And he was still playing games on his death bed about Zodiac.

He was? Like how exactly?

The tearing of the shirt is what really puzzles me. Fabric can be very difficult to tear unless there is a pre-existing rip or cut. When buying it, the salesperson usually makes a little snip with a pair of scissors and then it will rip easily.

Since Paul Stine was working, I’d think his shirt was in good condition without any rips or holes. There would be a seam or hem at the bottom which would make ripping it very hard to do and would take some time! So I’m thinking maybe Zodiac had something like a pocket knife with him that he was in the habit of carrying all the time. But even if so, it seems like it would be difficult to use for tearing the shirt.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone carrying scissors around with them either but if this murder was pre-meditated, perhaps he had some and used them for the shirt.

I posted recently on another thread about this but this action puzzles me as well. It seems time consuming and difficult to execute. If Z wanted a trophy, surely there were easier targets, including the keys and wallet that I understand were missing. I guess we may never know but it seems possible to me that the shirt wasn’t planned and that maybe he improvised and cut it off to wipe blood off of himself. The location of the cut in the shirt seems to be the place where, at the bottom, there would be less blood spatter because Stine likely had his back against the seat when he was shot. If it was meant to be a trophy, why that spot to cut out instead of others? And perhaps he didn’t send the rest of the shirt in letters because he might have been concerned there was some forensic evidence to implicate him.

Anyway, it makes me wonder about Z’s plans that night. He had to carry a gun around and probably a knife. Perhaps Z had thoughts to take the taxi cab and pull up on a parked couple nearby to do his thing, thwarted by the amount of blood from Stine and the kids noticing him, which is why the keys are missing. Stine seems like an outlier as far as method, but, if you think about it, there are a lot of similarities location & method wise if he planned to block someone in at the Presidio park area. It has a Jack the Ripper "two murder scenes in one night" feel to it. Obviously, I’m just speculating. I don’t know how we will ever know unless Z is alive, is captured, and volunteers the information.

And he was still playing games on his death bed about Zodiac.

He was? Like how exactly?

You said the care facility contacted you in July 2008 only a few months before he passed. Somebody must have been very concerned about his strange behaviour and his claims in regards to the Zodiac case for that to happen. Or did they contact you for another reason?

I posted recently on another thread about this but this action puzzles me as well. It seems time consuming and difficult to execute. If Z wanted a trophy, surely there were easier targets, including the keys and wallet that I understand were missing. I guess we may never know but it seems possible to me that the shirt wasn’t planned and that maybe he improvised and cut it off to wipe blood off of himself. The location of the cut in the shirt seems to be the place where, at the bottom, there would be less blood spatter because Stine likely had his back against the seat when he was shot. If it was meant to be a trophy, why that spot to cut out instead of others? And perhaps he didn’t send the rest of the shirt in letters because he might have been concerned there was some forensic evidence to implicate him.

I agree with this – using the shirt like a rag to wipe down the cab and maybe clean himself up a little, too. This is the primary reason I don’t believe the gloves found in the cab were Zs. If they were, he probably would’ve just used them instead.

You said the care facility contacted you in July 2008 only a few months before he passed. Somebody must have been very concerned about his strange behaviour and his claims in regards to the Zodiac case for that to happen.

Yes but none of that indicates Marshall was intentionally playing games.

What was he saying about the case for them to contact you?

The tearing of the shirt is what really puzzles me. Fabric can be very difficult to tear unless there is a pre-existing rip or cut. When buying it, the salesperson usually makes a little snip with a pair of scissors and then it will rip easily.

Since Paul Stine was working, I’d think his shirt was in good condition without any rips or holes. There would be a seam or hem at the bottom which would make ripping it very hard to do and would take some time! So I’m thinking maybe Zodiac had something like a pocket knife with him that he was in the habit of carrying all the time. But even if so, it seems like it would be difficult to use for tearing the shirt.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone carrying scissors around with them either but if this murder was pre-meditated, perhaps he had some and used them for the shirt.

I posted recently on another thread about this but this action puzzles me as well. It seems time consuming and difficult to execute. If Z wanted a trophy, surely there were easier targets, including the keys and wallet that I understand were missing. I guess we may never know but it seems possible to me that the shirt wasn’t planned and that maybe he improvised and cut it off to wipe blood off of himself. The location of the cut in the shirt seems to be the place where, at the bottom, there would be less blood spatter because Stine likely had his back against the seat when he was shot. If it was meant to be a trophy, why that spot to cut out instead of others? And perhaps he didn’t send the rest of the shirt in letters because he might have been concerned there was some forensic evidence to implicate him.

Anyway, it makes me wonder about Z’s plans that night. He had to carry a gun around and probably a knife. Perhaps Z had thoughts to take the taxi cab and pull up on a parked couple nearby to do his thing, thwarted by the amount of blood from Stine and the kids noticing him, which is why the keys are missing. Stine seems like an outlier as far as method, but, if you think about it, there are a lot of similarities location & method wise if he planned to block someone in at the Presidio park area. It has a Jack the Ripper "two murder scenes in one night" feel to it. Obviously, I’m just speculating. I don’t know how we will ever know unless Z is alive, is captured, and volunteers the information.

Why the back of Stine’s shirt? The sleeve or the front of the shirt would have been far more accessible. That has always baffled me. Why go through the trouble of manipulating the body to get to the back of his shirt and waste time that could get you spotted?

Medics were trained to do just that.

Medics were trained to do just that.

For a specific purpose, to use as a tourniquet. I guess training could have taken over as habit. But, a combat medic would also know how to quickly kill someone, a feat definitely not accomplished at LB. So, if he were a combat medic, I can only interpret the LB attack as a sadistic attempt to prolong the suffering of the victims by stabbing them multiple times in non-vital areas. But… he called the police afterward to report a double murder, so he expected them to be dead. The medics I served with knew exactly where to cut someone so they would bleed out in seconds. That doesn’t sound like the LB attacker.

a combat medic would also know how to quickly kill someone, a feat definitely not accomplished at LB.

Anyone and everyone would know to cut their throats. Medic or not medic. Doctor or not doctor. That Zodiac chose not to do that has zero rub on possible medical training. Zodiac was the guy who didn’t do things the way a "normal" serial killer would have done.

a combat medic would also know how to quickly kill someone, a feat definitely not accomplished at LB.

Anyone and everyone would know to cut their throats. Medic or not medic. Doctor or not doctor. That Zodiac chose not to do that has zero rub on possible medical training. Zodiac was the guy who didn’t do things the way a "normal" serial killer would have done.

Cutting the throat is obvious… I’m talking more about which arteries to sever…femoral, radial, etc. The fact that he remained calm after the murder, tore or cut the shirt, and calmly walked away does harken to the focused, unflappable nature of a combat medic.

Hanging round the crime scene….

Zodiac certainly returned to his crime scenes – may have passed the Lake Herman Road and Blue Rock Springs locations frequently in daily life. The Stine event was a public spot the perp must have known well enough to choose it. Was he ever employed at the Presidio???

After the Blue Rock Springs shooting, the perp phoned police to report his own crime, in real time. Obviously he wanted to send police buzzing to the hot scene, which means likely he was positioned safely to observe the police activity and enjoy it. He reported the dual stabbings in real time as well so getting the police to discover his crimes quickly was important to him. Why? Maybe to observe?

Add to that he wanted San Franciscans to wear ‘Zodiac’ buttons on their lapels so he could further enjoy his crimes.

Add to that he did return to Kathleen John’s car – a crime scene- to set it on fire with an accelerant. He could watch responders from a distance…?
Doubtless the guy was keen enough to stay under the radar but a perp of this type would certainly intend to re-visit his crime locations.

Zodiac certainly returned to his crime scenes – may have passed the Lake Herman Road and Blue Rock Springs locations frequently in daily life. The Stine event was a public spot the perp must have known well enough to choose it. Was he ever employed at the Presidio???

After the Blue Rock Springs shooting, the perp phoned police to report his own crime, in real time. Obviously he wanted to send police buzzing to the hot scene, which means likely he was positioned safely to observe the police activity and enjoy it. He reported the dual stabbings in real time as well so getting the police to discover his crimes quickly was important to him. Why? Maybe to observe?

Add to that he wanted San Franciscans to wear ‘Zodiac’ buttons on their lapels so he could further enjoy his crimes.

Add to that he did return to Kathleen John’s car – a crime scene- to set it on fire with an accelerant. He could watch responders from a distance…?
Doubtless the guy was keen enough to stay under the radar but a perp of this type would certainly intend to re-visit his crime locations.

If his goal was to observe the police response, making the call from Napa doesn’t make a lot of sense. Was he going to drive back to Berryessa from Napa? The BRS call wasn’t too far from the crime scene, but there is no record of Zodiac going back to the crime scene. Whether or not he passed those locations regularly is a matter for debate. We don’t know that he lived in Vallejo or Benicia. It’s a great theory, but not one that has much evidence to support it. You have to rely on geographic profiling, which isn’t much more than a hypothesis. I think Zodiac likely had some familiarity with Presidio Heights, but that doesn’t mean that he ever lived or worked in the area, although that is certainly possible.

It’s a great theory, but not one that has much evidence to support it.

Agreed, this is just speculation. We cannot know exactly what the perp was up to without the perp to tell us. I am just considering Z’s possible behavioral motivations within his known crimes. He did self-confess by phone to police immediately after offending on at least two occasions. He could not wait on an op-ed letter campaign. He must have wanted to draw out the heat quickly for a reason(s). What reasons?

Agreed, this is just speculation. We cannot know exactly what the perp was up to without the perp to tell us. I am just considering Z’s possible behavioral motivations within his known crimes. He did self-confess by phone to police immediately after offending on at least two occasions. He could not wait on an op-ed letter campaign. He must have wanted to draw out the heat quickly for a reason(s). What reasons?

Well, he only called the police twice. That’s a small sample size. His call to police after the BRS attacks might have been the first notice to police of the murders. For Napa, I think the rangers were alerted before Zodiac made his call (I could be wrong about that). If I had to guess, he probably just enjoyed taunting the police personally.