I’m asking what makes a welsh person welsh-looking.

Can someone smarten me up?

What made him look welsh? hair color? shape of head? what were nose, ears, eyes, mouth like?

Details people!

We’ve been through this on here many times over the years and are none the wiser really. I’m Welsh and most of my close friends are Welsh and we generally look completely different. If I use my immediate circle of close friends as an example, our heights range from about 5’6” to 6’5”, our hair is either black, brown, blonde or reddish and body types encompass skinny, athletic, muscular and overweight. Complexions run from pale (the red haired one!) to tanned olive skin.

In terms of generalising, if a witness said African, you’d assume dark skin and dark hair. If they said Asian – dark hair and maybe slighter built? Nordic/Scandinavian would perhaps be blonde haired / blue eyed. Not sure Welsh (like English, American, etc) could be narrowed down to one look. Only possibility would be an ancient Celtic stereotypical look which would be lighter eyes and maybe reddish hair – could he have meant this? It would apply to Irish and Scottish too though along with some parts of England.

Seem to remember Foukes mentioning his Welsh father-in-law along with Z reminding him of a Welsh coal miner so I’d be guessing this idea came from perhaps Z having a stocky, barrel chested powerful body shape of a manual labourer / rugby player rather than having a particular shape of eyes, ears, etc?

Donald Fouke said Zodiac had a widow’s peak with receding hairlines.

Foulke never said that Zodiac had a widow’s peak nor had receding hairlines. This is Foulke’s description:

“The suspect that was observed by officer Fouke was a WMA 35-45 Yrs about five-foot, ten inches, 180-200 pounds. Medium heavy build- Barrel chested- Medium complexion- Light-colored hair possibly greying in rear (May have been lighting that caused this effect.) Crew cut- wearing glasses- Dressed in dark blue waist length zipper type jacket (Navy or royal blue) Elastic cuffs and waist band zipped part way up. Brown wool pants pleated type baggy in rear (Rust brown) May have been wearing low cut shoes. Subject at no time appeared to be in a hurry walking with a shuffling lope, Slightly bent forward. The subject’s general appearance- Welsh ancestry.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FNkQ5hyxY

32:20: Donald Foulke himself: Zodiac had a widow’s peak, hair coming in the center more and receding on both sides of the forehead.

Well, I can certainly add this to the compilation.

Still, I have always found the "widow’s peak" detail to be highly suspect. Foulke never mentions it in his original memo. It’s not mentioned in the description under the widely distributed sketch at the time. The original sketch never had a widow’s peak, and the updated sketch barely hints at one.

In fact, Foulke never mentions it until 40 years after the fact. Just seems fishy to me personally.

Well, I can certainly add this to the compilation.

Still, I have always found the "widow’s peak" detail to be highly suspect. Foulke never mentions it in his original memo. It’s not mentioned in the description under the widely distributed sketch at the time. The original sketch never had a widow’s peak, and the updated sketch barely hints at one.

In fact, Foulke never mentions it until 40 years after the fact. Just seems fishy to me personally.

that’s a persistent variable in any of the witness descriptions – which do you give more credence – the description at the time of the crime or the description years or decades later? i always lean towards what they say they saw in the moment (three kids describing stine’s murderer to le, hartnell’s description in the police report, etc). the problem with fouke is even the "initial" report of what he saw was made almost a month later. to me, the best description of zodiac is the three kids at the stine scene – they weren’t involved in the attack so they weren’t in a fight or flight situation, they got a pretty good look at him, and they reported what they saw the same night as the attack. mageau didn’t see much, and hartnell is describing what he saw after being attacked and almost killed, plus the killer was wearing a mask. fouke waits a month for whatever reason. i don’t think kathleen johns was with the zodiac. the three girls at lb may or may not have seen zodiac.

to me, the best description of zodiac is the three kids at the stine scene – they weren’t involved in the attack so they weren’t in a fight or flight situation, they got a pretty good look at him, and they reported what they saw the same night as the attack.

I’m going to post this photograph again. It’s from Richard’s zodiacciphers.com. It is a view from the window where the Robbins kids witnessed the Stine aftermath. You can see how far away they actually are. Add in the fact that it was night time with a bit of fog, and their view becomes even worse.

to me, the best description of zodiac is the three kids at the stine scene – they weren’t involved in the attack so they weren’t in a fight or flight situation, they got a pretty good look at him, and they reported what they saw the same night as the attack.

I’m going to post this photograph again. It’s from Richard’s zodiacciphers.com. It is a view from the window where the Robbins kids witnessed the Stine aftermath. You can see how far away they actually are. Add in the fact that it was night time with a bit of fog, and their view becomes even worse.

I’m sorry but the photo makes it looks like they was watching on the moon. I’m sure they seen it much closer in person.

Ha! Well, I don’t know what to tell you. That’s the photograph from the window. To my knowledge, it has not been altered in anyway. They were three stories up which is anywhere from 33 to 45 feet. So, let’s be conservative and say 35 feet. The distance from one side of the street to the other was between 50 and 60, so let’s be fair and say 55 feet. Using basic math, that would make the distance from Stine’s taxi to the children in the third floor as 65 feet (21 yards, 19 meters). That looks about right to me.

Also, a third story could be as high as 45 feet. If that were the case then maximum distance from the Robbins to Zodiac would be approximately 75 feet (25 yards, 23 meters).

In summary, the distance of observation of the Robbins kids from Stine’s taxi would fall somewhere between 60 and 75 feet (20 – 25 yards, 19 to 23 meters). At night. Partially obscured by fog.

That’s a pretty low quality photo.

I’m not convinced, I’m looking out a window right now across and ordinary two lane street, total distance 20m and I can see the cars just fine. I don’t see how this is controversial.

That’s a pretty low quality photo.

I’m not convinced, I’m looking out a window right now across and ordinary two lane street, total distance 20m and I can see the cars just fine. I don’t see how this is controversial.

I’m not sure what you’re not convinced about? Again, this is a picture from the third story window looking down at the intersection of Washington and Cherry where Stine’s cab would have been parked. I’m sorry if it somehow puts a monkey wrench in your theory, but it is what it is.

Perhaps, Richard can come in and provide some more context.

didn’t they run downstairs after seeing the initial interaction, and see zodiac walking away? i’ll still take what they saw over two people who were ambushed and almost killed, one while zodiac wore a hood.

you could even break it down to say mageau got a sense of his mannerisms but not much of a look at his physical composition, hartnell probably is the best judge of his height/weight and diction but nothing compelling about him physically (sure, maybe the hair and that he wore glasses but we know even that is controversial), and the three kids probably have the best vantage for giving a composite of him. for me, fouke detracts from this. he waits a month to describe the perp and the particulars of his story are suspect. i don’t think kathleen johns has anything to do with zodiac. the three girls at lb are giving a description of someone they saw in passing that only hours or days later potentially had any significance.

the three sf kids knew they were seeing an assault but weren’t in that fight or flight position that a victim would be, so 50 feet away or not i still think their description is probably the most valid.

Agreed. I’m not discounting the Robbins description, but I think their is a mistaken notion that they were up close and personal with the Zodiac. The picture makes it clear they were not.

I have added a better picture of the view they had. Thank you, Richard.

Agreed. I’m not discounting the Robbins description, but I think their is a mistaken notion that they were up close and personal with the Zodiac. The picture makes it clear they were not.

I have added a better picture of the view they had. Thank you, Richard.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=402&p=1300&hilit=Robbins+followed#p1300

The Witnesses

Postby traveller1st » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Re: The Witnesses
by Zamantha » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:51 pm

FYI:
A lot of the posts in the old history of this thread were made by James Dean. JDean was with the Vallejo Police Dept. And he was assigned the Zodiac Cold Case in the 70’s. I’ve spoke to him via emails & some meetings. He is very knowable on the Z case. Mike R. has also spoke to him numerous times.
Most the posts with no posters name are by JDean whom interviewed the children at the Stine Scene & so much more research. I wanted to make everyone aware, regarding these informative posts by JDean. We were lucky to get him to come to our former site & share some of his information with us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If Zodiac ever joined a Z forum, I’m sure he would have been banned for not following forum rules. Zam’s/Quote

I have talked to the Robbins kids extensively and they are a remarkable couple of kids. …Some background… This is an upperclass neighborhood (Duh!) The Robbins father was (maybe still is) a renowned surgeon. At the time of the murder, the senior Robbins was about a block away attending a formal dinner at the Belgian Embassy. You can begin to get the status and education of the family. The kids (Lindsey and Rebecca were 16 and 13 Respectively) were having friends over for TV, Popcorn, games, etc. There was no alcohol as some have suggested.

As both Robbons kids were the oldest, their statements were the given the most weight. Also they were the least traumatized by the event. One of the kids (not sure which) noticed a cab parked outside (in that now famous spot) with the interior lights on. (I have to insert my personal experiences here.. In the late 60’s the American cars were large and roomy. I drove an identical police car many years ago and can tell you the interior dome light was very bright. It was even brighter when you removed the opaque plastic lens that covered the bulb. We (police) did it so we could more easily read/write reports in the car, and I noted that cabs also removed these lens covers for the same reasons: to be able to read/write reports, trip tickets, make change for passengers, etc.

So when Lindsey told me that the light inside the car was like a spotlight, it was so bright… I knew what he meant (even though he didn’t).

To continue…the first kid at the window sain the driver looked "sick, or something". Lindsey and Rebecca went to the window and saw the driver laying across the front seat, head toward the passenger door. His head was in the lap of another man (passenger). Rebecca saw blood and said out loud, "he’s stabbing that man." She was seeing blood on the victim and saw the glint of a knife, so she assumed a stabbing was taking place. (No shots were heard by anyone)
We know now that Z was cutting off a large piece of Stein’s shirt with the knife.

At this time, lindsey went downstairs to get a better look at what was happening, while one of the kids upstairs called the Police. Downstairs, the lights were off, so Lindsey knew he could not be seen from the outside. He got close to the window and watched his actions. He was shortly joined by Rebecca. They both watched and observed in silence as Z pushed the driver to an upright position behind the steering wheel, exited the car and walked around the rear of the car and opened the drivers door. Stein had fallen over onto the seat and Z pulled him back up into the seated position and had some difficulty keeping him upright. Once upright, he was seen to have a rag, or something like a handkerchief and began to wipe down the door area and leaning over the driver, part of the dashboard. Whe he was finished, Z calmly walked to Cherry St. and walked North.

Not many know this, but Lindsey (being 16. feeling immortal, and beleiving the susp to be armed with only a knife) ran out his door to see where Z was going. He ran to the corner of Cherry and watched as Z continued his casual pace right up to the corner of Jackson & Cherry.

At this exact point, the first SFPD car arrives with two officers. One, Palesetti, approached Lyndsey and tried to extract what was happening. The other officer went to the cab and found the bloody victim. While Palesetti asking questions, Lyndsey was trying to explain that the susp was in sight on Cherry St. By the time Palesetti got the point, they both looked and the Z was gone.

Here’s my last post on the case, I have decided to quit, it consumed 2.5 years of my life in a varrying pace, here is what I can tell about the Lake Berryessa zodiac (can’t say for certain I believe he was the same guy who killed Paul Stine and Darlene Ferrin whom Michael Mageau, whom we have description of and he’s light colored hair – can’t see him changing his haircut before/after each murder/s and nobody suspects a thing, but I’ve incorporated/compiled the two murderers into this): https://imgur.com/gallery/RWhhWc4

Good luck in solving this!

That’s a pretty low quality photo.

I’m not convinced, I’m looking out a window right now across and ordinary two lane street, total distance 20m and I can see the cars just fine. I don’t see how this is controversial.

I’m not sure what you’re not convinced about? Again, this is a picture from the third story window looking down at the intersection of Washington and Cherry where Stine’s cab would have been parked. I’m sorry if it somehow puts a monkey wrench in your theory, but it is what it is.

Perhaps, Richard can come in and provide some more context.

19 – 23 meters, right? You’re suggesting that’s a substantial distance at night, with street lights? (were there streetlights?)

Anyway I’m suggesting that’s not a significant distance. It’s subjective yes, but not hard to test, you can satisfy yourself by looking across a street at night from a distance of 19 – 23 meters, no photography equipment required.

The fog though is something of an unknowable element, one the one hand a light fog may be entirely negligible, but in a heavy fog you might not be able to see even a meter in front.