morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:20 pm

That is just the FBI publicly released Zodiac file, also available at the FBI website. It does NOT contain the actual letters.

If Tom actually has the letters, he should post them and the envelope, which I am still waiting for.

Tom claims he had this a decade ago, posted it, then decided it was fake and took it down. If true, let him post the envelope.

Tom has the May 1978 possible Zodiac letter mentioning the Manson Family, which has never been authenticated and most researchers think it fake, yet Tom has it up at his site. Odd why he would decide to remove the Fairfield letters, when the FBI analysis says they "probably" are real.

At this site, it will not be Morf, me, Zam, Auth or Solar decding what is real and what is fake. Suspected and possible Zodiac letters and envelopes will be posted for all to see, and sent to all major sites and researchers (as I sent this to Tom, Mike B, Chris Y, Ricardo, Doug Oswell and Roland), so that people can view them, study them, discuss, debate and decide for themselves.

Well said. We are working to get stuff and share it with everyone at all sites. We arent telling them what to do with it or what to think. If you think its fake, that’s great. If you think its real, thats cool too.

bruce3, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:45 pm

The doc experts could never come to a conclusion on the May ’78 KHJ Channel Nine letter.It was hidden from view as well as the envelope for many years until a photographer found it.The LAPD Archivst would not allow him access to it to photograph it,including the envelope,etc.It was very tense until Parks allowed him to take the photos.

He went to then Chief Parks and got permission.I worked with him getting a copy which took months.It was very,very frustrating going back and forth with him on getting those photographs,which I finally got during Christmas one year-nice gift! I was the first to publish the envelope as shown on my site.

I have gone through every Z letter and compared them to every detail on the envelope and the letter itself.Even the minutest details are in that letter, which amazed me.This includes content or similar Z- like statements,etc.
Some of my analysis is on my site.I still need to post the rest of my study,which took months.I used ultraviolet light with extreme magnification and found quite a lot of matches to known Z missives.

All of the carping has come from those who have only done a lazy cursory hatchet job.I say spend the time -lots of it -before one goes off half cocked.The CM reference turns them off I know.

Kelleher and others do believe it is probably a Z missive.I do.Keep in mind it had been four years since his last communication.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:00 pm

I also find the May 78 letter very interesting. I appreciate your efforts to find it and post it. And your analysis. I have posted it here and commented on it. Among the many interesting things about this letter is that the sign off is very similar to the sign off on the EAR poem, which is confirmed from that offender as it had inside info on a victim.

My only point was that Tom has posted and left up the disputed May 78 letter, yet claims he took down the disputed Fairfield letters.

Odd.

But in any event, I am glad that almost everyone seems to appreciate what Morf, me and Zam are doing here, whether or not they think the Fairfield letters real, fake or mixed – which is let everyone see it, all sites, and let everyone decide for themselves.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:47 pm

But in any event, I am glad that almost everyone seems to appreciate what Morf, me and Zam are doing here, whether or not they think the Fairfield letters real, fake or mixed – which is let everyone see it, all sites, and let everyone decide for themselves.

I certainly applaud you all for your willingness to share your information with the masses and the time and effort required to do so.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:56 pm

But in any event, I am glad that almost everyone seems to appreciate what Morf, me and Zam are doing here, whether or not they think the Fairfield letters real, fake or mixed – which is let everyone see it, all sites, and let everyone decide for themselves.

I certainly applaud you all for your willingness to share your information with the masses and the time and effort required to do so.

You know, I have friends on all 3 sites. And we work together sharing info. Yes we may have different view points…but the thing we all
have in common is we want to find out who the Z is. The more we can share some of this info the better. We may be on different sides of
the fence, but in another way we are all on the same team. There is nothing in this site that can’t be shared……and I would hope that goes for
the other 2 sites. In a way it’s cool, We have Tom’s site with most the foundation Z letters and info. We have Mike B’s site, and they want to talk facts, and we
have Morfs’ site were we can brainstorm and speculate. If we ever find Z, it will be interesting to see if any of us had it right >>grin<< I like
to be a winner….but Will feel like a winner no matter what fact, theory or idea is right. Zo, Go Z TeamZ.

Nin, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:29 pm

..

But in any event, I am glad that almost everyone seems to appreciate what Morf, me and Zam are doing here, whether or not they think the Fairfield letters real, fake or mixed – which is let everyone see it, all sites, and let everyone decide for themselves.

I agree. I believe that the work to solve who Zodiac is or was will involve effort,determination and an open mind. Perhaps it will even involve someone accidently stumbling upon Zodiac’s identity.. The more people share information, the more may stumble upon one thing or another..Get ready to stumble..

-Nin

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:22 am

I agree with you, Nin, and I do not think that Z is someone "known" or "on the radar"….so it would be someone accidentally stumbling upon, for example, documents after a relative’s death that could end up bringing him to light…

rand, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:36 pm

I’ve always thought that the dripping pen was a dripping knife reference. I just got a look at the card in color, and the dripping ink is RED.

Why would a Jester "Forget me not" card have the ink be in RED, like dripping blood? The color scheme is also very unique and artsy. Is it possible that Z painted the card?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:41 pm

Z did make changes to the Halloween card, so that is an interesting idea.

You would think the card company would have ink be blue or black, not red.

, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:49 pm

I had seen the card in color before, and always surmised that Z colored the red parts in, or at the very least the blood drops.

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:01 am

Just stumbling thru the internet, and caught some posts out there on the bleeding knife letter, which we did our best to share with everyone.

Steve Hodel thought the letter was legitimate, as seen on his site- http://207.56.179.67/steve_hodel/2010/0 … -to-s.html

Other people seemed to say stuff like "hey, didnt Graysmith rule these out as hoax letters in his book?"

And others made comments here- http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/a/po … 529&start=

Anyhow, it is great to see the letter debated with some thinking it is fake and others thinking it is legitimate Zodiac. I personally think it is real. I remember we had a discussion some time back that the bleeding knife letter was received by police BEFORE the Berryessa stabbing details were released to the public, which if true, would seem to make it legitimate as up until then he had only shot people. What did we decided on that, my memory is slipping, LOL

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:05 pm

http://207.56.179.67/steve_hodel/2012/0 … -to-s.html

Hodel has continued to research the "Bleeding Knife" possible Zodiac letter, and makes new comparisons. Kinda interesting stuff…even though I do not agree with his central claim that his father was the Black Dahlia killer (though he was a police suspect and there is some evidence against him) and I particularly strongly disagree with his claim that his father was Zodiac or that the case is connected to Zodiac. Still a few interesting things though.

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:06 pm

Maybe Zodiac was inspired by the Black Dahlia case,or followed it,and got some ideas from that case. No way do I think Hodel’s Father was Z

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:26 pm

Oh I agree. If anything I think Z was a student of crime and may have borrowed ideas and styles from Jack the Ripper ‘FP’ the mad bomber Lindbergh kidnapper and Black Dahlia killer.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:16 pm

From the new FBI files recovered by Morf, these are the ENVELOPES that held the Fairfield "Bleeding Knife…State is in trouble" and "+ he will be a cop" letters.

I have to kinda change my view, I had leaned slightly to somewhat in favor of these perhaps being real Zodiac letters, with him affecting a different style and tone, but still perhaps being from Zodiac, because parts of them rang true to me and fit with other things.

But these envelopes have ZIP CODES, something no real Z letter has, and the overall feel does not look correct to me. I now have to lean towards these letters probably being fake.

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:33 pm

AK, the envelope writing DOES look like the letter writing from the letters you mentioned. Single stamp,not a giant similarity to zodiac.

Quicktrader, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:39 pm

Address is ‘5+ Mission’ or how can I read that? Other letters went to ‘901 Mission Street’..

QT

bruce3, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:00 pm

Gosh whatever happened to double postage? "Postage due" on a real Zodiac missive envelope?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:10 pm

The F’s are upside down.

Seagull, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:46 pm

Address is ‘5+ Mission’ or how can I read that? Other letters went to ‘901 Mission Street’..

QT

I think it means 5th and Mission.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:29 am

Good points bruce3 and morf, and good work trav and others.

I think the zip code on these envelopes, which do not appear on any (?) confirmed Zodiac envelopes, point to these being probable fakes, as does the single stamp leaving postage due.

I unfortunately must shift from leaning probable real to lean probable FAKE.

These just don’t look right.

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:01 am

The F’s are upside down.

TRAV, look closely at the & sign in 5th&mission….you see it? You see how he conects it on the left? Looks like the zodiac comparison to Manalli in which they connect the & sign on the left

traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:13 am

Yup I saw it.

I was curious about the f’s as well. They look correct but deliberately drawn upside down because of the spacing around them. Not very hot on the 4 at all though. It’s not just that it follows through but the shape and space between the prongs isn’t good for a match.

Here’s some of the best matches so far from Zodiac’s own writing. They aren’t a million miles of and some are pretty close. The C in Chronicle appears to be derived from Zodiac’s lower case c as opposed to his upper case examples.

The other interesting thing is the N in Chronicle. That sweeping center piece is unusual and I don’t recall seeing it in anything before but then I haven’t had a look this time to be sure.

My stance / feeling on it would be that it was copied but since there is that possibility and that it is maybe altered, an absolute determination can’t really be affected.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:11 pm

Wow…

I’m sorry you guys. I guess I’m off my rocker. That looks absolutely nothing like Zodiac’s handwriting, altered, copied or otherwise. :scratch:

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:17 pm

Wow…

I’m sorry you guys. I guess I’m off my rocker. That looks absolutely nothing like Zodiac’s handwriting, altered, copied or otherwise. :scratch:

I agree,overall. The & symbol DOES look like Zodiac’s in my opinion,and the upside down f’s look like Z when turned right side up. Besides that, I dont think there is alot of similarity.

bruce3, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:40 pm

What is keeping this knife missive alive is the fact a "knife" is mentioned as well as some similar factors and we have a ‘knife’ used at LB.Of course,LE and the public knew a ‘knife’ was used at LB.I am with Tahoe on this one. I could see if this was done in 1974 when Z changed-to some degree- his motif and writing style,etc.;but this missive was composed during the same time (mo./yr.)the 12/20/69 Belli letter was sent and it appears very different from the 1969 series or the 1970 missive group for that matter.
We always leave the door ajar since Z was not a stable person for sure, and that’s what I am doing here,but it looks very dim as to it being a Z production.I stand fully corrected if it can be shown otherwise,of course.I would be happy if it was found to be a Z.

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:25 pm

Just kicking this letter around a bit more, I go back and forth with it.

This IS the first site anywhere at anytime that this letter has ever been shown, by the way! Same goes with some of the other letters shown here. It is up to each person to decide if they are from Z, or a copycat

Hope to have one or two more coming soon, DESPITE, the FBI saying they have released to me everything they have on the case, I think a few more have slipped thru the cracks

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:01 pm

The word KNIFE in both looks similar. In my opinion, the K on the car door is more like Z’s real, undisguised handwriting, and the bleeding knife may be his after he disguised it.

Concerning the Lake Berryess murder:

As far as I know, the police did NOT share the "by knife" writing on the car door, they kept that a secret from the public.
SO if that is the case, and I sure do belive that it is, then I would say that the VERY close match between "by knife" on the car door written Sep 27, 1969 and the word "knife" written in the possible Zodiac letter postmarked Dec 16, 1969, ca 3 months later, indicate that the "Bleeding knife of Zodiac" indeed could be a true Zodiac letter.

I have reseached to try find any newsreports that mention the lake Berryessa murder car door writing; "By knife" and have not found any in 1969.
Actually I have not been able to find ANY mentioning of the "by knife " until nenwsreports in recent years.

Does anyone know when the info that Zodiac wrote "by knife" on the car door sep 27, 1969, was first released to the public?

In this picture to the right, you can see that LE has concealed the writing "by knife".

Additional reseach on this matter:

I bump one of my old posts in the thred

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:18 pm

I see some similarities,what do you think Foreigner?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:26 pm

Thought I’d have go at restoring it from copy degradation. Some bits are best guess and mostly the blob on the end of zodiac.

I was wondering why it starts with ‘TH’ emphasized and whilst I was restoring it I noticed that the ‘ing’ on ‘bleeding’ appeared to be done slightly lighter. THing.

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:05 pm

Thought I’d have go at restoring it from copy degradation. Some bits are best guess and mostly the blob on the end of zodiac.

I was wondering why it starts with ‘TH’ emphasized and whilst I was restoring it I noticed that the ‘ing’ on ‘bleeding’ appeared to be done slightly lighter. THing.

Well done, wonder if the writer means something by ‘thing’ ?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:00 pm

Well if it is deliberate it would obviously be in reference to his doing his "Thing". Wonder when the dripping pen card was published to the public. After Dec 16 would be interesting.

Seagull, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:05 pm

It was published in the Chronicle Nov. 12, 1969.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ov-12-1969

traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:10 pm

Thanks Deb,

I thought as much. Couldn’t have seen the Chronicle sitting on something like that for over a month.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:30 pm

It is a very interesting letter and I used to think it was possibily real but after seeing the envelope IMO it is probably fake.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:26 pm

Ummm,

Like peoples thoughts on this. One of those things but now I’ve seen it, it seems really glaring. Check out what I think are similarities.

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:41 pm

Ummm,

Like peoples thoughts on this. One of those things but now I’ve seen it, it seems really glaring. Check out what I think are similarities.

WOW! EXELENT work trav, absolutly EXELENT!

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:55 pm

Good work Trav, this is exactly why something has been standing out to me about the Bleeding Knife letter, something about it looks interesting

traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:04 pm

Thanks TF, and Morf

It’s the looped d I find most interesting. I hadn’t thought much about how odd its construction was until now. I don’t think I’ve ever seen zodiac use looped d constructed in that way.

The implications here could be that the bleeding knife, the pines card and the halloween card could all be the work of the same person but not Z.

EDIT: Or I find a d like those and then it all swings the other way.

Nope can’t find any. There a few in the stine letter that look good from a distance but up close nope. So there you go, I can’t, for now, account for that odd d on the pines card within Z’s stuff but there may be links to the aforementioned other contentious letters.

smithy, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:05 am

The implications here could be that the bleeding knife, the pines card and the halloween card could all be the work of the same person but not Z.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:31 am

The implications here could be that the bleeding knife, the pines card and the halloween card could all be the work of the same person but not Z.

I’ve laid out my case for the last two of course. I still say both are not from Zodiac. We know there were fake letter writers. Would they stop at just one? Their stuff was getting published, imo, and they got a kick out of it.

The comparison is intriguing. The trace-overs are familiar as well.

Here is the K from the Bleeding Knife letter:

Here is what was a K in the Pines Card address:

Note the "h" within the "K". It is a rounded K almost resembling an "h" or "n". Looks like this was done with the Pines address too.

The Pines and HC card…and this Bleeding Knife letter are the only ones with the need to trace. Interesting!

traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:47 am

Good spot T. Interesting indeed.

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:29 am

To me, what jumps out about the Bleeding Knife is that, at first glance, it does not look like Zodiac. That’s what I find odd, a copycat,if trying to pass off a letter as a real Z letter, could have done a much better job making it look real. If this was written by Z, who knows what he was trying to do or what he was thinking.

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:33 am

TRAV posted this, it is taken from ‘this stae is in trouble’ letter, one that also is thought to be a fake by some people, yet, TRAV illustrates that some of it does closely match Zodiac

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:35 am

Interesting!

There may have been a mix up somewhere. The FBI reports that the "state is in trouble" page one and "bleeding knife" page two were postmarked 12/16/69 FAIRFIELD CA.

This Sacramento Bee paste up is reported as for something else.

That is reported as Q 39, which was sent with the CANCER card!

Q 36 is the envelope for this "state" + "bleeding" letter! I did request that, hopefully I will get it.

The 1981 possible Zodiac letter in the Atlanta Child Murders would also use a newspaper card like this to send a message in.

AK, do we have the FBI page that specifically mentions the opinion of the FBI about the Bleeding Knife letter? I cant seem to find it

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:22 pm

Howard aka Bruce3 & I spoke about this. Howard aka Bruce3 said: The 1990 Christmas Card was traced over too.
FYI: Authorities agree the HC was from the Z and it was traced over in places.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, it seems the Zodiac was into tracing.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:27 pm

Howard aka Bruce3 & I spoke about this. Howard aka Bruce3 said: The 1990 Christmas Card was traced over too.
FYI: Authorities agree the HC was from the Z and it was traced over in places.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, it seems the Zodiac was into tracing.

Yes. Bruce3 has made those points at this message board.

The 1990 Christmas card has in no way been proven to be by Zodiac. We are all aware Morril said the HC card was from Zodiac. I just think there are good examples to reconsider.

So it could be SOMEONE was into tracing….it just wasn’t Zodiac.

To each his own.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:29 pm

"the bleeding knife of Zodiac"……why does the writer refer to Zodiac in the third person? It’s as if the writer is speaking of someone else. I don’t see Zodiac doing that at all.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:33 pm

Both "by knife" is found in both the car door & the Halloween card. Paradice is misspelled in the Halloween card the same as the Z does in genuine Z letter(s)
http://www.kirps.com/web/main/resources … zodiac340/
The above link is interesting. He sees comparisons between the 480 and the HC card. The four "by(s)
Question: It says Bleeding knife not by knife as was on the car door so why use this argument it does not fit?

Myself, i feel the Z did some tracing.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:48 pm

I find it interesting the two that were traced (is that the write word?) were to Paul Avery.

Why does the handwriting only have these characteristics when writing to Paul?

Split-personalities aside…

Seagull, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:21 pm

Yes, handwriting expert LLoyd Cunningham did feel that the writing on the card had been traced over but he also felt that the 1990 card was a fake because of that tracing over.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Zodi … php#page-1

Zodiac’s written clues fascinate document expert
Lance Williams, San Francisco Chronicle Copyright 2013 San Francisco Chronicle. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Lance Williams, Chronicle Staff Writer
Published 4:00 am, Saturday, March 3, 2007

It’s a task that the world’s leading expert on the handwriting of San Francisco’s most notorious fugitive killer has undertaken literally thousands of times.

From somewhere in the world, someone — police officer, news reporter or amateur sleuth — has sent a document that person suspects was written by the Zodiac, the 1960s serial killer who taunted police with handwritten notes boasting of his crimes, then disappeared.

Patiently and methodically, forensic document examiner Lloyd Cunningham reviews the handwriting, comparing it to known samples of the Zodiac’s own script, looking for a clue that finally will break the case.

But for 27 years, the result has always been the same: no match.

Cunningham, 67, began investigating the Zodiac while a San Francisco police officer and has continued on the case as a private consultant. He insists he feels no frustration when he sits down to examine the latest purported Zodiac document, knowing it is likely to turn out to be junk.

Nor, he says, is he daunted by the avalanche of new Zodiac suspects — "friends, neighbors, relatives, ex-spouses, whoever people want to pin the Zodiac murders on," as he describes them — likely to be generated by the new "Zodiac" movie.

"Who knows?" he said Thursday in a phone interview from his home near Palm Springs. "Maybe one of them is right."

Cunningham became a police officer in 1963. On the night of Oct. 11, 1969, while working a plainclothes assignment, he was among dozens of officers who flooded the Presidio after the shooting of cab driver Paul Stine — the last of the Zodiac’s verified kills.

In 1980, after training with the U.S. Secret Service, Cunningham became the department’s first forensic document examiner. Before then, police had relied on the state crime lab to analyze documentary evidence.

While an officer, and since he retired in 1991, Cunningham has worked on hundreds of legal cases. For Colorado authorities, he examined the ransom letter in the JonBenet Ramsey case. He reconstructed notes that mass killers Leonard Lake and Charles Ng forced their victims to write in the 1980s sex-slave murder ring in Calaveras County.

Nothing in his career has been quite like Zodiac. Cunningham plunged into the case immediately after finishing his forensic training. In those days, police received as many as 30 purported Zodiac documents per week.

"All over the world, people were mesmerized by the Zodiac mystery," he says, "and everyone’s relative or ex-friend became a suspect."

Cunningham spent long hours with what he calls the case’s "Rosetta Stone" — the letter received by The Chronicle two days after the Stine killing in 1969. Because it contains a bloodstained piece of the victim’s shirt, it’s the only Zodiac letter that undeniably came from the killer.

Over the years, Cunningham says he memorized Zodiac’s handwriting, including the uniqueness of its letter forms. The killer crossed his "t" low on the vertical stroke, Cunningham notes, and formed a distinctive "saddle" between the legs of his lowercase "m." He usually left generous spacing between lines, Cunningham says.

Copycat Zodiac missives often can be easy to spot, he says. A tip-off to copied or disguised handwriting is a lack of "fluency," he says.

"There’s a rhythm in writing," he says — when people jot notes or sign documents, they write quickly and confidently. "But if someone tries to copy or disguise their handwriting, it’s no longer spontaneous," he says, and an expert can see signs of the effort in the script.

Soon after he retired, Cunningham says he was brought back into the Zodiac case by the Vallejo police, who were taking a new run at solving the crime. Their suspect was Arthur Leigh Allen, a retired schoolteacher, former mental patient and convicted child molester who had been singled out by Zodiac investigators in the 1970s but was cleared after he passed a lie detector test. Allen, who died in 1992, is still the favorite Zodiac suspect of some experts on the case, including Robert Graysmith, the former Chronicle editorial cartoonist who wrote the book on which the movie was based.

In 1991, police raided Allen’s home in Vallejo and seized a trove of potential evidence, including a box of handwritten letters that spanned 25 years. Cunningham spent days examining them.

"I went through every piece of his known writing and compared it, and I couldn’t find any evidence to link him to the Zodiac writings," Cunningham says.

But police didn’t give up on Allen. They theorized that Allen had committed the Zodiac killings with an accomplice and that the accomplice had written the Zodiac letters. Cunningham says he thought the theory was promising. When police seized specimens of the suspected accomplice’s handwriting, Cunningham believed a break in the case had finally come.

"My heart was going pitter-pat," he says. Then he sat down with the documents.

"We really thought Arthur Leigh Allen did the killings and this guy did the writing," Cunningham says. "I was never so let down — it just wasn’t the guy."

The most recent Zodiac-style document that Cunningham has examined came to him via The Chronicle’s photo archive.

In an envelope of old news photos of the Zodiac case, editorial assistant Daniel King found a Christmas card addressed to The Chronicle and postmarked 1990. The handwriting resembled the Zodiac’s, and the card itself was similar to one the killer is thought to have sent to the newspaper during his killing spree.

No one at the newspaper today remembers receiving the Christmas card or how it came to be put in the Zodiac photo file. The Chronicle gave the card and envelope last week to Vallejo police, the lead agency on the Zodiac murders, and provided Cunningham with scans of the documents.

Cunningham pointed out several similarities between the writing on the envelope and the Zodiac’s script but noted discrepancies as well. More important, he says, the writing looked like it had been done slowly and carefully and in places appeared to have been overwritten.

"The big problem you have here is, why would a person overwrite all of these letters?" he says. "The Zodiac never did that in any of his writings." The overwriting led him to suspect that the writer was copying or tracing the script from another document.

"I could never conclude that this is the writing of the Zodiac," he says. "It tends to lean the other way — I have the impression that someone tried to imitate the Zodiac’s handwriting."

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:32 pm

AK, do we have the FBI page that specifically mentions the opinion of the FBI about the Bleeding Knife letter? I cant seem to find it

AK Wilks: What follows is my original post with an assist from tahoe. I am still troubled by the envelopes, with a zip code and postage due, uncharacteristic of Zodiac. Yet trav and morf and others have pointed out interesting similarities with these Fairfield letters and the Pines card and other Zodiac missives.

I stumbled across something nobody has found.

I was trying to get more information on what the FBI thought of these Fairfield letters.

I found an FBI file were the analyst says that the Belli letter has matches to the 12/7 and 12/16 Fairfield letters, that compared to pre-December Z letters these three have distortion and were not written as freely, but that they have similar characteristics to other Zodiac letters, and that ‘one person may have prepared ALL the threatening letters in this matter.’

A VERY SIGNIFICANT FIND! {Maybe – AK 2013}

The FBI analyst gives the same level of endorsement to the Fairfield letters that he gives to the Belli letter.

Look at pages 64, 65 and 70 here:

http://foia.fbi.gov/zodiac/zodiac3.pdf

Can someone save those and post those pages here?

Thanks!

Here ya go!

PG 64:

PG 65:

PG 70:

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:04 am

So what the analyst stated, was, the Bleeding knife has some distortion,but also some traits similar to other Zodiac letters.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:22 am

That darn "may" word again. I wish they say what the similiar characteristics were…not that we can’t see for ourselves, but it would be nice to read their take on it.

What was Q41? Have we seen that?

Edit: I see we have seen it. The FBI seems to believe the astrology and the Flight 555 stuff aren’t Zodiac.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:07 am

I cannot access any of the FBI files on Zodiac via the links.

Anyone know what Q34 was in regards to AK’s recent post? It states the bleeding knife letter (Q36-38) doesn’t really resemble to the threatening letters prior to Q34, but does bear similarities to Q34 & Q35.

Q34 & 35?

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:18 am

I cannot access any of the FBI files on Zodiac via the links.

Anyone know what Q34 was in regards to AK’s recent post? It states the bleeding knife letter (Q36-38) doesn’t really resemble to the threatening letters prior to Q34, but does bear similarities to Q34 & Q35.

Q34 & 35?

Qc34 Envelope: SF Chronicle, postmarked Fairfield, CA December 7, 1969
Qc35 Letter: "This is the Zodiac speaking-I just need help-I will kill again…I will turn myself in O.K."

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:21 am

I cannot access any of the FBI files on Zodiac via the links.

Anyone know what Q34 was in regards to AK’s recent post? It states the bleeding knife letter (Q36-38) doesn’t really resemble to the threatening letters prior to Q34, but does bear similarities to Q34 & Q35.

Q34 & 35?

Qc34 Envelope: SF Chronicle, postmarked Fairfield, CA December 7, 1969
Qc35 Letter: "This is the Zodiac speaking-I just need help-I will kill again…I will turn myself in O.K."

Yep Zam got it. Q35 is the letter postmarked 12/7/69 Fairfield that contains the lines noted by Zam above, also it has a short cipher and the line "+ he will be a cop".

Q34 – Q38 are the 12/7/69 and 12/16/69 Fairfield letters and envelopes.

Q43 and Q44 are the Belli letter and envelope of 12/20/69.

The examiner notes that the Fairfield letters AND the Belli letter contain some "distortion" and appear to have been "not written as freely" as prior letters.

But then the examiner notes (on page 65) that the Fairfield letters have characteristics which indicate they "may have been prepared" by the same person who wrote the earlier confirmed Zodiac letters.

Now, just to be fair, and consider all sides, no Fairfield letter appears on the SFPD list of confirmed Zodiac letters. And I don’t know the opinion of California DOJ or Morrill on the Fairfield letters.

The content lacks the tone of previous letters. It seems rushed and not as thought out. It is sort of simple minded and lacks the wit and intelligence of most previous Z letters.

There are clear differences in some of the writing, along with some similarities.

So ultimately, there is evidence to supprt both positions.

And the envelopes from Fairfield have zip codes and are under posted…those are deviations from known Zodiac practices which lean me towards these interesting letters probably being fake.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:37 am

I cannot access any of the FBI files on Zodiac via the links.

Anyone know what Q34 was in regards to AK’s recent post? It states the bleeding knife letter (Q36-38) doesn’t really resemble to the threatening letters prior to Q34, but does bear similarities to Q34 & Q35.

Q34 & 35?

Qc34 Envelope: SF Chronicle, postmarked Fairfield, CA December 7, 1969
Qc35 Letter: "This is the Zodiac speaking-I just need help-I will kill again…I will turn myself in O.K."

Thanks Zam….and AK

It’s this one. And I could see why they would say that. Look at the "f".

…zodiackillertruth.com

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:49 am

I cannot access any of the FBI files on Zodiac via the links.

Anyone know what Q34 was in regards to AK’s recent post? It states the bleeding knife letter (Q36-38) doesn’t really resemble to the threatening letters prior to Q34, but does bear similarities to Q34 & Q35.

Q34 & 35?

Qc34 Envelope: SF Chronicle, postmarked Fairfield, CA December 7, 1969
Qc35 Letter: "This is the Zodiac speaking-I just need help-I will kill again…I will turn myself in O.K."

Thanks Zam….and AK

It’s this one. And I could see why they would say that. Look at the "f".

…zodiackillertruth.com

TAHOE, this is from Z in my opinion, or a very good copycat. Here’s why-
The lower case G, trails to the left under itself, we have seen that from Z. There are 3 stroke K’s. The lower case J looks like Z. And that F you pointed out, its kind of blurry, but look closely, it looks like these as compared by TRAV-(see green arrow)

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:08 pm

I don’t think it’s even a good copy-cat.

All from Fairfield, and they look alike, but honeslty…do you REALLY think that looks like Zodiac’s writing? ESPECIALLY that envelope?

Morrill must not have put this in the Zodiac catagory.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:55 am

Found the FBI handwriting comp for bleeding knife and state is in trouble letters. I’m particularly impressed with the d and e.

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:23 am

Found the FBI handwriting comp for bleeding knife and state is in trouble letters. I’m particularly impressed with the d and e.

Impressed meaning Zodiac like? I have leaned towards this being possibly from Z,simply because it doesnt look alot like Z at first. If it was a copycat,seems like they would do all they could to make it look identical to Z. Instead,we get a crude drawing,etc

traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:51 am

To each other but not to Z. At least for now it doesn’t strike me as Z.

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:47 am

To each other but not to Z. At least for now it doesn’t strike me as Z.

How about with the letter F? Z used his candy cane F frequently,but he alsoused the weird fancy/flimsy looking F like we see in the bleeding knife letter

traveller1st, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:17 pm

I could probably find reasonable arguments or examples to explain how some of the characters appear similar to Z’s and explain why there are differences. The fact that I would have to approach it like that makes me suspicious enough of it. Considering it pretty much matches the other letter makes it moreso. This shows an example of style being applied across two separate documents which to me is not Z like.

The only style that Z employed consistently in that regard was his own style, the style we are most familiar with. Even if we accept that the questioned ones are Zodiac there wasn’t a re-used style, each one was different whereas here we have two the same.

I haven’t looked at it in detail but, for reasons stated above, it doesn’t feel like Zodiac.

~EDIT: Just to add I really don’t like the d in regards to it being Z. It’s too distinctive and even though it could be argued it’s the same construction it’s really not. There are now 3 instances of this d off the top of my head, the two instances here and the pines card. 3 is a pattern and not just of potential same author but a pattern for that d which makes it very distinctive for me.

Zodiac had already well established an ingrained way of doing his d’s and I can’t see a competing one emerging all of a sudden. Variations possibly but not a new style for that particular character. When I say ingrained I obviously mean used a lot, like everyday. I was reading an article last night in the FBI files where Morrill stated that he was convinced that what we know of as Zodiac’s writing was his actual handwriting due to the high instance of repeated patterns in the characters. So that’s the level of ingrain we’re talking about here yet with this new d we see several instances of it with little or no sign of hesitation in the construction hence the close similarities to each other suggesting that it, itself is an ingrained construction so you would have to have one or the other but not both but here we do have both – we have Zodiac’s d and then this other d.

morf13, Subject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:56 pm

I definitely agree with Morrill, that most of the confirmed Z writing is likely his real everyday printed writing. He wrote way too many pages. For example, the Belli letter starts off as if he is trying to write nice & neat and organized,and by the end, it looks like most of his other writing. And the 6 page letter he wrote,would be hard to disguise 6 pages of writing. Maybe he held the pen a little differently then he did in his normal every day life,or slanted the paper or something along those lines,but I dont think he drastically disquised his writing. Somebody,someplace, has to have read papers or documents written by Z in his normal everyday life, or received letters from him,etc. Surprising nobody ever came forward to say they recognized it.

The "N" in "Chronicle" on the envelope is like the "N" in "ATTN" on the Hautz letter envelope.

@Traveller,

You don’t believe Z could come up with a new style of "d"? Do you disbelieve that he wrote the Count Marco letter? He has many styles, depending on his frame of mind.

@Traveller,

You don’t believe Z could come up with a new style of "d"? Do you disbelieve that he wrote the Count Marco letter? He has many styles, depending on his frame of mind.

I find it less likely. Doesn’t mean he wouldn’t but you have to draw boundaries somewhere or you’d get lost with no direction. Do I think he wrote the Marco letter? I tempted to almost not answer that one lol. Yes, I do think he wrote it, in-fact I’m convinced of it.

viewtopic.php?f=96&t=789

and the desk

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=397

His own writing, and styles, are complicated enough to get one’s head around, which is why I usually include the disclaimer "for now". I don’t discount anything completely. I revisit everything, in time, as I progress with his own writing and what it tells me.

Over at ZK.com, they were disucssing the bleeding knife letter, and there were a couple people that pointed out some interesting things:

NYCDUDE-"Another revelation about this letter that literally made me jump out of bed last night:
If you sum up the numbers from the list of planned murders in various Bay Area locations, you get 38. Quite an arbitrary number, no?
Now look at the undisputed Zodiac letters. From the April 1970 "My Name Is…" bomb diagram onwards we see a gradual increase in Z’s self-proclaimed body count, from "Me = 10" upwards to "Me = 12" on the button letter, to "Me = 13" on the "Little List" letter, and finally the March 1971 L.A. Times letter proclaiming "Me = 17".
The next time we see a body count proclaimed by Z, he has broken a 3 year silence to write the Chronicle and proclaim "Me = 37". Quite a jump, and to quite an arbitrary number once again, isn’t it?
Perhaps he is alluding to his previous plans and is saying "I’m one kill away, now’s the chance to finally get me"?
I’ve always believed that Z included small clues (such as double postage) to authenticate his messages. This is why I also believe the 1990 Eureka postcard is legit (due to the zip code reminder postmark and the use of "secret pal" on the greeting card)."

Also from NYCDUDE-
"One thing that stands out to me about the dripping knife letter… The use of ditto marks, which would soon appear on the April 1970 "My Name Is…" Bomb Diagram.
I’m not sure how common the usage of ditto marks were in the pre-computers era. But to the best of my recollection Z hadn’t used them in any previous communications.
So logically, one has to note the coincidence of these two usages, roughly 6 months apart, with neither party (assuming the dripping knife author isn’t Z) knowing about the other’s letter.
To me, it lends more credence to this letter being legit. The hyperbolic use of exclamations and crude drawings doesn’t seem too out of place if you consider the other deviations Z made in his past correspondence (tight penmanship at some times, sloppier, looser lines at others, exaggerated crosshair symbols etc.)."

i have looked at morfs post like this for some time without comment (great job as usual morf even though i remained silent)..I am simply not sure of any explicit link to Z in some of these letters..but i get an eerie feeling about them and in some cases my eyes say they could be Z..my gut says copycat but I just cant get over the feeling that they may indeed be Z..this is why i never gamble..should i play the red or the black on the roulette wheel and every time I am sitting on 15 and ask for another card i bust out over 21…