Good thoughts. One of my own personal suspects, James Owen, stopped by the scene the morning after the crime and gave a statement. He claimed he had witnessed Zodiac’s car there the night before next to the Victim’s. Despit standing at the scene of the crime, where a doubls shooting had occurred 9 hours before, he says nothing about hearing a shot after he went by the scene. Yet,3 days later in his 2nd statement to police, he suddenly remembers hearing a shot after he went by. He had other inconsistencies in his statements. He was the only person known to be at the scene after the couple was seen alive, and before they were found dead. I think if he was Z, he could have stopped and talked to police to steer them in the wrong direction, or maybe to get some sort of thrill,who knows. We have definitely seen killers help police before. Arsonists like to set fires,and then watch as firemen try to put them out

Good topic. It is an interesting possibility that I have wondered about before myself. In my mind, the psychology makes good sense.

We can say with a high degree of certainty that Z followed events very closely in the newspapers. I take this as evidence that he had a strong need to relive the excitement of his deeds through the reaction of others. Therefore, I would consider it highly plausible that he would have also looked for more direct and immediate ways to bask in the reaction to his killings.

In the case of the Paul Stine murder, one question I have is about the presence of police dogs. How effective would they be? Would their scent detection skills be highly likely to catch a bystander nearby?

I have not spent a lot of time examining the characteristics of the PH murder scene, but from what I recall, I would suppose the only other way to watch might be to do so from within one of the houses. Would there have been other options for watching events?

As for the other canonical murder scenes, it strikes me as possible that he might have doubled back to the crime scene to watch events from a distant hiding place. But it also seems to me equally plausible that he would have tried to get close to the events as they unfolded from the nearby communities. Perhaps by watching the police and ambulances as they returned to from the crime scenes with the bodies. Perhaps even following the ambulances to the hospitals, and/or showing up at the hospital under the guise of a visitor.

Either way, I have long wondered if Z would likely have owned a police scanner or radio that he would have used to listen in on police and ambulance communications. They were readily available at the time. Although I am not aware of any strong evidence that he did, I would be tempted to suspect that he would have used one.

Thanks for this topic,

G

Thanks Morf, your POI certainly sounds interesting, I’d like to hear more (EDIT: just found the thread, will have a read!).
I don’t know how people reacted to crimes like PH in the 60’s, but I’m surprised I’ve never seen pictures of a crowd like you’d see these days. Maybe everyone was scared and decided to stay indoors.
However, the one thing that makes me question his interest in the crime scenes is the fact that he, almost more than any other serial killer I can think of, seems remarkably detached from his victims, almost as if it’s just something to get out of the way so that he can get on with the important job of convincing everyone how much smarter he is.
If it’s ever established that he hung around PH because he wanted to rather than through necessity then it would make the other scenes a lot more likely as well I think. That’s just reminded me of a footprint that was found at LHR in the surrounding area (ie just where someone might watch the aftermath), does anyone know if it was suspicious or decided that one of the hunters left it?

Good topic. It is an interesting possibility that I have wondered about before myself. In my mind, the psychology makes good sense.

We can say with a high degree of certainty that Z followed events very closely in the newspapers. I take this as evidence that he had a strong need to relive the excitement of his deeds through the reaction of others. Therefore, I would consider it highly plausible that he would have also looked for more direct and immediate ways to bask in the reaction to his killings.

In the case of the Paul Stine murder, one question I have is about the presence of police dogs. How effective would they be? Would their scent detection skills be highly likely to catch a bystander nearby?

I have not spent a lot of time examining the characteristics of the PH murder scene, but from what I recall, I would suppose the only other way to watch might be to do so from within one of the houses. Would there have been other options for watching events?

As for the other canonical murder scenes, it strikes me as possible that he might have doubled back to the crime scene to watch events from a distant hiding place. But it also seems to me equally plausible that he would have tried to get close to the events as they unfolded from the nearby communities. Perhaps by watching the police and ambulances as they returned to from the crime scenes with the bodies. Perhaps even following the ambulances to the hospitals, and/or showing up at the hospital under the guise of a visitor.

Either way, I have long wondered if Z would likely have owned a police scanner or radio that he would have used to listen in on police and ambulance communications. They were readily available at the time. Although I am not aware of any strong evidence that he did, I would be tempted to suspect that he would have used one.

Thanks for this topic,

G

If given the right scent in my opinion the dogs would have found Zodiac easily if he was hanging around. They may have even track him to a place of residents and seen that on true crime shows where they have done that. My German Shepard I use to have could find anyone in the woods if they was hiding and he wasn’t even trained. It was amazing to see him do that.

What if someone was familiar with hunting and with hunting dogs and had knowledge of how to throw off a scent?
My POI took me to the scene of the Lake Berryessa attacks over and over. I wonder if that was not his most memorable
killing, the most intimate?

I’m almost certain Zodiac high-tailed it to his car shortly after encountering Fouke and Zelms, then cruised by and observed the police search from the safety of the driver’s seat.

I’m almost certain Zodiac high-tailed it to his car shortly after encountering Fouke and Zelms, then cruised by and observed the police search from the safety of the driver’s seat.

Seems plausible, and it would make sense if we assume the Stine murder was preplanned (or if it was an impulsive act but Z happened to have his car parked in the area). It would also provide a way to avoid dogs and remain in the area: just re-park the car.

So, I am willing to agree, but I can only get there by conjecture.

I am curious why you said you are "almost certain". Do you have strong reasons for saying so?

Tks,

G

I’m almost certain Zodiac high-tailed it to his car shortly after encountering Fouke and Zelms, then cruised by and observed the police search from the safety of the driver’s seat.

Seems plausible, and it would make sense if we assume the Stine murder was preplanned (or if it was an impulsive act but Z happened to have his car parked in the area). It would also provide a way to avoid dogs and remain in the area: just re-park the car.

So, I am willing to agree, but I can only get there by conjecture.

I am curious why you said you are "almost certain". Do you have strong reasons for saying so?

Tks,

G

I agree with Nacht on this one.

We got a lot of detail about the dogs that night…and their handlers.

Those dogs were never given any scent to follow. They were simply in the park looking for anyone hiding.

I too believe had they been given a scent, it would have led them in the right direction, but probably would have just stopped where Zodiac got into his car.

(thx to caresut via zk.com: http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/5 … myVl3CsiSo )

Seems plausible, and it would make sense if we assume the Stine murder was preplanned (or if it was an impulsive act but Z happened to have his car parked in the area). It would also provide a way to avoid dogs and remain in the area: just re-park the car.

So, I am willing to agree, but I can only get there by conjecture.

I am curious why you said you are "almost certain". Do you have strong reasons for saying so?

Tks,

G

Hi G, the only reason I say ‘almost certain’ is because nobody can say for sure if Zodiac had a car there, although it’s probable that he did.

Tahoe said something that added some perspective for me:

…
Those dogs were never given any scent to follow. They were simply in the park looking for anyone hiding.
…

Interesting. If they were never given any scent to follow, then it seems to me the effectiveness of the dogs in helping track the killer would be minimal. Perhaps they might help ferret out somebody who was crouching down in some bushes or hidden under a tarp–or perhaps not–that seems like a ‘maybe’ at best. As long as the dog handler(s) didn’t see Z behaving suspiciously, I doubt the dogs would have presented Z with an insurmountable problem.

…
Hi G, the only reason I say ‘almost certain’ is because nobody can say for sure if Zodiac had a car there, although it’s probable that he did.

Hmm. Assuming Z wasn’t just stealing vehicles when he needed them, then his car had to be parked somewhere, so perhaps it was parked in PH.

Suppose you were going to spend time in an area like the Theatre District, or the Tenderloin. The Tenderloin has a reputation for being a rough neighborhood. Would you park your car nearby, or might you leave it in a neighborhood like PH and take a taxi to fetch it?

G

A thought:
Wonder if the police ever checked if any taxidriver, earlier that evening, drow a man from the Presidio to the area, Mason St /Geary St, where Zodiac later got into Paul Stines taxi?
Meaning… did Zodiac park his car in the Presidio area, got a taxi and went to the Mason St /Geary St area, went to some theater performance? Movie? Musical?, and afte that hailed Paul Stine’s cab, asked him to go to Maple St > Cherry St, Shot Stine and went back to his car.

A thought:
Wonder if the police ever checked if any taxidriver, earlier that evening, drow a man from the Presidio to the area, Mason St /Geary St, where Zodiac later got into Paul Stines taxi?
Meaning… did Zodiac park his car in the Presidio area, got a taxi and went to the Mason St /Geary St area, went to some theater performance? Movie? Musical?, and afte that hailed Paul Stine’s cab, asked him to go to Maple St > Cherry St, Shot Stine and went back to his car.

I’ve thought about that too TF, but think Zodiac would have considered LE might think of that as well. Still would be curious to know if LE did ask other cab drivers or bus drivers about that. I’d like to hope so.

What’s the public transport situation in PH at that time? Could Z have parked near a tram or bus stop that would have taken him near the theatre district? That would be a simple and effective way to avoid a trail and one he undoubtedly would have taken if he considered it. Hell, he may have even done that a day in advance if he was really going to throw them off the scent.
Even if public transport was bad in that area, I’ve looked on google maps and assuming the basic layout hasn’t changed much, there’s plenty of buildings within a mile or so that would be quite well served (I can see the university of SF for one, I would have thought that was around then).

I’m almost certain Zodiac high-tailed it to his car shortly after encountering Fouke and Zelms, then cruised by and observed the police search from the safety of the driver’s seat.

He could even had a bicycle chained up somewhere close he left from. Agreed though don’t think he stuck around but we do know he had to be on foot for a bit.