Thank you all for letting me get that off my chest! I am not as active on the boards as I once was and these little niggling details had built up after a while! Thank you for giving me a fair hearing!

Wood

Thank you all for letting me get that off my chest! I am not as active on the boards as I once was and these little niggling details had built up after a while! Thank you for giving me a fair hearing!

Wood

It’s good to vent every once in a while

There are always going to be 2 sides of the fence when it comes to the Riverside topic. I believe Zodiac authored the confession letter, the handwritten letters, and the desktop poem. I am on the fence as to whether he killed Cheri Jo or not. There will always be a debate about the Riverside stuff,and other evidence in the Z case, etc I think it can all be debated in a positive & friendly way.

Thank you all for letting me get that off my chest! I am not as active on the boards as I once was and these little niggling details had built up after a while! Thank you for giving me a fair hearing!

Wood

It’s good to vent every once in a while

There are always going to be 2 sides of the fence when it comes to the Riverside topic. I believe Zodiac authored the confession letter, the handwritten letters, and the desktop poem. I am on the fence as to whether he killed Cheri Jo or not. There will always be a debate about the Riverside stuff,and other evidence in the Z case, etc I think it can all be debated in a positive & friendly way.

Yep, positive and friendly exchanges are always good!!

Others think certain letters Morrill confirmed are Zodiac, but some are not. I just don’t get it. And then we are to discount hard evidence like the Wingwalker prints? They lead down to the crime scene and back up to Hartnell’s door. That’s a fact, it’s hard evidence.

Those who like Ross though Morf dismiss the ’78 letter which Morrill adamantly stated was a Zodiac letter. Morrill confirmed it and you think he was wrong. I don’t mean to call you out, but is this not an example of doing the same thing?

Good point! How many proposed Zodiac letters did Morrill decline to authenticate? To me at least, it seems he was very willing to attribute letters to Zodiac. I would be curious to see which, if any letters, that he deemed were not written by Zodiac.

Why are we throwing out the bootprints at Berryessa? A trackway leading to the murder site then down to Bryan Hartnell’s car where confirmed Zodiac handwriting was found on the door is hardly spurious evidence. If we insist on dismissing all the physical evidence in these crimes, then there’s no point in bothering to try and solve them.

We aren’t throwing out bootprints. Only the notion that "Z HAD to have been in the military" mythology. Also, the printing on the car door is definitely Zodiac’s. Where did I say that it wasn’t.

Please re-read my initial post carefully.

Wood

I don’t think Zodiac had to be Military to wear Wingwalkers. He could have got them thru a military surplus store, worked as a Civilian around planes, etc

I also read somewhere that the soles used by Wingwalkers were not exclusively used by that brand. Many shoes, including law enforcement boots and engineering shoes also used that sole pattern. It was just that Wingwalkers were the most common brand of shoe that used that particular sole design. We could be barking up the wrong tree by assuming that the sole prints were only from wingwalker boots or that those boots were predominantly used by military personnel.

I always get stuck on the CJB case. When I look at it I just have this gut feeling that the viciousness if her murder doesn’t fit with the Zodiac. Not that his killing weren’t vicious and cruel, but hers seemed to be extremely personal and full of rage/anger. The confirmed Z murders, while violent and cold, seemed to lack a personal rage toward the victims themselves. They were simply a means to his end and had an indifference to them personally. CJB seemed very personal to her.
The confession letter and the "bates had to die" letters on the other hand, seem to fit Z’s style like a puzzle piece. This is what is so confusing to a lot of us who aren’t experts but know the case fairly well.
The Riverside letters look like Z, sound like Z, feel like Z. But the murder does not. Which also fits Z’s style of taking credit for something he didn’t do.
The Domingo’s/Eduards, the newlyweds in San Diego, the cabbie in Oceanside, these look, sound and feel like Z. Even though he stated that when he committed the LHR attack was when he started "his collection of slaves".
Part of Zodiacs persona, was his mastery of confusion and chaos. He seemed clumsy and unorganized, yet he killed and fled with great efficiency and perhaps a touch of luck. He claimed victims that we know we’re lies. He created so much confusion that some of his confirmed murders are questioned as copycats.
I feel that in all of this chaos, everything starts to look like Z. The desktop poem, Santa Rosa Hitchhikers, all of the unconfirmed zodiac letters, etc. When you are a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail, so to speak.

Well Ms. Bates could have been personal for him. I don’t get the impression that he is truly devoid of emotion.

Also, hers could have appeared personal because she fought back. There can be an escalation of aggression, anger, violence. And it can be exacerbated by the adrenaline from both parties. Her injuries could have a cumulative effect.

I really hope that you are right Blem. If CJB was a Zodiac murder, then there is perhaps MUCH more evidence than any of the confirmed Bay area attacks. I have heard Tom Voight and Morph and others say that there is movement in both cases, perhaps a definitive link being examined.
If CJB is really Z, that evidence in that case may prove to be what is needed to finally solve and put this case to rest once and for all.

To me, Zodiac shows he learned things with every murder. For Cheri Jo, outside of the strong evidence of the letters (the envelopes particularly are strong for me with double stamps and instructions to departments – as well as the simultaneously mailed taunting letters to multiple places), working backward, in my opinion, you can see him implement things in the following murders that he very well could have learned through CJB, and it fits well with that. He goes away from stabbing, only returning to it when he could control it. The locations become much farther out in controllable spots until the Presidio Heights. One thing about the costume at Berryessa is that it could very well have been an attempt to keep blood off of him because he knew he would be stabbing people and had experienced the blood flow before. He uses the flashlight contraption to make sure he can see in the dark. It’s possible whoever killed Cheri wasn’t sure she was dead because it would have been very dark in that alley (and if the desktop poem was indeed the killer than it could be referring to that). Z had to learn those things somewhere because he seemed prepared. As far as things that fit, among some others, at least according to the letter, he had some kind of cordial conversation that stopped on a dime and became violent, like with Berryessa. I think there is room to question whether it was truly Z but I personally see a lot of indicators it was him.

To me, Zodiac shows he learned things with every murder. For Cheri Jo, outside of the strong evidence of the letters (the envelopes particularly are strong for me with double stamps and instructions to departments – as well as the simultaneously mailed taunting letters to multiple places), working backward, in my opinion, you can see him implement things in the following murders that he very well could have learned through CJB, and it fits well with that. He goes away from stabbing, only returning to it when he could control it. The locations become much farther out in controllable spots until the Presidio Heights. One thing about the costume at Berryessa is that it could very well have been an attempt to keep blood off of him because he knew he would be stabbing people and had experienced the blood flow before. He uses the flashlight contraption to make sure he can see in the dark. It’s possible whoever killed Cheri wasn’t sure she was dead because it would have been very dark in that alley (and if the desktop poem was indeed the killer than it could be referring to that). Z had to learn those things somewhere because he seemed prepared. As far as things that fit, among some others, at least according to the letter, he had some kind of cordial conversation that stopped on a dime and became violent, like with Berryessa. I think there is room to question whether it was truly Z but I personally see a lot of indicators it was him.

One thing he learned, if CBJ is a Zodiac murder, is not to attack someone that can fight back. Bates had heart.