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"BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC"

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morf13
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morf13, Subject: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:21 pm

Here it is finally, THE BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC letter possibly from Z ( actually more like a drawing)

The FBI did not give me any other facts, dates, or details regarding this letter. Opinions???

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:59 pm

For me, the above letter and drawing are similar to this:

However, whether it is a match, I do not know…



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:31 pm



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:43 pm

The word KNIFE in both looks similar. In my opinion, the K on the car door is more like Z’s real, undisguised handwriting, and the bleeding knife may be his after he disguised it.



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:40 pm

Does anyone know:

When was this letter sent? and to whom? and were was it poststamped?

And was that the only thing sent? or was there like a real letter as well?



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:47 pm

POSTMARKED 12/16/69 FAIRFIELD CA

SENT TO SF EXAMINER

FIRST PAGE IS HERE:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … r-t455.htm



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:48 pm

Morf –

I take it they did not send you a copy of the envelope?

I did include the envelope in my request so if I get it I will post it.



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:50 pm

Does anyone know:

When was this letter sent? and to whom? and were was it poststamped?

And was that the only thing sent? or was there like a real letter as well?

Ok I´ll answer myself :)

http://zodiackillertruth.com/bknife.htm

Bleeding Knife

Below is a transcription of a letter written by the Zodiac killer. Grammatical and spelling errors are included as written.

Date: Postmarked December 16, 1969

Comments: Sent to San Francisco Examiner. Postmarked Fairfield, CA.

——————————————————————————–

A copy or transcription of this letter in its entirety is unavailable to the public. Here is what we do know about this missive:

The letter had two pages. The first page began:

"This is the Zodiac speaking I just want to tell you this state is in trouble"
The letter contained the following phrases (spelling):

for the goverment
and

don’t foreget
The second page contained a drawing of a knife and the words:

"The Bleeding Knife of Zodiac"
Investigators from the F.B.I. concluded in a memo that this letter "may contain some distortion" and was "not written as freely" as other "threatening letters." The memo goes on to say that characteristics indicate this letter "may have been prepared by writer other threatening letters this matter."



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:55 pm

POSTMARKED 12/16/69 FAIRFIELD CA

SENT TO SF EXAMINER

FIRST PAGE IS HERE:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … r-t455.htm



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:58 pm

Morf –

I take it they did not send you a copy of the envelope?

I did include the envelope in my request so if I get it I will post it.

Sorry, forgot to post this as i was pretty excited.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:06 pm

Interesting!

There may have been a mix up somewhere. The FBI reports that the "state is in trouble" page one and "bleeding knife" page two were postmarked 12/16/69 FAIRFIELD CA.

This Sacramento Bee paste up is reported as for something else.

That is reported as Q 39, which was sent with the CANCER card!

Q 36 is the envelope for this "state" + "bleeding" letter! I did request that, hopefully I will get it.

The 1981 possible Zodiac letter in the Atlanta Child Murders would also use a newspaper card like this to send a message in.



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:54 pm

Morf –

I take it they did not send you a copy of the envelope?

I did include the envelope in my request so if I get it I will post it.

Sorry, forgot to post this as i was pretty excited.

That envelope is from the past-up Dec 10th letter, look at the poststamp, and it is sent from Sacramento.

bruce3, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:07 pm

That was the business envelope 12/10/69 Dave Peterson got from a Sac detective.as pictured in my book.It contained the torn page from the astrology magazine.

bruce3, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:38 pm

Some of the letters and words like THE match up more closely with ’67 Notes.I hope some will do some side by sides with both productions.



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:01 pm

The word KNIFE in both looks similar. In my opinion, the K on the car door is more like Z’s real, undisguised handwriting, and the bleeding knife may be his after he disguised it.

Concerning the Lake Berryess murder:

As far as I know, the police did NOT share the "by knife" writing on the car door, they kept that a secret from the public.
SO if that is the case, and I sure do belive that it is, then I would say that the VERY close match between "by knife" on the car door written Sep 27, 1969 and the word "knife" written in the possible Zodiac letter postmarked Dec 16, 1969, ca 3 months later, indicate that the "Bleeding knife of Zodiac" indeed could be a true Zodiac letter.

I have reseached to try find any newsreports that mention the lake Berryessa murder car door writing; "By knife" and have not found any in 1969.
Actually I have not been able to find ANY mentioning of the "by knife " until nenwsreports in recent years.

Does anyone know when the info that Zodiac wrote "by knife" on the car door sep 27, 1969, was first released to the public?

In this picture to the right, you can see that LE has concealed the writing "by knife".

bruce3, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:05 pm

Looks more like certain letters and words like "THE"Bleeding knife.in the ’67 Notes.

Sandra wrote of their "Hungry Knife."See thezodiacmansonconnection.com under Family Page.Click on Sandra Good’s two notes.Click for CM using Z’s symbol on his stamp in the Family Page!Actually iy will be seen CM used this symbol several times on some samples we posted.
Some have said he never used this symbol.They don’t know CM.He had said on TV ‘ a man must have a symbol.’Whatever CM knew and taught so did BD his closest friend.

Perhaps Bleeding knife came from some novel or film or whatever.



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:36 pm

The word KNIFE in both looks similar. In my opinion, the K on the car door is more like Z’s real, undisguised handwriting, and the bleeding knife may be his after he disguised it.

Concerning the Lake Berryess murder:

As far as I know, the police did NOT share the "by knife" writing on the car door, they kept that a secret from the public.
SO if that is the case, and I sure do belive that it is, then I would say that the VERY close match between "by knife" on the car door written Sep 27, 1969 and the word "knife" written in the possible Zodiac letter postmarked Dec 16, 1969, ca 3 months later, indicate that the "Bleeding knife of Zodiac" indeed could be a true Zodiac letter.

I have reseached to try find any newsreports that mention the lake Berryessa murder car door writing; "By knife" and have not found any in 1969.
Actually I have not been able to find ANY mentioning of the "by knife " until nenwsreports in recent years.

Does anyone know when the info that Zodiac wrote "by knife" on the car door sep 27, 1969, was first released to the public?

In this picture to the right, you can see that LE has concealed the writing "by knife".

Additional reseach on this matter:



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:43 pm

Excellent work TF.

You might want to post this on ZKF.

Good job. I don’t know when the "by knife" was released. But it was concealed on that picture.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:10 pm

While I think it is OUTSTANDING you were able to get this, I just don’t see any similarities.

I don’t know if someone would need to know Zodiac wrote "by knife" in order to know he used a knife.

entropy, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:41 pm

Terrific work in getting these letters, morf. Persistence sometimes pays off.

My first thought on these letters is that the handwriting is marginal and there seems to be a certain hard-to-define immaturity in these letters that is missing from any confirmed Zodiac communications. Were BOTH of these letters postmarked from Fairfield, CA? If so, I think it is likely they can be attributed to the same writer as the other Fairfield letters, which appear to be the work of one dedicated hoaxster, IMHO.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … y-t118.htm

If anyone can find my original post about the Fairfield letters, it would be much appreciated.

ither way, it’s great to have a catalogue of ALL of these unconfirmed letters to compare. Nice work…



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:43 pm

I see some similarities, but how much of it is due to disguised writing? I do think it is important to note that FBI experts didnt label this one way or the other as Z-writing, or a fake. SO I think none of us here are really going to be able to determine it. Still makes for good discussion



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:45 pm

Terrific work in getting these letters, morf. Persistence sometimes pays off.

My first thought on these letters is that the handwriting is marginal and there seems to be a certain hard-to-define immaturity in these letters that is missing from any confirmed Zodiac communications. Were BOTH of these letters postmarked from Fairfield, CA? If so, I think it is likely they can be attributed to the same writer as the other Fairfield letters, which appear to be the work of one dedicated hoaxster, IMHO.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … y-t118.htm

If anyone can find my original post about the Fairfield letters, it would be much appreciated.

ither way, it’s great to have a catalogue of ALL of these unconfirmed letters to compare. Nice work…

Great words Entropy! IMMATURITY is a good way to describe the writing, and especially the drawing of the knife, it looks like a 7 year old drew it, but then again, so did the BATES letters.



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:56 pm

I have heard "whispers" that this letter has been declared a fraud,and that Tom V had this material long time ago. I find that hard to believe as I have never seen this anyplace before, anywhere on the net, and I have never heard anybody that claimed to have seen it. Even on some of the other Z forums, there has been talk of this letter, but not of the images.

I challenge anybody that claims to know for sure that this letter was proven to be fake, to present evidence or documentation showing that. I just dont think it is the case. The letter may be a fake, who knows, but for people that claim to have details, please share.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:09 am

I have heard "whispers" that this letter has been declared a fraud,and that Tom V had this material long time ago. I find that hard to believe as I have never seen this anyplace before, anywhere on the net, and I have never heard anybody that claimed to have seen it. Even on some of the other Z forums, there has been talk of this letter, but not of the images.

I challenge anybody that claims to know for sure that this letter was proven to be fake, to present evidence or documentation showing that. I just dont think it is the case. The letter may be a fake, who knows, but for people that claim to have details, please share.

The 2002 letters that are widely considered fakes are still up at Tom’s site so I don’t know why these wouldn’t be up as well. In any case wouldn’t have Mike B. jumped right on this if this letter had already been debunked? Also Chris Y. on zodiackillertruth says "A copy or transcription of this letter in its entirety is unavailable to the public"

I agree that if anyone knows of a reason that we should consider this a proven fake they need to quit "whispering" and speak up!



tracers, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:10 am

Entropy, where was your original post about the Fairfield letters posted, was it here, at Tom’s current board or one of his archived boards or elsewhere?

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:48 am

Just a note… the small "d" in cursive is interesting…

entropy, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:18 am

Hi T,

I thought the post about the Fairfield letters was here but discovered it was actually on the now defunct Bystander board and is not retrievable. It was basically just an observation that there are a number of unconfirmed "Zodiac letters" which were postmarked from Fairfield, CA and the handwriting and other qualities of these letters resemble each other much more than Zodiac’s. This thread shows two of them but I believe there was another, possibly from 12/69, which may or may not be the "This State Is In Trouble" letter which morf just dug up.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … y-t118.htm

This would be better discussed in the thread for that letter but the "This State…" letter looks very much like the other Fairfield letters and, it would seem, likely came from the same person as the others. That person could be Zodiac but I think it is far more likely that it was a single dedicated Zodiac hoaxster. The FBI, of course, is obligated to investigate any letter purporting to be from Zodiac so the inclusion of these letters in their files in no way speaks to the legitimacy of the letters.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:55 am

I see considerable similarities in the F’s, regarding the letter and the car door. Same kind of swoop.



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:28 am

Excellent work TF.

You might want to post this on ZKF.

Good job. I don’t know when the "by knife" was released. But it was concealed on that picture.

Thanks AkWilks, and I will post this over at ZKF at som point.
Unless somone else do it, please feel free to post my findings on whatever forum you want.



Zamantha, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:10 pm

Curious: Is this the actual size of the Bleeding Knife Letter/Card? Or was it smaller? Just pondering….



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:20 pm

Here it is finally, THE BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC letter possibly from Z ( actually more like a drawing)

The FBI did not give me any other facts, dates, or details regarding this letter. Opinions???

AK – Yeah, looks like it could be index card size.



Zamantha, Subject: BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:49 pm

Zo, index size you think? Index Card. That’s what Zam thinks. That’s why I was tryin to figure out the size, or what it might of been written on?



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:53 pm




I very much doubt the Gaul – Sharp letter was from the real SF Zodiac, but it does share a "ha ha" in common with this 12/16/69 letter (2 vs. 3, though, and both may have been inspired by Jack the Ripper), and there is also a slight similarity in the "dripping" effect on the Gaul – Sharp letter and the "Bleeding Knife of Zodiac" dripping. Both seem to be evoking the same image anyway, blood dripping off a knife. And both may have been inspired by this Jack the Ripper letter, which also has a knife dripping blood at the top of the letter, and a "Ha Ha" in the middle.

Gaul – Sharp murder was 11/21/69.



yarbchris, Subject: Nice… Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:12 pm

Morf,

Just wanted to say that I’ve often heard about this letter. It is nice to finally see it, for whatever value it may have. Good work and thanks!



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:22 pm

Morf,

Just wanted to say that I’ve often heard about this letter. It is nice to finally see it, for whatever value it may have. Good work and thanks!

Thanks Chris. It may or may not prove useful somehow, but at the very least it is something new to discuss. Feel free to use it on your site, maybe it will help you debunk DK with it… we can only hope.. :D

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:38 pm

Morf,

Just wanted to say that I’ve often heard about this letter. It is nice to finally see it, for whatever value it may have. Good work and thanks!

Thanks Chris. It may or may not prove useful somehow, but at the very least it is something new to discuss. Feel free to use it on your site, maybe it will help you debunk DK with it… we can only hope.. :D

Well, Nanette is already working on it, so I have a feeling it’ll come in handy in the debunking :D



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:52 pm

Morf,

Just wanted to say that I’ve often heard about this letter. It is nice to finally see it, for whatever value it may have. Good work and thanks!

Thanks Chris. It may or may not prove useful somehow, but at the very least it is something new to discuss. Feel free to use it on your site, maybe it will help you debunk DK with it… we can only hope.. :D

Well, Nanette is already working on it, so I have a feeling it’ll come in handy in the debunking :D

Oh no.

bruce3, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:56 pm

Just wait till MB has his say and say and say and…LOL

bruce3, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:58 pm

One could point out the ‘3 drops’ from the ‘bleeding’ pen card-to the drops -6 in number- from the knife.Man was created on the 6th day so 6 is his number.6 is one short of perfection which is 7. Seven in French is sept.You do have a sept. on the Ghia.Just observing…



zodio, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:00 pm

This one I also believe is fake.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:43 pm

Morf,

Just wanted to say that I’ve often heard about this letter. It is nice to finally see it, for whatever value it may have. Good work and thanks!

Thanks Chris. It may or may not prove useful somehow, but at the very least it is something new to discuss. Feel free to use it on your site, maybe it will help you debunk DK with it… we can only hope.. :D

Well, Nanette is already working on it, so I have a feeling it’ll come in handy in the debunking :D

Oh no.

From Nane…oops, I mean DENNIS’ board:

09/01/10 at 09:00 PM #5
Interesting find. I wonder how many letters are out there floating around…..that were either sent by JT or by copycats all together? This must have been a hectic time… But, I am confused as to why it would be labeled to S.F., but addressed to Fairfield. This is kind of like the suicide note to Mary from the Red Lipstick Killings in Riverside. It surfaces, but no one knows truly whether or not to attribute it to the same person. It is obvious that someone is attempting to disguise their handwriting because identical letters do not hold a natural variation, or they do not look like each other as far as the overall gestalt. I have a class this evening, but I will take a stab at the writing later….

http://denniskaufman.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=4868799

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:18 pm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c … OETI71.DTL

Sooo, the "overwriting" and the FBI’s indication of a lack of fluidity would most likely mean "no match" here…



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:06 pm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/03/03/MNG37OETI71.DTL

Sooo, the "overwriting" and the FBI’s indication of a lack of fluidity would most likely mean "no match" here…

He said "A tip-off to copied or disguised handwriting is a lack of "fluency,"

Makes sense to me, if Z did send this letter, he may very well have tried to disguise it.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:35 pm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/03/03/MNG37OETI71.DTL

Sooo, the "overwriting" and the FBI’s indication of a lack of fluidity would most likely mean "no match" here…

He said "A tip-off to copied or disguised handwriting is a lack of "fluency,"

Makes sense to me, if Z did send this letter, he may very well have tried to disguise it.

Why try to disguise handwriting if you’re going to cover the letter with crosshair symbols? It doesn’t make sense.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:42 pm

I would continue my analysis here, except I have been told that people do not like the conclusion I have come to that the letters are not from Z, so I will just say nothing more, I guess.

My conclusion has nothing to do with all of the hard work that people went to to get the letters. I am sure that there are more letters and other Z-related things out there as well, that are either being held back by LE or buried in FBI files.

I think that people need to separate the conclusions that may be drawn about the authenticity of a piece of Z-related data (analysis/logic), from the (emotional) appreciation we all have of the work that goes in to doing a FOIA request, and actually "extracting" the information from the FBI or other large governmental agencies.



Zamantha, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:56 pm

I would continue my analysis here, except I have been told that people do not like the conclusion I have come to that the letters are not from Z, so I will just say nothing more, I guess.

My conclusion has nothing to do with all of the hard work that people went to to get the letters. I am sure that there are more letters and other Z-related things out there as well, that are either being held back by LE or buried in FBI files.

I think that people need to separate the conclusions that may be drawn about the authenticity of a piece of Z-related data (analysis/logic), from the (emotional) appreciation we all have of the work that goes in to doing a FOIA request, and actually "extracting" the information from the FBI or other large governmental agencies.

Zag, you are more then welcome to post the pros an cons of this letter. That is what we are all trying to do. Some of this Z stuff is confusing, and I think we all get emotional about it. I posted I thought it was a Z type thing. But honestly, I do not know…… wish I did…. I wish the FBI did. We are all Z obsessed, and getting something new to look at or ponder is HUGH to some of the posters. This is like the free speech forum, so we share our reasons of why or why not we think it is or isn’t. I don’t think anyone told you not to say anything? And I think we are all grateful to this site, Tom’s n Mikes take give us new Z information. SO, carry on….
Zincerely, Zam*



tracers, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:04 am

Weird, I have posted that I don’t think the letters are from Zodiac, and no one has told me to stop saying what I think. Has anyone else who doesn’t see this and the other page as genuine Zodiac writing been told to not post their opinions anymore? If so, let us know.



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:17 am

When new things like this letter get found or brought into the spotlight for Zodiac discussion, they should be shared among various Zodiac forums, at least in my opinion. Yet we see posts like this on another Zodiac forum:

"I was hoping this problem would go away, but it’s been several months and I don’t see an end in sight. So, we have a new rule:
DO NOT REPOST CONTENT THAT ORIGINATES AT THIS DISCUSSION FORUM TO OTHER SITES.
We are seeing members of this forum put the work in to dig up new and interesting pieces of info, and as soon as it is posted here for discussion, other members repost it for discussion elsewhere.
If you come up with something new, by all means, also include it on your personal site. But to rival Zodiac sites? Please. If other forums need new stuff to discuss, they can get off their asses and put in the work like we do.
I’d hate to have to ban someone for violating this rule, but I will.
It’s pretty simple, really: What originates here gets discussed here
."

This post was emailed to me, and I got a chuckle. ‘Rival Zodiac sites’?? Are you serious? This is the type of stuff that the police did back in the late 60’s when Z was still doing his thing. I dont know about anybody else, but my goal is to see this case solved. If everybody felt this way, they would want to share ideas and info. Whatever, I guess I just have to consider the source in this situation, and then it doesnt surprise me. We share ideas and info, and we dont even charge you $$$, LOL. If anyone here sees anything they want to share with other forums, please do, we want to get the truth out there, and maybe one day, see the case solved.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:24 am

Morf, that post was made quite a couple months ago, and I couldn’t agree with you more. If anything, information needs to be shared MORE! Why should it matter where it comes from? I’d think if you really cared about this mystery being solved as opposed to WHO solves it, you’d be all about information sharing. It’s sad and quite telling. But should anything less be expected when the source of this is the only one who is (admittedly) paying his bills with the donations of his members? He’s the only one doing that (and actually, he’s the only one who actively solicits donations period). None of the "rival" sites try to make money off this case.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:36 am

I got a chuckle myself………..out of this part.
"I’d hate to have to ban someone for violating this rule, but I will."
I can just hear him saying……………dont make me do it!!!
That is lame………….its his website…………if he really hates to do something my guess is he wont do it.
Jus keep up the good work Morf and lett the haters hate………….thats what they do best.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:13 pm

He wouldn’t hate it, he already got his ten bucks :)



Ricardo, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:35 pm

I am interested in this message about “the bleeding knife of Zodiac” whether or not it was from the Zodiac.

Whoever drew this picture had knowledge of a bleeding knife which does seem to be a reference to Jack the Ripper.

The term “bleeding knife” refers to a particular type of knife also known as a lancet. Depending upon the context, it could be used by a doctor or by a butcher.

Maybe someone can help to find a photo of a bleeding knife in which the curvature of the blade specifically matches the drawing of “the bleeding knife of Zodiac”.



zodio, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:44 pm

Be carefull, I know of some who would say it confirms that it proves Z, Black Dahlia, Lipstick, I45, etc. killers were the same man.
And this ‘rippers’ name was Jack too ! :D



tracers, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:34 pm

When new things like this letter get found or brought into the spotlight for Zodiac discussion, they should be shared among various Zodiac forums, at least in my opinion. Yet we see posts like this on another Zodiac forum:

"I was hoping this problem would go away, but it’s been several months and I don’t see an end in sight. So, we have a new rule:
DO NOT REPOST CONTENT THAT ORIGINATES AT THIS DISCUSSION FORUM TO OTHER SITES.
We are seeing members of this forum put the work in to dig up new and interesting pieces of info, and as soon as it is posted here for discussion, other members repost it for discussion elsewhere.
If you come up with something new, by all means, also include it on your personal site. But to rival Zodiac sites? Please. If other forums need new stuff to discuss, they can get off their asses and put in the work like we do.
I’d hate to have to ban someone for violating this rule, but I will.
It’s pretty simple, really: What originates here gets discussed here
."

This post was emailed to me, and I got a chuckle. ‘Rival Zodiac sites’?? Are you serious? This is the type of stuff that the police did back in the late 60’s when Z was still doing his thing. I dont know about anybody else, but my goal is to see this case solved. If everybody felt this way, they would want to share ideas and info. Whatever, I guess I just have to consider the source in this situation, and then it doesnt surprise me. We share ideas and info, and we dont even charge you $$$, LOL. If anyone here sees anything they want to share with other forums, please do, we want to get the truth out there, and maybe one day, see the case solved.

an FYI: I asked Tom to clarify his policy about this, and he has. Naturally, people can repost their own information and such at any board they choose; he simply meant you can’t repost what someone else posted without getting their permission first.

I had emailed him about this on july 1, 2010, because I was not sure what he meant. Here are the emails, with names and my email addy removed.

—–Original Message—–
From: tomvoigt@zodiackiller.com
To:
Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 12:10 pm
Subject: Re: reposting content

Sure, if someone posts something new at my site and they also want to post it elsewhere, that’s fine. What I am trying to avoid is crap like "xxxxxxxxx" taking something new "yyyyyyy" posted at my site and reposting it at morf and bitterfield’s sites. if "yyyyyyy" wants to post it there, he can do it himself. if discussing the thread at my site isn’t good enough for "xxxxxxxxx" , tough. i am not interested in feeding the trolls.

On Thu 01/07/10 1:38 PM , Tracers sent:

ok thanks–another question you may want to clarify about reposting: if someone posts something at your site, since they posted it, can they then repost it at other sites? are you saying people can’t repost their own stuff, or that people can’t repost stuff from other people? i don’t have any exciting new info to post, but bet some people who do find and post things may be wondering if you are saying once they post something to your board, they can’t post it elsewhere–you did say people can post things at their own sites, but what if people don’t have their own sites? if they find the info, can they repost it elsewhere? lol–sorry if i sound anal–just not sure what you meant.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:40 pm

I am interested in this message about “the bleeding knife of Zodiac” whether or not it was from the Zodiac.

Whoever drew this picture had knowledge of a bleeding knife which does seem to be a reference to Jack the Ripper.

The term “bleeding knife” refers to a particular type of knife also known as a lancet. Depending upon the context, it could be used by a doctor or by a butcher.

Maybe someone can help to find a photo of a bleeding knife in which the curvature of the blade specifically matches the drawing of “the bleeding knife of Zodiac”.



, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:09 pm

I am interested in this message about “the bleeding knife of Zodiac” whether or not it was from the Zodiac.

Whoever drew this picture had knowledge of a bleeding knife which does seem to be a reference to Jack the Ripper.

The term “bleeding knife” refers to a particular type of knife also known as a lancet. Depending upon the context, it could be used by a doctor or by a butcher.

Maybe someone can help to find a photo of a bleeding knife in which the curvature of the blade specifically matches the drawing of “the bleeding knife of Zodiac”.

I dont know much about lancets but the picture made me think of a fillet or skinning knife probaly because I like to fish and I do a little hunting. Also I am of the opinion that z was an outdoorsman.
If your think z might have been a doctor you might think of a lancet first or if you think maybe he was a rich man with to much time on his hands you might think of some kind of sword.
Its kind of hard to tell by the drawing what the artist (I use this term loosely :)) was trying to represent. I do wonder if he was trying to show a broken tip on the end of the knife and wouldnt that be interesting.
But mostly I just see some very bad artwork.
Here are a few pics I found for what they are worth. I dont think any of them precisely match the drawing. I didnt find any lancets.

Labeled as a boning knife the backwards curve is to give the user more cutting surface to work with……..excellent for cutting down to the bone and then along the bone seperating the bone from the flesh also know as filleting.

Same concept

Labeled as a Celtic knife……….I would have called it a short sword but I am not much into this kind of thing……..I think the Japenese also used a backwards curved knife or sword? And prob other cultures as well.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:11 pm

I’m just going to add this, then drop the subject, since it’s all way off topic and not worth arguing about…

If the idea of all of these message boards and websites is to try and solve this case, then all of the information should be made available to everyone, period. It shouldn’t matter who posted it or where it was posted. If information isn’t shared, it’s a detriment to everyone. Now, that said, Tom posted this today:

I don’t really care if stuff that originates here gets reposted elsewhere, so long as the original poster is credited and users don’t abandon discussion here for another website.

That’s a little different than what was in his email and post 2-1/2 months ago. However, I agree with the sentiment of crediting someone who finds a piece of information or comes up with an idea. I’ve always credited anything I’ve used elsewhere (as I did with the "State" letter and Morf, for example) and I think everyone else should too.

Okay, back to the discussion…



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:23 pm

Looks like the "Celtic" knife, also a knife called the Khukri, used by the Gurkha.



, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:27 pm

AK
If are using the drawing as an exact representation I will go with the "Celtic" knife as well.
This in my mind would tend to point towards a well off "playboy" as these kinds of ancient weapons (even the good quality replicas) are not cheap.
Altho I do know a few persons who have one or two swords, maces and the like on the wall and they are not what most of us would call rich.
However the drawing is so bad it makes me wonder how close it is to what he had in mind.
BTW I had to look up the Gurkah……interesting…..But I had thought they where going to be a lost tribe of Klingons :lol:

What do you (or anyone) make of the tip? I mean how could he or she (just to be fair) screw it up that bad?
Does anyone think it is possible that the artist was trying to show a broken tip?
Of course I am referencing the Bates confession letter where the author claimed the knife broke………most seem to assume a clean break but it did not have to be.
I know the murder weapon was never found but was the broken knife confirmed during the autopsy?

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:47 pm

What do you (or anyone) make of the tip? I mean how could he or she (just to be fair) screw it up that bad?
Does anyone think it is possible that the artist was trying to show a broken tip?
Of course I am referencing the Bates confession letter where the author claimed the knife broke………most seem to assume a clean break but it did not have to be.
I know the murder weapon was never found but was the broken knife confirmed during the autopsy?

I had asked Ed Neil about this, and he told me that there wasn’t any piece of broken knife in Cheri Jo Bates’ body. When the confession writer said the knife broke, it likely meant that the handle of the knife broke or the knife blade broke away from the handle. Of course, neither of these things can be proven without finding the knife, the likelihood of which is very slim.

I know Dennis likes to push his broken-tipped knife, but there’s no evidence to suggest the tip of the knife broke off.

I think whoever did this drawing just did a really bad job of drawing a knife blade.



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:49 pm

I’m thinking the knife was a switchblade-type weapon, and the locking mechanism broke from all that ferocious stabbing and slashing.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:16 pm

Remember, as well…the writer says the knife broke before he finally killed her with it, so whatever he meant by "broke", it still was very usable.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:05 pm

The letter says " I PLUNGED THE KNIFE INTO HER AND IT BROKE"
So according to the author he stabbed her and it broke.
I do not buy that the handle broke or the blade came loose or the locking mechanism broke those parts are the strongest.
Not that it is impossible but if any of that happened then it was one cheap knife.
This says to me the blade prob chipped a little………most likely the point.
When you sharpen a knife you are basicaly whittling away at it so the sharp edge and the point are the weakest parts.
They should have found something in the autopsy………of course they did not have the letter at the time so it is possible
the piece was so small they missed it.



Zamantha, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:00 am

So IF this was the case, what Jon just wrote: This says to me the blade prob chipped a little………most likely the point.

Then that’s what the pic. of the bleeding Knife Letter looks like. Looks like some of the tip broke off.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:35 am

I think that is one possible way to look at it Zam.
But the drawing is so bad…….its hard to say for sure.
I also wonder why it is so badly drawn……high on drugs? nervous? in a car?
You look at the "This state is in trouble" letter and it looks pretty well done.
But then the drawing looks like crap.
Did he do it this way on purpose?
Did he get excited while drawing the knife……..possibly have a memory so strong it was almost like a flashback?
:scratch:
I got lots of ?’s and no answers.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:06 pm

I have heard "whispers" that this letter has been declared a fraud,and that Tom V had this material long time ago. I find that hard to believe as I have never seen this anyplace before, anywhere on the net, and I have never heard anybody that claimed to have seen it. Even on some of the other Z forums, there has been talk of this letter, but not of the images.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/FBIZodiac4.pdf

(pp. 41 & 42 for starters, also 124)

It appears he did have these, and may just have not released everything he had to "the public at large"…

Now, as far as it having "officially" been declared a fraud; I have not found anything yet…

Also, you may have been the first one to get the actual letter, as we don’t know for sure if he is releasing everything he has…

In any case, you are the first one to be generous with it, which means more to everyone…



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:31 pm

That is just the FBI publicly released Zodiac file, also available at the FBI website. It does NOT contain the actual letters.

If Tom actually has the letters, he should post them and the envelope, which I am still waiting for.

Tom claims he had this a decade ago, posted it, then decided it was fake and took it down. If true, let him post the envelope.

Tom has the May 1978 possible Zodiac letter mentioning the Manson Family, which has never been authenticated and most researchers think it fake, yet Tom has it up at his site. Odd why he would decide to remove the Fairfield letters, when the FBI analysis says they "probably" are real.

At this site, it will not be Morf, me, Zam, Auth or Solar decding what is real and what is fake. Suspected and possible Zodiac letters and envelopes will be posted for all to see, and sent to all major sites and researchers (as I sent this to Tom, Mike B, Chris Y, Ricardo, Doug Oswell and Roland), so that people can view them, study them, discuss, debate and decide for themselves.



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:19 pm

That is just the FBI publicly released Zodiac file, also available at the FBI website. It does NOT contain the actual letters.

If Tom actually has the letters, he should post them and the envelope, which I am still waiting for.

Tom claims he had this a decade ago, posted it, then decided it was fake and took it down. If true, let him post the envelope.

Tom has the May 1978 possible Zodiac letter mentioning the Manson Family, which has never been authenticated and most researchers think it fake, yet Tom has it up at his site. Odd why he would decide to remove the Fairfield letters, when the FBI analysis says they "probably" are real.

At this site, it will not be Morf, me, Zam, Auth or Solar decding what is real and what is fake. Suspected and possible Zodiac letters and envelopes will be posted for all to see, and sent to all major sites and researchers (as I sent this to Tom, Mike B, Chris Y, Ricardo, Doug Oswell and Roland), so that people can view them, study them, discuss, debate and decide for themselves.

I agree. Not gonna get into a contest with Tom about what he had or didnt have 10 or 12 years ago. I just know from past run-ins with him, he has told me things that simply are not true. One thing in particular he emailed me about, and I was suspicious. When I checked with a Detective about it, the Detective confirmed that my suspicions were correct, and Tom had not given me the correct info. Based on that, and other things, I simply choose to believe that he is being less than honest, and am quite surprised that "old-timers" at his site had never seen that letter, nor did it wind up on the net. People like Butterfield, Ed Neil, Sandy Betts, etc that have been researching Z for years never saw it, so I think that is further evidence.

With that being said, I do applaud Tom for bringing atention to, and supplying the bulk of, most of the Z materials around. My only suggestion is, Just be honest.

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : April 18, 2013 6:49 am
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
Member Moderator
 



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:20 pm

That is just the FBI publicly released Zodiac file, also available at the FBI website. It does NOT contain the actual letters.

If Tom actually has the letters, he should post them and the envelope, which I am still waiting for.

Tom claims he had this a decade ago, posted it, then decided it was fake and took it down. If true, let him post the envelope.

Tom has the May 1978 possible Zodiac letter mentioning the Manson Family, which has never been authenticated and most researchers think it fake, yet Tom has it up at his site. Odd why he would decide to remove the Fairfield letters, when the FBI analysis says they "probably" are real.

At this site, it will not be Morf, me, Zam, Auth or Solar decding what is real and what is fake. Suspected and possible Zodiac letters and envelopes will be posted for all to see, and sent to all major sites and researchers (as I sent this to Tom, Mike B, Chris Y, Ricardo, Doug Oswell and Roland), so that people can view them, study them, discuss, debate and decide for themselves.

Well said. We are working to get stuff and share it with everyone at all sites. We arent telling them what to do with it or what to think. If you think its fake, that’s great. If you think its real, thats cool too.

bruce3, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:45 pm

The doc experts could never come to a conclusion on the May ’78 KHJ Channel Nine letter.It was hidden from view as well as the envelope for many years until a photographer found it.The LAPD Archivst would not allow him access to it to photograph it,including the envelope,etc.It was very tense until Parks allowed him to take the photos.

He went to then Chief Parks and got permission.I worked with him getting a copy which took months.It was very,very frustrating going back and forth with him on getting those photographs,which I finally got during Christmas one year-nice gift! I was the first to publish the envelope as shown on my site.

I have gone through every Z letter and compared them to every detail on the envelope and the letter itself.Even the minutest details are in that letter, which amazed me.This includes content or similar Z- like statements,etc.
Some of my analysis is on my site.I still need to post the rest of my study,which took months.I used ultraviolet light with extreme magnification and found quite a lot of matches to known Z missives.

All of the carping has come from those who have only done a lazy cursory hatchet job.I say spend the time -lots of it -before one goes off half cocked.The CM reference turns them off I know.

Kelleher and others do believe it is probably a Z missive.I do.Keep in mind it had been four years since his last communication.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:00 pm

I also find the May 78 letter very interesting. I appreciate your efforts to find it and post it. And your analysis. I have posted it here and commented on it. Among the many interesting things about this letter is that the sign off is very similar to the sign off on the EAR poem, which is confirmed from that offender as it had inside info on a victim.

My only point was that Tom has posted and left up the disputed May 78 letter, yet claims he took down the disputed Fairfield letters.

Odd.

But in any event, I am glad that almost everyone seems to appreciate what Morf, me and Zam are doing here, whether or not they think the Fairfield letters real, fake or mixed – which is let everyone see it, all sites, and let everyone decide for themselves.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:47 pm

But in any event, I am glad that almost everyone seems to appreciate what Morf, me and Zam are doing here, whether or not they think the Fairfield letters real, fake or mixed – which is let everyone see it, all sites, and let everyone decide for themselves.

I certainly applaud you all for your willingness to share your information with the masses and the time and effort required to do so.



Zamantha, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:56 pm

But in any event, I am glad that almost everyone seems to appreciate what Morf, me and Zam are doing here, whether or not they think the Fairfield letters real, fake or mixed – which is let everyone see it, all sites, and let everyone decide for themselves.

I certainly applaud you all for your willingness to share your information with the masses and the time and effort required to do so.

You know, I have friends on all 3 sites. And we work together sharing info. Yes we may have different view points…but the thing we all
have in common is we want to find out who the Z is. The more we can share some of this info the better. We may be on different sides of
the fence, but in another way we are all on the same team. There is nothing in this site that can’t be shared……and I would hope that goes for
the other 2 sites. In a way it’s cool, We have Tom’s site with most the foundation Z letters and info. We have Mike B’s site, and they want to talk facts, and we
have Morfs’ site were we can brainstorm and speculate. If we ever find Z, it will be interesting to see if any of us had it right >>grin<< I like
to be a winner….but Will feel like a winner no matter what fact, theory or idea is right. Zo, Go Z TeamZ.



Nin, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:29 pm

..

But in any event, I am glad that almost everyone seems to appreciate what Morf, me and Zam are doing here, whether or not they think the Fairfield letters real, fake or mixed – which is let everyone see it, all sites, and let everyone decide for themselves.

I agree. I believe that the work to solve who Zodiac is or was will involve effort,determination and an open mind. Perhaps it will even involve someone accidently stumbling upon Zodiac’s identity.. The more people share information, the more may stumble upon one thing or another..Get ready to stumble..;)

-Nin

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:22 am

I agree with you, Nin, and I do not think that Z is someone "known" or "on the radar"….so it would be someone accidentally stumbling upon, for example, documents after a relative’s death that could end up bringing him to light…



rand, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:36 pm

I’ve always thought that the dripping pen was a dripping knife reference. I just got a look at the card in color, and the dripping ink is RED.

Why would a Jester "Forget me not" card have the ink be in RED, like dripping blood? The color scheme is also very unique and artsy. Is it possible that Z painted the card?



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:41 pm

Z did make changes to the Halloween card, so that is an interesting idea.

You would think the card company would have ink be blue or black, not red.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:49 pm

I had seen the card in color before, and always surmised that Z colored the red parts in, or at the very least the blood drops.



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:01 am

Just stumbling thru the internet, and caught some posts out there on the bleeding knife letter, which we did our best to share with everyone.

Steve Hodel thought the letter was legitimate, as seen on his site- http://207.56.179.67/steve_hodel/2010/0 … -to-s.html

Other people seemed to say stuff like "hey, didnt Graysmith rule these out as hoax letters in his book?"

And others made comments here- http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/a/po … 529&start=

Anyhow, it is great to see the letter debated with some thinking it is fake and others thinking it is legitimate Zodiac. I personally think it is real. I remember we had a discussion some time back that the bleeding knife letter was received by police BEFORE the Berryessa stabbing details were released to the public, which if true, would seem to make it legitimate as up until then he had only shot people. What did we decided on that, my memory is slipping, LOL



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:05 pm

http://207.56.179.67/steve_hodel/2012/0 … -to-s.html

Hodel has continued to research the "Bleeding Knife" possible Zodiac letter, and makes new comparisons. Kinda interesting stuff…even though I do not agree with his central claim that his father was the Black Dahlia killer (though he was a police suspect and there is some evidence against him) and I particularly strongly disagree with his claim that his father was Zodiac or that the case is connected to Zodiac. Still a few interesting things though.



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:06 pm

Maybe Zodiac was inspired by the Black Dahlia case,or followed it,and got some ideas from that case. No way do I think Hodel’s Father was Z



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:26 pm

Oh I agree. If anything I think Z was a student of crime and may have borrowed ideas and styles from Jack the Ripper ‘FP’ the mad bomber Lindbergh kidnapper and Black Dahlia killer.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:16 pm

From the new FBI files recovered by Morf, these are the ENVELOPES that held the Fairfield "Bleeding Knife…State is in trouble" and "+ he will be a cop" letters.

I have to kinda change my view, I had leaned slightly to somewhat in favor of these perhaps being real Zodiac letters, with him affecting a different style and tone, but still perhaps being from Zodiac, because parts of them rang true to me and fit with other things.

But these envelopes have ZIP CODES, something no real Z letter has, and the overall feel does not look correct to me. I now have to lean towards these letters probably being fake.



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:33 pm

AK, the envelope writing DOES look like the letter writing from the letters you mentioned. Single stamp,not a giant similarity to zodiac.



Quicktrader, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:39 pm

Address is ‘5+ Mission’ or how can I read that? Other letters went to ‘901 Mission Street’..

QT

bruce3, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:00 pm

Gosh whatever happened to double postage? "Postage due" on a real Zodiac missive envelope?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:10 pm

The F’s are upside down.



Seagull, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:46 pm

Address is ‘5+ Mission’ or how can I read that? Other letters went to ‘901 Mission Street’..

QT

I think it means 5th and Mission.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:29 am

Good points bruce3 and morf, and good work trav and others.

I think the zip code on these envelopes, which do not appear on any (?) confirmed Zodiac envelopes, point to these being probable fakes, as does the single stamp leaving postage due.

I unfortunately must shift from leaning probable real to lean probable FAKE.

These just don’t look right.



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:01 am

The F’s are upside down.

TRAV, look closely at the & sign in 5th&mission….you see it? You see how he conects it on the left? Looks like the zodiac comparison to Manalli in which they connect the & sign on the left



traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:13 am

Yup I saw it.

I was curious about the f’s as well. They look correct but deliberately drawn upside down because of the spacing around them. Not very hot on the 4 at all though. It’s not just that it follows through but the shape and space between the prongs isn’t good for a match.

Here’s some of the best matches so far from Zodiac’s own writing. They aren’t a million miles of and some are pretty close. The C in Chronicle appears to be derived from Zodiac’s lower case c as opposed to his upper case examples.

The other interesting thing is the N in Chronicle. That sweeping center piece is unusual and I don’t recall seeing it in anything before but then I haven’t had a look this time to be sure.

My stance / feeling on it would be that it was copied but since there is that possibility and that it is maybe altered, an absolute determination can’t really be affected.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:11 pm

Wow…

I’m sorry you guys. I guess I’m off my rocker. That looks absolutely nothing like Zodiac’s handwriting, altered, copied or otherwise. :scratch:



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:17 pm

Wow…

I’m sorry you guys. I guess I’m off my rocker. That looks absolutely nothing like Zodiac’s handwriting, altered, copied or otherwise. :scratch:

I agree,overall. The & symbol DOES look like Zodiac’s in my opinion,and the upside down f’s look like Z when turned right side up. Besides that, I dont think there is alot of similarity.

bruce3, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:40 pm

What is keeping this knife missive alive is the fact a "knife" is mentioned as well as some similar factors and we have a ‘knife’ used at LB.Of course,LE and the public knew a ‘knife’ was used at LB.I am with Tahoe on this one. I could see if this was done in 1974 when Z changed-to some degree- his motif and writing style,etc.;but this missive was composed during the same time (mo./yr.)the 12/20/69 Belli letter was sent and it appears very different from the 1969 series or the 1970 missive group for that matter.
We always leave the door ajar since Z was not a stable person for sure, and that’s what I am doing here,but it looks very dim as to it being a Z production.I stand fully corrected if it can be shown otherwise,of course.I would be happy if it was found to be a Z.



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:25 pm

Just kicking this letter around a bit more, I go back and forth with it.

This IS the first site anywhere at anytime that this letter has ever been shown, by the way! Same goes with some of the other letters shown here. It is up to each person to decide if they are from Z, or a copycat

Hope to have one or two more coming soon, DESPITE, the FBI saying they have released to me everything they have on the case, I think a few more have slipped thru the cracks



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:01 pm

The word KNIFE in both looks similar. In my opinion, the K on the car door is more like Z’s real, undisguised handwriting, and the bleeding knife may be his after he disguised it.

Concerning the Lake Berryess murder:

As far as I know, the police did NOT share the "by knife" writing on the car door, they kept that a secret from the public.
SO if that is the case, and I sure do belive that it is, then I would say that the VERY close match between "by knife" on the car door written Sep 27, 1969 and the word "knife" written in the possible Zodiac letter postmarked Dec 16, 1969, ca 3 months later, indicate that the "Bleeding knife of Zodiac" indeed could be a true Zodiac letter.

I have reseached to try find any newsreports that mention the lake Berryessa murder car door writing; "By knife" and have not found any in 1969.
Actually I have not been able to find ANY mentioning of the "by knife " until nenwsreports in recent years.

Does anyone know when the info that Zodiac wrote "by knife" on the car door sep 27, 1969, was first released to the public?

In this picture to the right, you can see that LE has concealed the writing "by knife".

Additional reseach on this matter:

I bump one of my old posts in the thred



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:18 pm

I see some similarities,what do you think Foreigner?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:26 pm

Thought I’d have go at restoring it from copy degradation. Some bits are best guess and mostly the blob on the end of zodiac.

I was wondering why it starts with ‘TH’ emphasized and whilst I was restoring it I noticed that the ‘ing’ on ‘bleeding’ appeared to be done slightly lighter. THing.



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:05 pm

Thought I’d have go at restoring it from copy degradation. Some bits are best guess and mostly the blob on the end of zodiac.

I was wondering why it starts with ‘TH’ emphasized and whilst I was restoring it I noticed that the ‘ing’ on ‘bleeding’ appeared to be done slightly lighter. THing.

Well done, wonder if the writer means something by ‘thing’ ?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:00 pm

Well if it is deliberate it would obviously be in reference to his doing his "Thing". Wonder when the dripping pen card was published to the public. After Dec 16 would be interesting.



Seagull, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:05 pm

It was published in the Chronicle Nov. 12, 1969.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ov-12-1969



traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:10 pm

Thanks Deb,

I thought as much. Couldn’t have seen the Chronicle sitting on something like that for over a month.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:30 pm

It is a very interesting letter and I used to think it was possibily real but after seeing the envelope IMO it is probably fake.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:26 pm

Ummm,

Like peoples thoughts on this. One of those things but now I’ve seen it, it seems really glaring. Check out what I think are similarities.



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:41 pm

Ummm,

Like peoples thoughts on this. One of those things but now I’ve seen it, it seems really glaring. Check out what I think are similarities.

WOW! EXELENT work trav, absolutly EXELENT!



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:55 pm

Good work Trav, this is exactly why something has been standing out to me about the Bleeding Knife letter, something about it looks interesting



traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:04 pm

Thanks TF, and Morf

It’s the looped d I find most interesting. I hadn’t thought much about how odd its construction was until now. I don’t think I’ve ever seen zodiac use looped d constructed in that way.

The implications here could be that the bleeding knife, the pines card and the halloween card could all be the work of the same person but not Z.

EDIT: Or I find a d like those and then it all swings the other way.

Nope can’t find any. There a few in the stine letter that look good from a distance but up close nope. So there you go, I can’t, for now, account for that odd d on the pines card within Z’s stuff but there may be links to the aforementioned other contentious letters.



smithy, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:05 am

The implications here could be that the bleeding knife, the pines card and the halloween card could all be the work of the same person but not Z.

;)



tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:31 am

The implications here could be that the bleeding knife, the pines card and the halloween card could all be the work of the same person but not Z.

I’ve laid out my case for the last two of course. I still say both are not from Zodiac. We know there were fake letter writers. Would they stop at just one? Their stuff was getting published, imo, and they got a kick out of it.

The comparison is intriguing. The trace-overs are familiar as well.

Here is the K from the Bleeding Knife letter:

Here is what was a K in the Pines Card address:

Note the "h" within the "K". It is a rounded K almost resembling an "h" or "n". Looks like this was done with the Pines address too.

The Pines and HC card…and this Bleeding Knife letter are the only ones with the need to trace. Interesting!



traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:47 am

Good spot T. Interesting indeed.



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:29 am

To me, what jumps out about the Bleeding Knife is that, at first glance, it does not look like Zodiac. That’s what I find odd, a copycat,if trying to pass off a letter as a real Z letter, could have done a much better job making it look real. If this was written by Z, who knows what he was trying to do or what he was thinking.



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:33 am

TRAV posted this, it is taken from ‘this stae is in trouble’ letter, one that also is thought to be a fake by some people, yet, TRAV illustrates that some of it does closely match Zodiac



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:35 am

Interesting!

There may have been a mix up somewhere. The FBI reports that the "state is in trouble" page one and "bleeding knife" page two were postmarked 12/16/69 FAIRFIELD CA.

This Sacramento Bee paste up is reported as for something else.

That is reported as Q 39, which was sent with the CANCER card!

Q 36 is the envelope for this "state" + "bleeding" letter! I did request that, hopefully I will get it.

The 1981 possible Zodiac letter in the Atlanta Child Murders would also use a newspaper card like this to send a message in.

AK, do we have the FBI page that specifically mentions the opinion of the FBI about the Bleeding Knife letter? I cant seem to find it



Zamantha, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:22 pm

Howard aka Bruce3 & I spoke about this. Howard aka Bruce3 said: The 1990 Christmas Card was traced over too.
FYI: Authorities agree the HC was from the Z and it was traced over in places.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, it seems the Zodiac was into tracing.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:27 pm

Howard aka Bruce3 & I spoke about this. Howard aka Bruce3 said: The 1990 Christmas Card was traced over too.
FYI: Authorities agree the HC was from the Z and it was traced over in places.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, it seems the Zodiac was into tracing.

Yes. Bruce3 has made those points at this message board.

The 1990 Christmas card has in no way been proven to be by Zodiac. We are all aware Morril said the HC card was from Zodiac. I just think there are good examples to reconsider.

So it could be SOMEONE was into tracing….it just wasn’t Zodiac.

To each his own.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:29 pm

"the bleeding knife of Zodiac"……why does the writer refer to Zodiac in the third person? It’s as if the writer is speaking of someone else. I don’t see Zodiac doing that at all.



Zamantha, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:33 pm

Both "by knife" is found in both the car door & the Halloween card. Paradice is misspelled in the Halloween card the same as the Z does in genuine Z letter(s)
http://www.kirps.com/web/main/resources … zodiac340/
The above link is interesting. He sees comparisons between the 480 and the HC card. The four "by(s)
Question: It says Bleeding knife not by knife as was on the car door so why use this argument it does not fit?

Myself, i feel the Z did some tracing.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:48 pm

I find it interesting the two that were traced (is that the write word?) were to Paul Avery.

Why does the handwriting only have these characteristics when writing to Paul?

Split-personalities aside…



Seagull, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:21 pm

Yes, handwriting expert LLoyd Cunningham did feel that the writing on the card had been traced over but he also felt that the 1990 card was a fake because of that tracing over.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Zodi … php#page-1

Zodiac’s written clues fascinate document expert
Lance Williams, San Francisco Chronicle Copyright 2013 San Francisco Chronicle. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Lance Williams, Chronicle Staff Writer
Published 4:00 am, Saturday, March 3, 2007

It’s a task that the world’s leading expert on the handwriting of San Francisco’s most notorious fugitive killer has undertaken literally thousands of times.

From somewhere in the world, someone — police officer, news reporter or amateur sleuth — has sent a document that person suspects was written by the Zodiac, the 1960s serial killer who taunted police with handwritten notes boasting of his crimes, then disappeared.

Patiently and methodically, forensic document examiner Lloyd Cunningham reviews the handwriting, comparing it to known samples of the Zodiac’s own script, looking for a clue that finally will break the case.

But for 27 years, the result has always been the same: no match.

Cunningham, 67, began investigating the Zodiac while a San Francisco police officer and has continued on the case as a private consultant. He insists he feels no frustration when he sits down to examine the latest purported Zodiac document, knowing it is likely to turn out to be junk.

Nor, he says, is he daunted by the avalanche of new Zodiac suspects — "friends, neighbors, relatives, ex-spouses, whoever people want to pin the Zodiac murders on," as he describes them — likely to be generated by the new "Zodiac" movie.

"Who knows?" he said Thursday in a phone interview from his home near Palm Springs. "Maybe one of them is right."

Cunningham became a police officer in 1963. On the night of Oct. 11, 1969, while working a plainclothes assignment, he was among dozens of officers who flooded the Presidio after the shooting of cab driver Paul Stine — the last of the Zodiac’s verified kills.

In 1980, after training with the U.S. Secret Service, Cunningham became the department’s first forensic document examiner. Before then, police had relied on the state crime lab to analyze documentary evidence.

While an officer, and since he retired in 1991, Cunningham has worked on hundreds of legal cases. For Colorado authorities, he examined the ransom letter in the JonBenet Ramsey case. He reconstructed notes that mass killers Leonard Lake and Charles Ng forced their victims to write in the 1980s sex-slave murder ring in Calaveras County.

Nothing in his career has been quite like Zodiac. Cunningham plunged into the case immediately after finishing his forensic training. In those days, police received as many as 30 purported Zodiac documents per week.

"All over the world, people were mesmerized by the Zodiac mystery," he says, "and everyone’s relative or ex-friend became a suspect."

Cunningham spent long hours with what he calls the case’s "Rosetta Stone" — the letter received by The Chronicle two days after the Stine killing in 1969. Because it contains a bloodstained piece of the victim’s shirt, it’s the only Zodiac letter that undeniably came from the killer.

Over the years, Cunningham says he memorized Zodiac’s handwriting, including the uniqueness of its letter forms. The killer crossed his "t" low on the vertical stroke, Cunningham notes, and formed a distinctive "saddle" between the legs of his lowercase "m." He usually left generous spacing between lines, Cunningham says.

Copycat Zodiac missives often can be easy to spot, he says. A tip-off to copied or disguised handwriting is a lack of "fluency," he says.

"There’s a rhythm in writing," he says — when people jot notes or sign documents, they write quickly and confidently. "But if someone tries to copy or disguise their handwriting, it’s no longer spontaneous," he says, and an expert can see signs of the effort in the script.

Soon after he retired, Cunningham says he was brought back into the Zodiac case by the Vallejo police, who were taking a new run at solving the crime. Their suspect was Arthur Leigh Allen, a retired schoolteacher, former mental patient and convicted child molester who had been singled out by Zodiac investigators in the 1970s but was cleared after he passed a lie detector test. Allen, who died in 1992, is still the favorite Zodiac suspect of some experts on the case, including Robert Graysmith, the former Chronicle editorial cartoonist who wrote the book on which the movie was based.

In 1991, police raided Allen’s home in Vallejo and seized a trove of potential evidence, including a box of handwritten letters that spanned 25 years. Cunningham spent days examining them.

"I went through every piece of his known writing and compared it, and I couldn’t find any evidence to link him to the Zodiac writings," Cunningham says.

But police didn’t give up on Allen. They theorized that Allen had committed the Zodiac killings with an accomplice and that the accomplice had written the Zodiac letters. Cunningham says he thought the theory was promising. When police seized specimens of the suspected accomplice’s handwriting, Cunningham believed a break in the case had finally come.

"My heart was going pitter-pat," he says. Then he sat down with the documents.

"We really thought Arthur Leigh Allen did the killings and this guy did the writing," Cunningham says. "I was never so let down — it just wasn’t the guy."

The most recent Zodiac-style document that Cunningham has examined came to him via The Chronicle’s photo archive.

In an envelope of old news photos of the Zodiac case, editorial assistant Daniel King found a Christmas card addressed to The Chronicle and postmarked 1990. The handwriting resembled the Zodiac’s, and the card itself was similar to one the killer is thought to have sent to the newspaper during his killing spree.

No one at the newspaper today remembers receiving the Christmas card or how it came to be put in the Zodiac photo file. The Chronicle gave the card and envelope last week to Vallejo police, the lead agency on the Zodiac murders, and provided Cunningham with scans of the documents.

Cunningham pointed out several similarities between the writing on the envelope and the Zodiac’s script but noted discrepancies as well. More important, he says, the writing looked like it had been done slowly and carefully and in places appeared to have been overwritten.

"The big problem you have here is, why would a person overwrite all of these letters?" he says. "The Zodiac never did that in any of his writings." The overwriting led him to suspect that the writer was copying or tracing the script from another document.

"I could never conclude that this is the writing of the Zodiac," he says. "It tends to lean the other way — I have the impression that someone tried to imitate the Zodiac’s handwriting."



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:32 pm

AK, do we have the FBI page that specifically mentions the opinion of the FBI about the Bleeding Knife letter? I cant seem to find it

AK Wilks: What follows is my original post with an assist from tahoe. I am still troubled by the envelopes, with a zip code and postage due, uncharacteristic of Zodiac. Yet trav and morf and others have pointed out interesting similarities with these Fairfield letters and the Pines card and other Zodiac missives.

I stumbled across something nobody has found.

I was trying to get more information on what the FBI thought of these Fairfield letters.

I found an FBI file were the analyst says that the Belli letter has matches to the 12/7 and 12/16 Fairfield letters, that compared to pre-December Z letters these three have distortion and were not written as freely, but that they have similar characteristics to other Zodiac letters, and that ‘one person may have prepared ALL the threatening letters in this matter.’

A VERY SIGNIFICANT FIND! {Maybe – AK 2013}

The FBI analyst gives the same level of endorsement to the Fairfield letters that he gives to the Belli letter.

Look at pages 64, 65 and 70 here:

http://foia.fbi.gov/zodiac/zodiac3.pdf

Can someone save those and post those pages here?

Thanks!

Here ya go!

PG 64:

PG 65:

PG 70:



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:04 am

So what the analyst stated, was, the Bleeding knife has some distortion,but also some traits similar to other Zodiac letters.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:22 am

That darn "may" word again. I wish they say what the similiar characteristics were…not that we can’t see for ourselves, but it would be nice to read their take on it.

What was Q41? Have we seen that?

Edit: I see we have seen it. The FBI seems to believe the astrology and the Flight 555 stuff aren’t Zodiac.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:07 am

I cannot access any of the FBI files on Zodiac via the links.

Anyone know what Q34 was in regards to AK’s recent post? It states the bleeding knife letter (Q36-38) doesn’t really resemble to the threatening letters prior to Q34, but does bear similarities to Q34 & Q35.

Q34 & 35?



Zamantha, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:18 am

I cannot access any of the FBI files on Zodiac via the links.

Anyone know what Q34 was in regards to AK’s recent post? It states the bleeding knife letter (Q36-38) doesn’t really resemble to the threatening letters prior to Q34, but does bear similarities to Q34 & Q35.

Q34 & 35?

Qc34 Envelope: SF Chronicle, postmarked Fairfield, CA December 7, 1969
Qc35 Letter: "This is the Zodiac speaking-I just need help-I will kill again…I will turn myself in O.K."



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:21 am

I cannot access any of the FBI files on Zodiac via the links.

Anyone know what Q34 was in regards to AK’s recent post? It states the bleeding knife letter (Q36-38) doesn’t really resemble to the threatening letters prior to Q34, but does bear similarities to Q34 & Q35.

Q34 & 35?

Qc34 Envelope: SF Chronicle, postmarked Fairfield, CA December 7, 1969
Qc35 Letter: "This is the Zodiac speaking-I just need help-I will kill again…I will turn myself in O.K."

Yep Zam got it. Q35 is the letter postmarked 12/7/69 Fairfield that contains the lines noted by Zam above, also it has a short cipher and the line "+ he will be a cop".

Q34 – Q38 are the 12/7/69 and 12/16/69 Fairfield letters and envelopes.

Q43 and Q44 are the Belli letter and envelope of 12/20/69.

The examiner notes that the Fairfield letters AND the Belli letter contain some "distortion" and appear to have been "not written as freely" as prior letters.

But then the examiner notes (on page 65) that the Fairfield letters have characteristics which indicate they "may have been prepared" by the same person who wrote the earlier confirmed Zodiac letters.

Now, just to be fair, and consider all sides, no Fairfield letter appears on the SFPD list of confirmed Zodiac letters. And I don’t know the opinion of California DOJ or Morrill on the Fairfield letters.

The content lacks the tone of previous letters. It seems rushed and not as thought out. It is sort of simple minded and lacks the wit and intelligence of most previous Z letters.

There are clear differences in some of the writing, along with some similarities.

So ultimately, there is evidence to supprt both positions.

And the envelopes from Fairfield have zip codes and are under posted…those are deviations from known Zodiac practices which lean me towards these interesting letters probably being fake.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:37 am

I cannot access any of the FBI files on Zodiac via the links.

Anyone know what Q34 was in regards to AK’s recent post? It states the bleeding knife letter (Q36-38) doesn’t really resemble to the threatening letters prior to Q34, but does bear similarities to Q34 & Q35.

Q34 & 35?

Qc34 Envelope: SF Chronicle, postmarked Fairfield, CA December 7, 1969
Qc35 Letter: "This is the Zodiac speaking-I just need help-I will kill again…I will turn myself in O.K."

Thanks Zam….and AK

It’s this one. And I could see why they would say that. Look at the "f".

…zodiackillertruth.com



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:49 am

I cannot access any of the FBI files on Zodiac via the links.

Anyone know what Q34 was in regards to AK’s recent post? It states the bleeding knife letter (Q36-38) doesn’t really resemble to the threatening letters prior to Q34, but does bear similarities to Q34 & Q35.

Q34 & 35?

Qc34 Envelope: SF Chronicle, postmarked Fairfield, CA December 7, 1969
Qc35 Letter: "This is the Zodiac speaking-I just need help-I will kill again…I will turn myself in O.K."

Thanks Zam….and AK

It’s this one. And I could see why they would say that. Look at the "f".

…zodiackillertruth.com

TAHOE, this is from Z in my opinion, or a very good copycat. Here’s why-
The lower case G, trails to the left under itself, we have seen that from Z. There are 3 stroke K’s. The lower case J looks like Z. And that F you pointed out, its kind of blurry, but look closely, it looks like these as compared by TRAV-(see green arrow)



tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:08 pm

I don’t think it’s even a good copy-cat.

All from Fairfield, and they look alike, but honeslty…do you REALLY think that looks like Zodiac’s writing? ESPECIALLY that envelope?

Morrill must not have put this in the Zodiac catagory.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:55 am

Found the FBI handwriting comp for bleeding knife and state is in trouble letters. I’m particularly impressed with the d and e.



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:23 am

Found the FBI handwriting comp for bleeding knife and state is in trouble letters. I’m particularly impressed with the d and e.

Impressed meaning Zodiac like? I have leaned towards this being possibly from Z,simply because it doesnt look alot like Z at first. If it was a copycat,seems like they would do all they could to make it look identical to Z. Instead,we get a crude drawing,etc



traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:51 am

To each other but not to Z. At least for now it doesn’t strike me as Z.



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:47 am

To each other but not to Z. At least for now it doesn’t strike me as Z.

How about with the letter F? Z used his candy cane F frequently,but he alsoused the weird fancy/flimsy looking F like we see in the bleeding knife letter



traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:17 pm

I could probably find reasonable arguments or examples to explain how some of the characters appear similar to Z’s and explain why there are differences. The fact that I would have to approach it like that makes me suspicious enough of it. Considering it pretty much matches the other letter makes it moreso. This shows an example of style being applied across two separate documents which to me is not Z like.

The only style that Z employed consistently in that regard was his own style, the style we are most familiar with. Even if we accept that the questioned ones are Zodiac there wasn’t a re-used style, each one was different whereas here we have two the same.

I haven’t looked at it in detail but, for reasons stated above, it doesn’t feel like Zodiac.

~EDIT: Just to add I really don’t like the d in regards to it being Z. It’s too distinctive and even though it could be argued it’s the same construction it’s really not. There are now 3 instances of this d off the top of my head, the two instances here and the pines card. 3 is a pattern and not just of potential same author but a pattern for that d which makes it very distinctive for me.

Zodiac had already well established an ingrained way of doing his d’s and I can’t see a competing one emerging all of a sudden. Variations possibly but not a new style for that particular character. When I say ingrained I obviously mean used a lot, like everyday. I was reading an article last night in the FBI files where Morrill stated that he was convinced that what we know of as Zodiac’s writing was his actual handwriting due to the high instance of repeated patterns in the characters. So that’s the level of ingrain we’re talking about here yet with this new d we see several instances of it with little or no sign of hesitation in the construction hence the close similarities to each other suggesting that it, itself is an ingrained construction so you would have to have one or the other but not both but here we do have both – we have Zodiac’s d and then this other d.



morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:56 pm

I definitely agree with Morrill, that most of the confirmed Z writing is likely his real everyday printed writing. He wrote way too many pages. For example, the Belli letter starts off as if he is trying to write nice & neat and organized,and by the end, it looks like most of his other writing. And the 6 page letter he wrote,would be hard to disguise 6 pages of writing. Maybe he held the pen a little differently then he did in his normal every day life,or slanted the paper or something along those lines,but I dont think he drastically disquised his writing. Somebody,someplace, has to have read papers or documents written by Z in his normal everyday life, or received letters from him,etc. Surprising nobody ever came forward to say they recognized it.


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : April 18, 2013 6:50 am
(@gestr)
Posts: 69
Trusted Member
 

The "N" in "Chronicle" on the envelope is like the "N" in "ATTN" on the Hautz letter envelope.

 
Posted : December 28, 2013 12:27 pm
(@gestr)
Posts: 69
Trusted Member
 

@Traveller,

You don’t believe Z could come up with a new style of "d"? Do you disbelieve that he wrote the Count Marco letter? He has many styles, depending on his frame of mind.

 
Posted : December 28, 2013 12:39 pm
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
Member Moderator
 

@Traveller,

You don’t believe Z could come up with a new style of "d"? Do you disbelieve that he wrote the Count Marco letter? He has many styles, depending on his frame of mind.

I find it less likely. Doesn’t mean he wouldn’t but you have to draw boundaries somewhere or you’d get lost with no direction. Do I think he wrote the Marco letter? I tempted to almost not answer that one lol. Yes, I do think he wrote it, in-fact I’m convinced of it.

viewtopic.php?f=96&t=789

and the desk

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=397

His own writing, and styles, are complicated enough to get one’s head around, which is why I usually include the disclaimer "for now". I don’t discount anything completely. I revisit everything, in time, as I progress with his own writing and what it tells me.


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : December 28, 2013 3:37 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
Member Admin
Topic starter
 

Over at ZK.com, they were disucssing the bleeding knife letter, and there were a couple people that pointed out some interesting things:

NYCDUDE-"Another revelation about this letter that literally made me jump out of bed last night:
If you sum up the numbers from the list of planned murders in various Bay Area locations, you get 38. Quite an arbitrary number, no?
Now look at the undisputed Zodiac letters. From the April 1970 "My Name Is…" bomb diagram onwards we see a gradual increase in Z’s self-proclaimed body count, from "Me = 10" upwards to "Me = 12" on the button letter, to "Me = 13" on the "Little List" letter, and finally the March 1971 L.A. Times letter proclaiming "Me = 17".
The next time we see a body count proclaimed by Z, he has broken a 3 year silence to write the Chronicle and proclaim "Me = 37". Quite a jump, and to quite an arbitrary number once again, isn’t it?
Perhaps he is alluding to his previous plans and is saying "I’m one kill away, now’s the chance to finally get me"?
I’ve always believed that Z included small clues (such as double postage) to authenticate his messages. This is why I also believe the 1990 Eureka postcard is legit (due to the zip code reminder postmark and the use of "secret pal" on the greeting card)."

Also from NYCDUDE-
"One thing that stands out to me about the dripping knife letter… The use of ditto marks, which would soon appear on the April 1970 "My Name Is…" Bomb Diagram.
I’m not sure how common the usage of ditto marks were in the pre-computers era. But to the best of my recollection Z hadn’t used them in any previous communications.
So logically, one has to note the coincidence of these two usages, roughly 6 months apart, with neither party (assuming the dripping knife author isn’t Z) knowing about the other’s letter.
To me, it lends more credence to this letter being legit. The hyperbolic use of exclamations and crude drawings doesn’t seem too out of place if you consider the other deviations Z made in his past correspondence (tight penmanship at some times, sloppier, looser lines at others, exaggerated crosshair symbols etc.
)."

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : January 21, 2014 7:16 pm
(@snooter)
Posts: 419
Reputable Member
 

i have looked at morfs post like this for some time without comment (great job as usual morf even though i remained silent)..I am simply not sure of any explicit link to Z in some of these letters..but i get an eerie feeling about them and in some cases my eyes say they could be Z..my gut says copycat but I just cant get over the feeling that they may indeed be Z..this is why i never gamble..should i play the red or the black on the roulette wheel and every time I am sitting on 15 and ask for another card i bust out over 21…

 
Posted : September 2, 2014 10:46 pm
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