I never said that they used secretor status in horse racing. All I know is that even today using urine they test the winners of every race and make sure the horse didn’t cheat. I assume they testing for illegal medications not just cortisol but I don’t know the exact regimen they use. But again I never said that probably would have known about secretor status from horse racing. But it was knowable at the time and it was possible that he knew about it from whatever source.

But he was the president of the racetrack and claimed he had no idea what was taking place in the drug Barn. That just doesn’t sound true and it didn’t sound true to the to veterinarians I spoke to. If Qvale was innocent why would he have to hide his knowledge post-race drug testing via saliva, which was an everyday event in the 1960s at the track where he was president. How could the president of the racetrack be so ignorant when he has to have his hand in everything.

Okay thanks for the clarification.

Anyway I’d like to bring this back to the point I wanted to make. Zodiac understood secretion status testing and this is why he didn’t lick anything. I think we are in agreement with this point and it is not something the general public would have been aware of.

Which in a way should be evident if you believe saliva = hoax letters right?

Well BD, I’m not sure if he knew about secretor status or not. From my own point of view I know that my suspect, because of his relationship to the racetrack, would have known about drug testing in horses using saliva. I have no idea whether he would have known about secretor status although that is one of the potential things that anyone could have known about at that time because of existed in those days. But from the standpoint of my research on my suspect I know that he would have been aware of *something* that would have prevented him possibly from avoiding licking stamps and envelopes. Whether he knew about drug testing only or whether he knew about drug testing and secretor status I really can’t say.

However I do agree with you that secretor status was one of the possible things a zodiac knew or could have known in the 1960s that would have allowed him to avoid licking stamps and envelopes. Let’s not bicker about what he knew or what he didn’t know . What we’re both fighting against is the concept will people express that it was 1969 and there’s no such thing as DNA at the time, so there’s no way that zodiac could have avoided or known to avoid licking his stamps and envelopes. And both of us agree 100% that that’s is a false statement.

However I do agree with you that secretor status was one of the possible things a zodiac knew or could have known in the 1960s that would have allowed him to avoid licking stamps and envelopes. Let’s not bicker about what he knew or what he didn’t know . What we’re both fighting against is the concept will people express that it was 1969 and there’s no such thing as DNA at the time, so there’s no way that zodiac could have avoided or known to avoid licking his stamps and envelopes. And both of us agree 100% that that’s is a false statement.

Okay so if people are saying you are suggesting some pre-DNA awareness in your POI then they just aren’t getting your position on saliva testing knowledge. I can understand that.

What I am really really really interested in though is the fact the Zodiac seems to be aware of secretor status and therefore also that they could possibly determine his blood type from it. For someone to have understood that concept in 1969 is no small thing at all because to learn that would mean having been educated in it, IMO. Unless he is reading higher level medical and biology books someone has to teach someone else about this just like many people are learning about it here for the first time and hopefully reading up on it.

This is much stronger evidence of him having inside knowledge of police procedure than one may think at first. It demonstrated forensic awareness at a level of being trained in forensic awareness. That’s what I get out of that because it’s 1969. I would in fact feel confident in saying it’s very odd someone uninitiated should know about it until the say the mid-80s and then maybe it’s not as convincing. If it was today I would probably say they got it watching CSI or something but for 1969… no. Just no. It’s a stretch to think he wasn’t somehow educated in this.

Let me say this another way. If anyone has a POI they have to explain how their POI knows about secretion status testing back in 1969, IMO. I get you have given your input with your POI in this regards. I wonder how everyone else who has a POI deals with it.

All people have to ask themselves is if they knew about secretion status despite the interest they have had in this case for so long. The Zodiac appears to have known about this half a century ago.

But back to Mike’s point. There are at least 2 reasons why leaving saliva would be dangerous to Z. One is the blood type analysis, which, unless Z had a rare blood type, might not necessarily be tremendously identifying – but still dangerous to him. The second is drug testing, as Mike says.

If Z had blood type AB, and was a smoker, his saliva might be used to identify nicotine and AB. The blood type would be the danger. If he had blood type A and was using a more exotic drug, then the blood type would not be the real danger.

So I think, instead of just focusing on who knew about blood type being derived from saliva, the net should be cast wide enough to encompass what Mike is pointing out – who knew that saliva, generally, could carry identifying clues.

But back to Mike’s point. There are at least 2 reasons why leaving saliva would be dangerous to Z. One is the blood type analysis, which, unless Z had a rare blood type, might not necessarily be tremendously identifying – but still dangerous to him. The second is drug testing, as Mike says.

If Z had blood type AB, and was a smoker, his saliva might be used to identify nicotine and AB. The blood type would be the danger. If he had blood type A and was using a more exotic drug, then the blood type would not be the real danger.

So I think, instead of just focusing on who knew about blood type being derived from saliva, the net should be cast wide enough to encompass what Mike is pointing out – who knew that saliva, generally, could carry identifying clues.

Basically they have to give a plausible reason as to how the person could know about secretor status testing.

There is a chance the Zodiac just decided to guess not using saliva but in 1969 criminals in general are not worried about bodily secretions. This is evident from sexual assaults also. They are worried about things like prints, their face being seen, ballistics matches, caught with incriminating evidence. Stuff like that.

Basically they have to give a plausible reason as to how the person could know about secretor status testing.

There is a chance the Zodiac just decided to guess not using saliva but in 1969 criminals in general are not worried about bodily secretions. This is evident from sexual assaults also. They are worried about things like prints, their face being seen, ballistics matches, caught with incriminating evidence. Stuff like that.

Right. Z doesn’t cover his face (excepting LB) because he doesn’t anticipate living witnesses. He’s fingerprint aware, as evidenced in his letters following PH. But his letters are sent, basically directly, to LE for analysis. So, he’s savvy enough to not give them any saliva.

Coming to learn about such testing could be from:
A professional (medical, horse racing, or LE related) utilizing the testing
A drug addict knowledgeable from experience or word of mouth that his substance abuse could be detected that way
A person on medication for some condition, who was being monitored (for example, someone institutionalized who needed to stay on their meds to control delusional thoughts and behavior.)

It’s been suggested Z’s erratic behavior coupled with periods of inactivity could be related to substance use/abuse. Just speculation on my part but that would be a reason to avoid mailing saliva to LE.

Richard I’m not going to have a debate about a date on an envelope that neither one of us has ever seen. I see your statement about the FBI surely being able to read. The funny thing is that I believed in 2002 that sfpd knew how to remove DNA from a stamp without screwing the whole thing up and look where that got me lol. So yeah I remain skeptical about the date on the SLA letter until someone can put that letter under my nose with a postmark that clearly says February 3rd Los Angeles area.

The 1978 letter was deemed "not authentic" Zodiac material by many investigators long before the SFPD list declaring it "not authentic" Zodiac correspondence. So the fact it is in a DNA list, doesn’t necessarily mean it was ruled out through DNA. It could have been labelled "not authentic" and just placed in the list alongside all the others. It was never labelled "not authentic" because of DNA. But because it’s in a DNA list, this is the automatic conclusion.

Well it’s one thing to be ruled a forgery by a handwriting expert and it’s another thing to have DNA on a letter that matches the DNA from another letter and proves that they’re both forgeries, however they determined that they were forgeries, which goes beyond just the DNA match between the two letters. In other words, just the mere fact of a DNA match between the two letters doesn’t mean they’re forgeries. There’s got to be more to it that we don’t know, which may involve Toschi or someone else.

Yes, the Exorcist and 1978 letters could prove to be genuine Zodiac letters, with the other three 1974 letters fraudulent. Possibly storage and preservation of the envelopes from 1969 to 1978 improved and hence why more cells were recovered as the letters progressed.

The question remains:

Did Keel confirm that there was no DNA at all on the envelopes or no DNA from saliva?

I’d go looking for Zodiac DNA within the Stine bloody fingerprint tape after eliminating Stine’s DNA.

I’d go looking for Zodiac DNA under the stuck on pieces on the Halloween card.

I’d go looking for Zodiac DNA on spent cartridge shells casing that weren’t handled too much -> https://www.thetrace.org/2019/03/bullet … gun-crime/

I can think of a lot of places to go looking for it today if the evidence is somewhat contained.

Actually Stine’s whole cab is very interesting. Today that whole vehicle would be gone over with a microscope looking for anything from hairs to dirt to whatever. It would be a goldmine of evidence. That’s why criminals in general burn cars out used in crimes.

The problem is that the evidence has likely mostly been destroyed with all the tests that they undergone since 1969. I can’t even begin to imagine how many chemical applications here and there have destroyed evidence in an attempt to obtain something else. So what you really need is the same DNA appearing on another item of evidence but again the same person working the case could have handled it.

When SFPD closed the case in 2004, Michael Maloney said there was still untested evidence, including letters and Stine’s shirt. I’ve never heard anything more about it.

Touch DNA purportedly doesn’t survive in clothes for very long, plus it’s full of Stine’s blood/sweat/etc., but Maloney felt it was worth mentioning.

It’s also been claimed that the cab is still in storage, but again, no word on that.

When SFPD closed the case in 2004, Michael Maloney said there was still untested evidence, including letters and Stine’s shirt. I’ve never heard anything more about it.

Touch DNA purportedly doesn’t survive in clothes for very long, plus it’s full of Stine’s blood/sweat/etc., but Maloney felt it was worth mentioning.

It’s also been claimed that the cab is still in storage, but again, no word on that.

In terms on DNA analysis there could be more going on behind the scenes than we know of, because I assume LE wouldn’t want to tip off Zodiac if he’s alive and still paying attention to the investigation.

I repeat what Alan Keel said. He told both me and Lyndon Lafferty that it would not be unfair to say the Zodiac used tap water to apply the stamps and seal the envelopes. When the DNA chart says some cells found or cells found you have to remember the way they do the sampling of these envelopes or at least the way they were doing it at the time. They were using a technique that would include cells and DNA that were on the OUTSIDE of the stamp. I don’t think he had the techniques in those days to find two or three cells that zodiac may have left from his fingertips in the glue of the stamp if he didn’t lick it but also failed to use gloves when applying it to the envelope.

Now at the time that I first made this information public in 2007 a guy named Ray Nixon came along and said that while he disagreed with me the Qvale was zodiac he nonetheless could confirm everything I was saying because he was very close to Mike Maloney in 2002 and he was told that Cydne Holt had repeated the saliva testing that Alan Keel had done before her and got the same results.

Don’t forget that the anonymous source that came forward to Tom Voigt in early 2018 indicated that Holt had specifically searched under the stamps and in the flaps and couldn’t find any DNA from the sender at the time. That is why she resorted to obtaining a DNA sample from the front of a stamp. Again this was 2002 and methods have evolved since then and it’s my belief that if they have found Zodiacs DNA today it was touch DNA from the tips of his fingers when he applied the stamps that they have only found by using the most modern techniques possible. But if they found DNA on one letter they had best have found the same DNA on multiple letters because people like me who understand the importance of replication of results in scientific testing are watching. We got fooled once in 2002 but as The Who song goes we won’t be fooled again.