2003F, p. 11.
Yes the handwriting is very close, many exact matches. Look here, in particular the comps made by Marclean at the bottom. Letter after letter, there are EXACT matches between Z and TK, to the point they are almost indistinguishable. The fact that the comps didn’t get more attention led to my frustration with the case and why I have mostly been inactive the past two years. The matches in handwriting and words/phrases used are stunning and light years beyond any other POI, yet the Z community is by and large not interested.
AK Wilks, I understand your frustration that nobody is interested in TK as the Z. I think the average person is only interested in a serial killer to the extent that he may still be walking around killing people. When they find out TK is locked up for life without parole, they lose interest. Some of the LE community are also in this category. But that doesn’t explain why the Zodiac buffs aren’t interested. I’ve been attacked very ferociously after bringing him up as a suspect on a couple sites.
Well I wouldn’t say nobody is interested in the TK as Z theory. Doug Oswell, author if the excellent book The Unabomber and The Zodiac, runs a website focused on the theory, http://www.unazod.com , which has a great message board http://unazod.com/phpBB/index.php , with 40 members. For anyone really interested in the evidence showing TK as Zodiac and the Tylenol Killer, I would advise joining. And here at ZKS at any given time there are around 7 to 15 members who have some interest in TK and sometimes post on TK threads. People like AweShucks, Luke, Linda, Jem, Ricardo, Drew and others. And some people who do not have a particular focus on TK as a suspect, like Seagull, Tahoe, Quicktrader, Doranchak, up2something and others, have contributed some very good information, research and ideas on TK. People come and go, some lose interest in the Z case. Some get frustrated with the authorities lack of action on TK, for whatever reasons, and stopped being very active in research and posting. On the other hand some new members have joined who have contributed some great research and ideas on TK, like Darla Jones, Marclean, EnoOfTheWorld and a few more.
But yes, overall, TK as Z has not made major inroads into the larger Z message board world. One the one hand it baffles me, because Ted is the ONLY named suspect who is 1) a known proven serial killer 2) designed, built and used bombs 3) created complex codes that the FBI could not break 4) wrote to newspapers demanding his words appear on the front page or innocents would die 5) had a connection to Deer Lodge, MT 6) used over 50 words and phrases that the Zodiac did 7) has handwriting with 3 stroke "K" ‘s, 5 stroke "M" ‘s, checkmark "r" ‘s, and is overall virtually indistinguishable from Zodiac’s, as Marclean’s recent work shows 7) looks like the SF sketch 8) was in north CA at the time and has no timeline conflicts 9) had an interest in guns and hunting 10) drew crossed lines inside a circle at a crime scene. Etc., etc.
But on the other hand I now accept that Ted is just not the Z suspect most people are looking for. I think it is partially for the reason you identify, he is a known figure and is locked up. I think most people want to investigate an unknown person, they want a movie ending were Zodiac is revealed as …what? The boy next door? The reclusive neighbor? Somebody who knew some of the victims, or lived in Riverside and/or Vallejo? I don’t know. I give up.
I’ve told some people here privately that I got my first ( non-crime) article published, and other things are happening in my writing career that seem promising. So there are a few ongoing TK and Z FOIA projects I am going to finish, then probably announce my semi-retirement from the Zodiac hunt. Overall I have just not been successful in getting a lot of people in the Z world interested in TK, or the authorities to follow through on concrete action, so it is probably close to time to give up and concentrate on areas I have had more success in, and are less frustrating and more rewarding.
—————————————————–
Thanks to SEAGULL for passing along these documents to me. A lot of good printing from Ted here, so it is very well suited for handwriting comparisons to Zodiac. I will have all the pages posted later, and make some comparisons to Z handwriting. But right off from the start, a bird that flies near the ocean noticed that Kaczynski’s description at top of page 5, sixth line down, of wasting time "hew and haw and fiddle around" is very similar to Zodiac’s description of the police wasting time "fiddle and fart around " in LA Times letter!
So both Zodiac and Ted Kaczynski describe wasting time as "fiddle around".
That is interesting in and of itself, but even more so when considered along with the dozens and dozens of other word and phrase matches, like "around in the snow", "contrary to what police say", "deplorable", "rather messy", etc, and the handwriting matches like three stroke "K" ‘s, five stroke "M" ‘s, etc. See them all starting here: http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtop … =102&t=250
Found by up2something, from the newly released letters:
Zodiac Killer: . I wish you a happy Christmas.
Ted Kaczynski: I wish you a happy Easter.
Found by Kite, from the newly released letters:
Ted Kaczynski:Meanwhile, I wish you a happy Easter
Zodiac Killer..:Meanwhile, cancel the Count Marco column.
Kite: Written just like that, with a capital M on a sentence-opening "Meanwhile," and then a comma.
———————————–
Thanks to MARCLEAN who did some amazing work showing the incredible similarity between Zodiac handwriting and Kaczynski handwriting.
OK !!! Mr. Ak Willks !!!
I’m looking at various correspondences the Unabomber (MF ), and I will try to "build" an entire letter from ZKMF to see what the outcome.
Marcelo
AK Wilks: Wow great idea, look forward to seeing it.
I resized your work so people can see all of it in one image.
The top part of the following image, the Zodiac letter and Kaczynski application comparison, was done by AweShucks. The new excellent work at the bottom, with the Zodiac car door, Zodiac and Kaczynski word comparisons, was done by Marclean.
Marclean: I did some "play" with paint, in fact the similarity in spelling [handwriting, word formation, spacing – AK Wilks] is giant.
It is one of the POI (my) favorite
Marcelo 
Marclean: Thanks Mr Ak .
Hello .
Started today, I had taken a few days to complete.
But, I was horrified with the beginning, leaving me with it and excited to continue.
I am using the following criteria:
1- Do not force letters that are more similar.
2-Use words or whole or partial to better reliability.
share this post an image link "draft", because in fact, it’s worth it (in my opinion).
I repeat.
It is frightening resemblance, so I think it’s worth me finish this
It is also frightening that do not have the authorities have done DNA testing with Kazinski.
Marcelo
"Base Letter" Una . : 
"Zodiac Letter 
"The construction Draft Z-Una"
ps:I will take a few weeks, for three reasons.
Try to be precise, something about the Z I have done and lack of time.
But I will definitely finish this. 
Marclean: Hello. 
I figured it would take longer, but I managed, after get the hang of doing this in a few hours.
It is not accurate, but I did the best I could.
below are links of the letters "matrix" Ted K. of which "took" the "stuff" to construct the similar letter to ZMF. (images below mentioned links)
happiness to all.
Marcelo
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/750×970/documents/0812081unabomber1.gif
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/750×970/documents/0812081unabomber2.gif
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/750×970/documents/0812081unabomber3.gif
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxTop Line: ZODIAC
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxBottom Line: TED KACZYNSKI
Marclean: As always, I made this little game with the letters in "caps Lk" letters" TK.
(I had thought of that when I made the anagram, but only now had time)
I reiterate, the resemblance is giant with ZMF is huge.
Marcelo
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/750×970/documents/0812081unabomber1.gif
Consider also these word and phrase matches:
A COMPARISON OF SHARED WORD USAGE, PHRASES AND STYLES BY THE ZODIAC AND KACZYNSKI (MOSTLY BY DOUG OSWELL AND A FEW BY AK WILKS AND OTHERS)
Z = Zodiac K = Kaczynski/Unabomber
Z = I hope you enjoy your selves when I have my Blast. Jolly Roger Card.
K = For these reasons, I want to get my revenge in one big blast. GX18-2003F, p. 11.
Z = At the moment the children are safe from the bomb because it is so massive to dig in & the triger mech requires much work to get it adjusted just right. Belli Letter, 1969.
K = Its no fun having to spend all your evenings and weekends preparing dangerous mixtures, filing trigger mechanisms out of scraps of metal …. New York Times Letter, 1995.
Z = I gave the cops som bussy work to do to keep them happy. Seven-Page Letter, 1969.
K = This seems to us a thoroughly contemptible way for the human race to end up, and we doubt that many people would find fulfilling lives in such pointless busy-work. Unabomber Manifesto, 1995.
Z = This is the murderer of the 2 teenagers last Christmass at Lake Herman & the girl on the 4th of July near the golf course in Vallejo. To prove I killed them I shall state some facts which only I & the police know. Three-Part Cipher, 1969.
K = To prove that we are the ones who planted the bomb at U. Of Cal. last May we will mention a few details that could be known only to us and the FBI who investigated the incident. S.F. Examiner Letter, 1985.
Z = The police shall never catch me, because I have been too clever for them. Seven-Page letter, 1969.
K = And it doesn’t appear that the FBI is going to catch us any time soon. New York Times letter, 1995.
Z = 2 cops pulled a goof. Seven-Page letter, 1969.
K = The FBI is a joke. New York Times letter, 1995.
Z = As of yet I have left no fingerprints behind me contrary to what the police say. Seven-Page Letter, 1969.
K = Contrary to what the FBI has suggested, our bombing at the California Forestry Association was in no way inspired by the Oklahoma City bombing. New York Times Letter, 1995.
Z = This is the murderer of the 2 teenagers last Christmass … July 31, 1969 Letter (Chronicle).
This is the Zodiac speaking. Numerous correspondences, 1969 through 1971.
K = This is a message from the terrorist group FC. New York Times Letter, April 24, 1995.
This is a message from FC. Tom Tyler Letter, June 30, 1995.
Z = I promised to punish them if they did not comply, by anilating a full School Buss. But now school is out for the summer, so I punished them in another way. Mt. Diablo Letter, 1970.
K = The people who are pushing all this growth and progress garbage deserve to be severely punished. New York Times Letter, 1995.
Z = By the way it could be rather messy if you try to bluff me. Seven-Page Letter, 1969.
K = A special case of Theorem (b) was proved (in effect) in [6, proof of Theorem 6] by means of a rather messy lemma. T.J. Kaczynski. Boundary Functions and Sets of Curvilinear Convergence for Continuous Functions. Transactions of the American Mathematical Society, Vol. 141 (Jul., 1969), 107-125, p. 124.
Z = [Called a violent movie] "deplorable".
K = [Called OKC bombing] "deplorable".
The ones above are some that I considered most compelling and a few of my own. The entire list and analysis by Doug Oswell is excellent and can be seen here:
http://www.unazod.com/style.html
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