I’m going to express my thoughts on the desktop poem, and I never have publicly.
First thing is I don’t believe that Zodiac killed Cheri Jo Bates. Who did is another topic.
Second thing is the desktop poem. I’ve always felt that this was a spurious piece of "evidence" if there ever was one. It was "found" by a janitor in a storage shed. I don’t doubt this at all, but how did the janitor actually think that this wasn’t just some teenage ramblings and why did he even bring it to the attention of the school/authorities? You need to ask yourselves this question. Why wasn’t it discovered after the crime? Didn’t the police look through the library or one of the librarians bring "that weird desktop poem" to the detectives attention?
This desktop poem has taken on a life of its own – being a de facto piece of evidence over the years, a permanent fixture in the minds of all Zodiac researchers. Am I not right? You need to ask yourself why (if I were you) considering it’s early beginnings and prominent place in Graysmith’s "Zodiac Book" we’ve all sort of been lulled into the belief that this IS IN FACT EVIDENCE! People really questioning it, trying to find out who "rh" is, etc. All noble endeavors, but down the wrong path. Same thing with the scrutiny of the Timex watch as well as the Wingwalker shoes.
I’m not going to disparage Sherwood Morilll’s expertise, but it is my informed and my belief that he first laid eyes on this "evidence" in the 1970’s and that it was only "his opinion" that this "may be Zodiac related" There may have been superiors who deemed it "Zodiac writing", thus a "legend was born"
I don’t believe that Zodiac ever did anything in Riverside other than:
1) Pick out a heinous crime in a city with a water reference
2) Handwrite and mail those 3 letters that we are aware of
3) Type the "confession letter" on teletype paper
4) Sit back and take credit for a crime he didn’t commit and have a chuckle about it (sick bastard that he was)
As some of you know, my POI is Richard Gaikowski and I think that he was very media savvy, reading papers, was an EDITOR (another Zodiac clue on every envelope!) and also had ready access to teletype paper.
It’s much like the notion that when Zodiac wrote:
Me – 37
SFPD – 0
It’s entered into folklore that "Zodiac Claims 37 Victims" or whatever. When or where did Zodiac ever say he killed 37? It’s become a tagline of too many zodiac media stories, news reports and such. "The Zodiac Killer Who Claimed 37 Victims" – you can hear the newspaper man or newscaster saying it now! It’s my belief that it made good "copy" for a story that had gone stale in 1971 or so!
As an aside, my POI was 37 years old in 1/24/1974 and It’s my belief that he was merely dropping yet another "in your face" clue.
The desktop poem, the Timex watch, the wingwalkers, Dee & the "Unknown Man" and the origin of the crossed symbol (a register mark in printing (Gaikowski again) have all been chased after and debated and argued about for many many years. Timex watches were common, having wingwalkers didn’t mean you were in the service, and the unknown man and Dee’s sweater and the bricks in the fireplace all are sidetracks down a very narrow path. A path that really has no room for sidetracks, especially meaningless junk!
Back to the "desktop poem" I personally don’t believe that Zodiac scratched/wrote that "poem" only another sick individual (like Ross Sullivan maybe, I don’t know! My father picked up a pair of used wingwalkers in the Army/Navy surplus store (yes, he still has them) – as returning Vietnam Vets liked to sell or dump their uniforms and misc to Salvation Army/2nd hand stores and the like. Hell, my Dad even owned a Timex watch and was a lithographer (the printing arts) so maybe he is the Zodiac. Oh wait, he didn’t wear horn rimmed glasses.
I guess my bigger message is if we all stopped being bogged down by the minutia and paid close attention to those things we know are truly Zodiac related, we’d all be in a better state of mind and a better team to research.
Yes, I am one of the "Water Reference" believers. My POI was born in Watertown, SD (and may have seen himself as a sort of an anti hero comic book character "Water Man") The fact that all his known crimes have water references shouldn’t escape anyone! Some have taken it too far and said that "he called from the car wash in Napa" and that kind of stuff I don’t give any credence to. But LAKE Herman, Blue Rock SPRINGS, LAKE Berryessa, WASHINGton & Cherry kinda leaves one wondering. Why not kill someone on Pine street, or at Freedom Park or wherever else. I don’t know but it’s compelling to me enough to buy into the h20 aspect. Oh, and I think the 340 is bogus! Oh, any my kudos go out to Tahoe for finding that comic book, which reaffirms my beliefs that Zodiac was comic obsessed!
Like I was saying, I guess my message is to try to stick to the real facts and we should come together as a community and try to research this as a team. At first I thought I was going to post this to the Desktop Poem section, but I’m going to post it in the General section.
Thanks for reading,
Wood
I agree with the Riverside Desktop Poem analysis, in that it is overrated as evidence, but the water connection is as weak as it gets. He more likely chose these areas as he was familiar with them in a hiking and fishing capacity and inevitably have names connected to their location. It could easily be said he chose all four murder sites based on famous people.
Lake Herman Road – Herman Munster, Herman Melville
Blue Rock Springs – Rock Hudson
Lake Berryessa – Chuck Berry
Washington and Maple – George Washington
and besides the Wash or Washing part is stretching it a bit.
You can find many other water based names and are not uncommon.
Zodiac Killer Site is & always has been a community that works together. Not sure why you are saying, we have to become a community that works together? We’ve been a strong community for years, mostly in our private forum & recently opened it to add more minds to our community.
We all have our own thoughts & ideas on the Zodiac case & tend to research & work on things that interest us & also to help other team members. I can’t count how many times I went to Vallejo, Berkerly, San Francisco & etc to pick up material to help other members with their research & I know others that have done the same.
Zam*
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If Zodiac ever joined a Z forum, I’m sure he would have been banned for not following forum rules. Zam’s/Quote
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MODERATOR
Why are we throwing out the bootprints at Berryessa? A trackway leading to the murder site then down to Bryan Hartnell’s car where confirmed Zodiac handwriting was found on the door is hardly spurious evidence. If we insist on dismissing all the physical evidence in these crimes, then there’s no point in bothering to try and solve them.
"There are such devils."
-The Pledge
Why are we throwing out the bootprints at Berryessa? A trackway leading to the murder site then down to Bryan Hartnell’s car where confirmed Zodiac handwriting was found on the door is hardly spurious evidence. If we insist on dismissing all the physical evidence in these crimes, then there’s no point in bothering to try and solve them.
If I had to guess, I would say because Gaik was not a size 10.5 or as I think may be the case size 12" (still can not figure out how a boot that measures 12" next to a ruler is called a 10.5")
I have known WoodenIgloo for a while from the Z scene, and I know how she is sure in her mind that Gaik was Z, but Wood,I have to ask you in all honesty, If Gaik had a verified connection to RCC, tell me honestly you would NOT be linking the desk to Gaik????
This is what I don’t understand, is this ‘pick & choose’ activity among people in the Z case. It’s not just Woodenigloo, but I am just using her post here as an example. So, Morrill was right about the letters mailed from Riverside, but NOT the desktop?? Others think certain letters Morrill confirmed are Zodiac, but some are not. I just don’t get it. And then we are to discount hard evidence like the Wingwalker prints? They lead down to the crime scene and back up to Hartnell’s door. That’s a fact, it’s hard evidence. They also establish Zwas well over 200lbs. By the way, how heavy was Gaik?
There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer
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Why are we throwing out the bootprints at Berryessa? A trackway leading to the murder site then down to Bryan Hartnell’s car where confirmed Zodiac handwriting was found on the door is hardly spurious evidence. If we insist on dismissing all the physical evidence in these crimes, then there’s no point in bothering to try and solve them.
If I had to guess, I would say because Gaik was not a size 10.5 or as I think may be the case size 12" (still can not figure out how a boot that measures 12" next to a ruler is called a 10.5")
Yeah, that’s what I figured.
"There are such devils."
-The Pledge
Others think certain letters Morrill confirmed are Zodiac, but some are not. I just don’t get it. And then we are to discount hard evidence like the Wingwalker prints? They lead down to the crime scene and back up to Hartnell’s door. That’s a fact, it’s hard evidence.
Those who like Ross though Morf dismiss the ’78 letter which Morrill adamantly stated was a Zodiac letter. Morrill confirmed it and you think he was wrong. I don’t mean to call you out, but is this not an example of doing the same thing?
I thought Wood was referring to the boots prints in Riverside…I could be wrong.
I think many with people they find interesting as a possible Zodiac suspect have justifications for their beliefs. If their guy isn’t a big man, they question the validity of the impact prints at LB. Hair, weight, height, shoe size–it will all be (and has been) debated for years. It’s inevitable.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
This conversation reminds me of
as returning Vietnam Vets liked to sell or dump their uniforms and misc to Salvation Army/2nd hand stores and the like
Yep. Which is funny because at PH and LB, the Zodiac was described as wearing old, outdated and even sloppy clothing. Hartnell described him as "low-class" based, at least in part, on his clothing.
Mageau, OTOH, said the guy was wearing a t-shirt, IIRC, so one has to wonder if this guy wore old, "low-class" clothing to certain crime scenes. If so, it would make sense he wore second-hand Wing-Walkers as well.
I actually think that’s the case.
On another note, I can’t even imagine what Hartnell would say about me for not wearing fifty-dollar shirts and designer jeans. Probably think I was "low-class" as well.
It tends to be the same stuff over and over again, that’s for sure. I too am guilty! I just think people give a (somewhat) hard time to each other about their suspects when they in turn do some of the same things.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
Well, folks on the Internet have been discussing the case for fifteen years, at least, with no resolution on even the simplest of matters.
For instance, the Patricia Hautz thing, which I thought was finally and definitively resolved at Mike Butterfield’s old board.
Nope.
Not only are people still dredging her up as the Zodiac in drag, they’re now "investigating" anyone even tangentially related to her, including people with similar names living on the other side of the continent at the time of Bates’ death, instead of just admitting that she had nothing to do with the death of Bates or the Zodiac crimes, and was merely and only some random person who happened to write a letter.
(Sorry for the run-on sentence.)
I actually think that’s the case.
Would be odd if he didn’t, one might even say.
Meaning: Not wingwalkers specifically, but that he put on some old rags before he went on a “mission”, clothes he didn’t normally wear.
Re: Pick and choose, Morrill (again!) and the desktop (again!)
Morrill’s conclusions aren’t factual evidence which must either be recognized or (illogically or inconsistently) ignored or doubted.
It’s a different thing. It isn’t illogical to assume that Morrill was wrong about A but right about B and C. That’s the nature of the business itself.
If you claim that Z was undoubtedly A, because Hartnell says so – but flat out deny that he was B (which is what the PH teens say), then that is pick and choose, that is unreasonable, etc. You can’t treat eyewitness testimony as fact in one case and completely ignore it in the next case.
Handwriting isn’t like that, though.
Besides, Riverside is either a package or several elements which may or may not be connected. I suspect it was treated as the former by the cops back then – and that it was presented as such to Morrill too.
But there’s no reason for us, close to fifty years later, to do the same.
Why are we throwing out the bootprints at Berryessa? A trackway leading to the murder site then down to Bryan Hartnell’s car where confirmed Zodiac handwriting was found on the door is hardly spurious evidence. If we insist on dismissing all the physical evidence in these crimes, then there’s no point in bothering to try and solve them.
We aren’t throwing out bootprints. Only the notion that "Z HAD to have been in the military" mythology. Also, the printing on the car door is definitely Zodiac’s. Where did I say that it wasn’t.
Please re-read my initial post carefully.
Wood
Well, folks on the Internet have been discussing the case for fifteen years, at least, with no resolution on even the simplest of matters.
For instance, the Patricia Hautz thing, which I thought was finally and definitively resolved at Mike Butterfield’s old board.
Nope.
Not only are people still dredging her up as the Zodiac in drag, they’re now "investigating" anyone even tangentially related to her, including people with similar names living on the other side of the continent at the time of Bates’ death, instead of just admitting that she had nothing to do with the death of Bates or the Zodiac crimes, and was merely and only some random person who happened to write a letter.
(Sorry for the run-on sentence.)
Exactly!
Concentrating on whose house (or subdivision) it was that Dee & the Unknown Man had their photo snapped. What does it really matter who made Dee’s sweater?
Concentrate on what we do have and concentrate on the facts, things that are verifiable and legitimate!
By the way, I’ve concentrated my efforts into trying to prove that Richard Gaikowski IS NOT THE ZODIAC! Not the other way around. It’s easier than burden of proof.
Wood
