I’m not even going to bother to refute this. What I have said is not a matter of subjective opinion, it is publicly available factual information about schizophrenia that has been widely understood for nearly half a century. The dopamine hypotheses is the most widely excepted model. I’m not going to debate it’s validity, or quibble over what other parts of the brain may be involved, I already said the exact biological mechanism isn’t fully understood. As for biological tests, it’s true there isn’t a simple blood test that can diagnose someone with schizophrenia, but that doesn’t mean the dopamine hypotheses hasn’t been tested. The entire field of antipsychotics is based on it.
The above comment stated, "the unwanted parts of the self are the base of the delusional thinking and hallucinations", this absolutely implies that the individual is either purposely trying to hide away from themselves, or is following a learnt behavioral response. It doesn’t take a genius to read between the lines and see that the comment is implying awareness, and behavior. This is extremely offensive. If you take a hallucinogenic drug, your mood and attitude may in some small way effect the trip, but the trip itself is entirely involuntary.
Look, I know I sound pedantic. I’m just really upset by the suggestion that hallucinations are caused by anything other than the brain have a major involuntary malfunction. Everyday I deal with people slyly trying to imply that major psychiatric disorders like schizophrenia and bipolar are either behavioral, rooted in childhood trauma, psychosomatic, or just in whatever way they can possibly find that will imply the individual in question is somehow able to either control, or influence their illness. I’m not suggesting that external factors have absolutely zero effect on those two illnesses, but the effect is so negligible, and it is just so offensive and dangerous to imply otherwise. People just cannot accept that the brain can malfunction and produce phenomena beyond our control. We are terrified of loosing control. Talk therapies have negligible effects on schizophrenia, beyond improving outlook, which again further demonstrates that it is biological phenomena.
Anyway, I’m sorry I got upset. Please, this subject does not require talent to understand, there are thousands of excellent books on the subject, and endless reams of case studies that you can read on the subject. I am confident that any good source will support the factual validity of what I have said, with the caveat that I have simplified much of the information and I may have forgotten a few of the finer details. Anyway, just Google it. If you don’t believe Grande, Google what he said. What Grande says in the video, and I know he got some of the case facts wrong, but what he said about the psychological profile is extremely sound and based not only on the absolute latest and most up to date scientific understandings, it also strongly supported by statistics. Based on statistics alone, Zodiac almost certainly has a type B personality disorder and having a type B personality disorder increases the odds of having a type A Personality Disorder.
Where I differ from Grande, is that I think the Zodiac demonstrated a lot of really bizarre behavior that I believe points pretty strongly to a type A personality disorder. I’m not saying it wasn’t voluntary, I think he chose to appear insane, and I think he chose to wear a silly costume to the lake, but when you look at the totality of his eccentric behavior and consider that most serial killers have antisocial personality disorder and consider that this gives him a statistically higher chance of having either schizoid, or schizotypal personality disorder, you start to see why I think the odds are pretty favorable. Murdering people in a costume is bizarre and eccentric regardless of whether, or not it was done on purpose, intentionally, with the specific goal of making people think you are crazy. Doing something like that to make people think you are crazy, is kind of exactly what a crazy person would do. Do you see my logic? A schizophrenic wouldn’t do this on purpose, but a person with schizotypal personality disorder very well could. The best real world example I can think of is Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong. Obviously Armstrong carefully planned out the collar bomb heist, but her plan was fundamentally bat-poop-insane. So too, the Zodiac may have intentionally planned out his attacks, but they are still highly bizarre. You can see for all of Armstrong’s brilliance and cleverness, her plan was insane to most normal people. The Zodiac is exactly the same. Sure, it might be all part of his master plan, but the master plan itself reeks of insanity, it is bizarre, it is odd, it is eccentric to the most extreme degree.
Stop watching Dr Grande, Zodiac is better explained with Personality disorder type B, this is a woeful assessment.
Dr Grande hypothetically diagnosed Zodiac with narcissistic personality disorder, a cluster B disorder, alongside antisocial and schizotypal.
Where I differ from Grande, is that I think the Zodiac demonstrated incredibly bizarre behavior. I’m not saying it wasn’t voluntary, I think he chose to appear insane, and I think he chose to wear a silly costume to the lake, but when you look at the totality of his eccentric behavior and consider that most serial killers have antisocial personality disorder and consider that this gives him a statistically higher chance of having either schizoid, or schizotypal personality disorder, you start to see why I think the odds are pretty favorable.
For me the costume is the strongest suggestion that he was genuinely delusional in some way.
Stop watching Dr Grande, Zodiac is better explained with Personality disorder type B, this is a woeful assessment.
Dr Grande hypothetically diagnosed Zodiac with narcissistic personality disorder, a cluster B disorder, alongside antisocial and schizotypal.
That’s right. Personality disorders do tend to have a lot of overlap though, perhaps more so than just about any other psychiatric condition. It is common to diagnose more than one in a single patient. Over the years they have been combined and separated them many times and there is much debate over how to tease them apart. I’m satisfied with narcissistic personality disorder, it may well be a better fit than schizotypal. The point I am trying to make is that there is a fair chance he had some type of cluster A personality disorder as well, which I think can account for the "bizarre" behavior. I favor schizotypal, but only by a slim margin, and I’m also quite satisfied to say cluster B and leave it at that, since as Dr. Grande would say, "I’m only speculating".
For me the costume is the strongest suggestion that he was genuinely delusional in some way.
I know right? I mean, what kind of mind would do this? Sure, its intentional, but it’s just so freaking bizarre.
Again, I ask, just for fun, can anyone name a serial killer that was not eccentric?
Here is A Quote from another threated regarding Z and his possible link to schizotypal .
clearly when someone with schizotypal personality disorder becomes violent or fixates on something that is violent, that violence is marked by very bizarre behavior.
The wearing of a costume (hiding ones faces in broad daylight) is not something a deluded person would do. It being late 60’s I doubt balaclava’s were something readily bought and explains why he made the infamous hood, a crazy person is one that doesn’t conceal his face. Concealing of the face demonstrates a clear understanding of what he was doing, that it was wrong, that it came with sever ramifications.
The above comment stated, "the unwanted parts of the self are the base of the delusional thinking and hallucinations", this absolutely implies that the individual is either purposely trying to hide away from themselves, or is following a learnt behavioral response. It doesn’t take a genius to read between the lines and see that the comment is implying awareness, and behavior. This is extremely offensive. If you take a hallucinogenic drug, your mood and attitude may in some small way effect the trip, but the trip itself is entirely involuntary.
Look, I know I sound pedantic. I’m just really upset by the suggestion that hallucinations are caused by anything other than the brain have a major involuntary malfunction. Everyday I deal with people slyly trying to imply that major psychiatric disorders like schizophrenia and bipolar are either behavioral, rooted in childhood trauma, psychosomatic, or just in whatever way they can possibly find that will imply the individual in question is somehow able to either control, or influence their illness. I’m not suggesting that external factors have absolutely zero effect on those two illnesses, but the effect is so negligible, and it is just so offensive and dangerous to imply otherwise. People just cannot accept that the brain can malfunction and produce phenomena beyond our control. We are terrified of loosing control. Talk therapies have negligible effects on schizophrenia, beyond improving outlook, which again further demonstrates that it is biological phenomena.
I read the same thing you did and I did not interpret it in the manner that you are.
The comment is about the awareness the sufferer of schizophrenia endures after the event when they are normal once more. They most certainly shy away from the events that occurred and "forget" so much so that those with schizophrenia are notoriously bad with adherence to their medications, why? because they are separating themselves from the events, they lack awareness to their disorder. Miem displays perfect knowledge from someone that works with those with schizophrenia.
I understand. I’m in a bad mood, we’ve just been plunged into another lockdown, and I get prickly about mental health issues.
I’m not an expert, but to the best of my extensive first hand experience that’s not how anosognosia works in schizophrenia and I really aught to know. There perception of reality is genuinely and sincerely compromised. Many of them genuinely and sincerely cannot tell that what they’re experiencing isn’t reality, because they are truly experiencing it. Anyone who genuinely interacts with schizophrenics would be fully aware of this.
As for the costume, I suppose it is subjective, but I’m amazed that anyone would think it anything other than bizzarre for a criminal to hand stitch a disguise, including his own criminal logo, a logo which in itself is bizzarre, solely for the purpose of hiding his face. There were absolutely ski masks and any number of other options available at the time. His entire persona and all of his actions are bizarre, odd and eccentric. He didn’t need to do any of these things in order to be a serial killer.
I understand. I’m in a bad mood, we’ve just been plunged into another lockdown, and I get prickly about mental health issues.
I’m not an expert, but to the best of my extensive first hand experience that’s not how anosognosia works in schizophrenia and I really aught to know. There perception of reality is genuinely and sincerely compromised. Many of them genuinely and sincerely cannot tell that what they’re experiencing isn’t reality, because they are truly experiencing it. Anyone who genuinely interacts with schizophrenics would be fully aware of this.
As for the costume, I suppose it is subjective, but I’m amazed that anyone would think it anything other than bizzarre for a criminal to hand stitch a disguise, including his own criminal logo, a logo which in itself is bizzarre, solely for the purpose of hiding his face. There were absolutely ski masks and any number of other options available at the time. His entire persona and all of his actions are bizarre, odd and eccentric. He didn’t need to do any of these things in order to be a serial killer.
All good I am no expert either, Our information regarding the Zodiac is limited.
Regarding anosognosia, with out going to my books its mode is via physical changes that occur in the brains of schizophrenics.
A example of what Miem is talking about would be the individual recalling the events during a episode, realising the absurdity of that episode with logic and then essentially dismissing or distancing themselves from that event as its illogical.
Regarding the masking, logo etc, this is what makes the zodiac such a oddball, his personality disorders is off the charts extreme in many regards and I feel it is readily explained in this manner. Schizophrenia is a really diverse subject and personality disorders like this will likely be seen in future as being within the "spectrum of schizophrenia" that is these disorders all relate to dysregulation in different regions of the brain, this is why it is so hard to distinguish these matters.
I’m not even going to bother to refute this. What I have said is not a matter of subjective opinion, it is publicly available factual information about schizophrenia that has been widely understood for nearly half a century. The dopamine hypotheses is the most widely excepted model. I’m not going to debate it’s validity, or quibble over what other parts of the brain may be involved, I already said the exact biological mechanism isn’t fully understood. As for biological tests, it’s true there isn’t a simple blood test that can diagnose someone with schizophrenia, but that doesn’t mean the dopamine hypotheses hasn’t been tested. The entire field of antipsychotics is based on it.
The above comment stated, "the unwanted parts of the self are the base of the delusional thinking and hallucinations", this absolutely implies that the individual is either purposely trying to hide away from themselves, or is following a learnt behavioral response. It doesn’t take a genius to read between the lines and see that the comment is implying awareness, and behavior. This is extremely offensive. If you take a hallucinogenic drug, your mood and attitude may in some small way effect the trip, but the trip itself is entirely involuntary.
Look, I know I sound pedantic. I’m just really upset by the suggestion that hallucinations are caused by anything other than the brain have a major involuntary malfunction. Everyday I deal with people slyly trying to imply that major psychiatric disorders like schizophrenia and bipolar are either behavioral, rooted in childhood trauma, psychosomatic, or just in whatever way they can possibly find that will imply the individual in question is somehow able to either control, or influence their illness. I’m not suggesting that external factors have absolutely zero effect on those two illnesses, but the effect is so negligible, and it is just so offensive and dangerous to imply otherwise. People just cannot accept that the brain can malfunction and produce phenomena beyond our control. We are terrified of loosing control. Talk therapies have negligible effects on schizophrenia, beyond improving outlook, which again further demonstrates that it is biological phenomena.
Anyway, I’m sorry I got upset. Please, this subject does not require talent to understand, there are thousands of excellent books on the subject, and endless reams of case studies that you can read on the subject. I am confident that any good source will support the factual validity of what I have said, with the caveat that I have simplified much of the information and I may have forgotten a few of the finer details. Anyway, just Google it. If you don’t believe Grande, Google what he said. What Grande says in the video, and I know he got some of the case facts wrong, but what he said about the psychological profile is extremely sound and based not only on the absolute latest and most up to date scientific understandings, it also strongly supported by statistics. Based on statistics alone, Zodiac almost certainly has a type B personality disorder and having a type B personality disorder increases the odds of having a type A Personality Disorder.
Where I differ from Grande, is that I think the Zodiac demonstrated a lot of really bizarre behavior that I believe points pretty strongly to a type A personality disorder. I’m not saying it wasn’t voluntary, I think he chose to appear insane, and I think he chose to wear a silly costume to the lake, but when you look at the totality of his eccentric behavior and consider that most serial killers have antisocial personality disorder and consider that this gives him a statistically higher chance of having either schizoid, or schizotypal personality disorder, you start to see why I think the odds are pretty favorable. Murdering people in a costume is bizarre and eccentric regardless of whether, or not it was done on purpose, intentionally, with the specific goal of making people think you are crazy. Doing something like that to make people think you are crazy, is kind of exactly what a crazy person would do. Do you see my logic? A schizophrenic wouldn’t do this on purpose, but a person with schizotypal personality disorder very well could. The best real world example I can think of is Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong. Obviously Armstrong carefully planned out the collar bomb heist, but her plan was fundamentally bat-poop-insane. So too, the Zodiac may have intentionally planned out his attacks, but they are still highly bizarre. You can see for all of Armstrong’s brilliance and cleverness, her plan was insane to most normal people. The Zodiac is exactly the same. Sure, it might be all part of his master plan, but the master plan itself reeks of insanity, it is bizarre, it is odd, it is eccentric to the most extreme degree.
Liked this
The above comment stated, "the unwanted parts of the self are the base of the delusional thinking and hallucinations", this absolutely implies that the individual is either purposely trying to hide away from themselves, or is following a learnt behavioral response. It doesn’t take a genius to read between the lines and see that the comment is implying awareness, and behavior. This is extremely offensive. If you take a hallucinogenic drug, your mood and attitude may in some small way effect the trip, but the trip itself is entirely involuntary.
I think you have misinterpreted me completely. I don’t say anything about what causes schizophrenia, I really don’t know enough about the biological aspect to make any statements on that whatsoever. I also don’t imply the person is actively trying to hide those parts.
I talk about how the positive symptoms show. People do project an unwanted part of themselves into the real world. It is not like people just get random positive symptoms, they are based on the experiences someone has.
Checks this one out……Interview with a Paranoid Schizophrenic.
This guy is also my new suspect….amazing how those horn rimmed glasses make anybody look like a zodiac suspect.
Mah-na Mah-na
The above comment stated, "the unwanted parts of the self are the base of the delusional thinking and hallucinations", this absolutely implies that the individual is either purposely trying to hide away from themselves, or is following a learnt behavioral response. It doesn’t take a genius to read between the lines and see that the comment is implying awareness, and behavior. This is extremely offensive. If you take a hallucinogenic drug, your mood and attitude may in some small way effect the trip, but the trip itself is entirely involuntary.
I think you have misinterpreted me completely. I don’t say anything about what causes schizophrenia, I really don’t know enough about the biological aspect to make any statements on that whatsoever. I also don’t imply the person is actively trying to hide those parts.
I talk about how the positive symptoms show. People do project an unwanted part of themselves into the real world. It is not like people just get random positive symptoms, they are based on the experiences someone has.
Sure you’re not back pedaling? Alright, I accept your explanation, I shouldn’t be so grumpy. Not sure if I agree with the idea that
they are based on the experiences someone has.
, sometimes, but in my experience, schizophrenics positive symptoms are frequently extremely random. Depends on the severity, but schizophreni is very serious, and the origins of many of the delusions are really quite inscrutable.
Anyway, I don’t think the Zodiac killer is very likely to have had full blown schizophrenia. It is very debilitating.
I believe that the overwhelming majority of reports of so called "normal behavior" from serial killers, that is friends and family reporting that the individual was otherwise a "very normal fellow", and expressing shock upon discovering the dark nature of their activities, can be explained by nothing more than gross neglect on the part of family members and friends. The idea that someone with a anti-social personality disorder could go unnoticed by family members says far more about the actions and credibility and even the mental stability of their family members, than it does about the behavior of the individual in question.
When serial killers are bought before courts and have their insanity pleas rejected by the judge, the media often reports this as proof positive that the killer is "just like you and I". Just because someone doesn’t meet the high legal standard of insanity, doesn’t mean they’re totally ordinary.
I think too, for the purposes of criminal profiling, you have to remember you’re not a doctor trying to determine if someone meets some clinical benchmark for a specific diagnosis. Doctors often approach treatment by treating the diagnosis, not the symptoms. They have to make difficult decisions, sometimes about potentially risky treatments, so they have to be pretty damn sure the patient is correctly diagnosed. We don’t have to worry about any of that. We’re not here to prove the Zodiac specifically had schizotypal personality disorder according to the precise diagnostic criteria set out in some book. Instead we have the luxury of being free to focus only on traits. It is sufficient for a criminal profile to simply state that Zodiac would in all likelihood score higher than the general population in a test that screens for schizoid traits. We don’t have to worry about whether, or not he meets the full diagnostic benchmark, which could be quite a high bar. The point being, if you have a suspect, that you have thoroughly scrutinized, where you have interviewed work colleagues, family, friends etc, and none of them have reported a single unusual trait, or instance of odd behavior, in my opinion this individual is probably not the Zodiac. Whoever the Zodiac was, you should be able to find at least some evidence of strange behavior under scrutiny.
Ted Bundy was one such killer that people often liked to say seemed like "such a nice, normal guy". Yet over the years and when scrutinized closely, we see many instances of extremely bizarre behavior in Bundy’s life. At the time of his arrest ex-girlfriends where quoted by the media as saying he was quite normal, yet years later many of the same girlfriends were able to recount many strange stories from Bundy’s life.
The superficial normalcy of a serial killer, never holds up under scrutiny.
Maybe I’m wrong, but I just think society gets funny when it comes to criminals and mental illness. We’re happy to call them insane when we first see the news report, but the moment it goes to trial, we suddenly get worried that they might "get away" with it, and all those deeply ingrained values like justice and "taking personal responsibility" cloud our ability to see that the person standing before the judge is often nothing short of a total space cadet. We don’t want these "psychos" on the streets, so we convince ourselves they’re sane. That might be a hyperbolic way of putting it, I’m sure there is a middle ground, but we’re not always very objective when justice is on the line.
For me the costume is the strongest suggestion that he was genuinely delusional in some way.
I know right? I mean, what kind of mind would do this? Sure, its intentional, but it’s just so freaking bizarre.
It occurred to me that the Lake Berryessa costume was quite similar to the costumes donned by the Ku Klux Klan, the white hoods embossed with crosses. On the face of it the KKK looked ridiculous, but they instilled fear into their victims and we remember their costumes as infamous symbols of violent racism.
Zodiac’s costume may have looked clownish but I’m sure any of us would have an unamused reaction if we were confronted with a gun-wielding maniac dressed that way. This might be a logical explanation for the costume that doesn’t necessitate a delusional mental illness. The calculated intent to terrify his victims as a means of entrapping them.
The average Zodiac suspect never receives the level of scrutiny that Bundy was subjected to. Only Allen comes close. And Bundy was an extreme outlier, even in that particular niche of a niche.
Zodiac was too functional to be schizophrenic.
More likely he was a sadistic sociopath. His ‘paradice/slaves’ rant was just spooky gobbledygook.
That was too much!
