I think the Zodiac is full of it because he dillydallies around how to describe the location he murdered Ferrin and Mageau from the start. Why? If you are a local, you call it Blue Rock Spring’s Park.
"I want to report a double murder. If you go one mile east on Columbus Parkway to the public park, you will find the kids in a brown car. They were shot with a 9 mm Luger. I also killed those kids last year…. Good-bye".
So he knows its a public park but doesn’t know its Blue Rock Spring’s Park? Why can’t he say near Blue Rock Spring’s Golf Course? It’s not like he doesn’t know about the place.
Vallejo Times – Herald Letter: July 31 1969
San Francisco Examiner Letter: July 31 1969
San Francisco Chronicle Letter: July 31 1969 <– Mentions the golf course.
Only the Chronicle out of the three virtually identical letters mentions the golf course.
A possible deduction here is that he is avoiding calling it Blue Rock Spring’s Golf Course Park but one communication has let the cat out of the bag. He has probably given us a clue he wanted to avoid.
Lake Berryessa in this hypothesis is almost certainly a response to investigators getting too close with their work in Vallejo for the Ferrin/Mageau attack. Lake Berryessa is misdirection and therefore so is the new Zodiac persona because it only emerges between BRS and LB, not before.
· The Zodiac first called himself the Zodiac before the LB attack and after the first set of letters about the BRS and LHR attacks. He did not call himself the Zodiac before.
· The Zodiac did this because he knew he was going to attack elsewhere for misdirection and so had to create a persona to link up with.
· The event at LB was heavily planned to coincide with this persona including writing on the car door and symbol left at the crime scene. Oh not to mention a costume also.
Why?
It’s two people building an alibi for one.
The killer at BRS is not the same person at LB but they know each other and what we are seeing is the creation of a fictional killer, so someone else can get an alibi if looked at for the BRS attack. So for the LB attack the person who carried out BRS is probably alibied at this time on purpose. That means they are afraid of the investigation at BRS.
So why Stine? Why the need if LB worked?
Something has happened here between LB and Stine in the space of two weeks. My suggestion is that the footwear prints (Wing Walker) at LB have also gotten too close for comfort along with the sketch from the attack. The survival of Bryan Hartnell has put a spin on things. The plan to alibi which is a plan to misdirect now also requires more misdirection.
Stine is the unplanned response to this. That is a total and utter catastrophic mistake, being seen, leaving prints and the fact his letters go into Zodiac persona overdrive tells us everything we need to know.
BRS got close to one and LB got close to the other. However, you need both together to align with the Zodiac case.
The Zodiac murders comes to a close because it was never meant to spiral out in the first place. It was a plan to alibi and misdirect which went badly wrong but worked in the end despite all the evidence left behind.
This probably explains why prints and DNA aren’t matching up. You are dealing with two sets from two people. It also explains why the letters appear to contain two sets of handwriting.
www.zodiachalloweencard.com has a 400 paged book for free containing the super solution with an overarching explanation of the cards and more.
I don’t think it matters whether he said Blue Rock Springs Park, public park, or park. The phone instructions are pretty simple, when you consider he is directing Vallejo police in an easterly direction to the only park that exists in that location. The Zodiac Killer stated on Oct 13, "they could have caught me if they searched the park properly". We cannot conclude he didn’t know the area because he failed to use Presidio. Failure to name Blue Rock Springs Park in its entirety, is not evidence of his unfamiliarity with it, or whether he is local to it. Absence of saying something, is not evidence of unfamiliarity with it. I would say as a kid many times "let’s meet at the park". That doesn’t mean I didn’t know its name. How many parks are east of Vallejo Police Station. Only one, on Columbus Parkway – a road he knew the name of. Does his knowledge of the name of Columbus Parkway prove his familiarity with the area, and hence therefore local to it – not necessarily.
You said "The Zodiac first called himself the Zodiac before the LB attack and after the first set of letters about the BRS and LHR attacks. He did not call himself the Zodiac before". We actually don’t know when he first called himself Zodiac, we only know when he first wrote Zodiac on August 4th 1969.
The investigators actually admitted after the Stine murder, that they were no closer to capturing Zodiac then, as they were when he began on December 1968. The switch to Berryessa could be no more reason than he could. No serial killer is compelled to keep committing the same kind of crimes ad infinitum, any more than they aren’t. Two people committing one or all of the crimes cannot be definitively ruled out, but there is equally not one shred of compelling evidence to support such a case, least of all subjective analysis of handwriting. It really isn’t that difficult to deliberately change your handwriting.
Many things could have happened in the two weeks between Berryessa and Presidio Heights. For example, the newspapers stating his primary target was the women, he feared the men more, he was a sexually motivated killer, a sexual sadist etc. Then came Stine. There are innumerable reasons he chose a taxicab driver in San Francisco – probably too many to make a bold claim about any. If you have two people in mind for the murders or letters, it is a dangerous thing to work backwards and fit the two-person hypothesis into your thinking retrospectively. It’s like having a suspect and moulding the crimes and communications around your suspect, rather than letting the evidence be the driver.
https://www.zodiacciphers.com/
“I simply cannot accept that there are, on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.” Edward R. Murrow.
I understand that describing a place other than it’s name doesn’t mean you don’t know the name. However it’s unusual in that he could have just said the name of the place instead of complex directions which even split researchers over if it was correct and what it meant. It takes you a large paragraph to explain what he meant for example. "Blue Rock Springs Park" saves all that trouble. So that stands out to me as something important.
Although we don’t know if he called himself the Zodiac before in private we know he didn’t call himself that before in public with these crimes because he called himself "The murderer" instead. It is in the initial communications with the one involving mention of a golf course which is absent from the other two copies. He switches from "the murderer" to the "Zodiac" between BRS and LB. So again there are reasons to believe it was introduced at this point, not before.
A detective saying they are ‘no closer’ to finding the Zodiac doesn’t mean the Zodiac or a break directing at the Zodiac isn’t in the case files. It just means they haven’t gotten the break they need. In my hypothesis the break is to connect the data from BRS with LB and there should be something where two sets of data encroach on each other somehow. The crimes are reacting in part to the ongoing investigation(s) in my hypothesis.
As for the Zodiac being more than one person. I think it’s an old suggestion and nothing new. This case isn’t a hard and fast one perp case as others are. There are many reasons that point to more than one person. Also it’s not like the science isn’t either if we have different prints showing up but contamination may explain those. Still, the hypothesis does lines up with having different forensic evidence there. For example, hybrid DNA also. All I have to think about is how both Allen AND Cheney were tested for DNA. Obviously Vallejo PD looked into the idea they were somehow connected and I bet they also considered the whole alibi thing also with it.
www.zodiachalloweencard.com has a 400 paged book for free containing the super solution with an overarching explanation of the cards and more.
i agree that it makes sense that the costume and door writing at lb was because he had created the "zodiac" persona after the first two crimes and he was going "all in" on it. that makes sense to me. he was making himself a comic book villain and maybe the costume was more to make it real for him, and to scare the victims, than because he thought anyone would survive to talk about it.
i can also see the case where he thought he was close to being caught so he decided to pull a random killing in order to enforce the notion he was pushing to le/news that he was everywhere, and they weren’t catching all of his activity. the idea that this was partly to provide an alibi makes sense. if he can convince le that he’s involved in murders/attacks that he didn’t do then he’s provided himself a capable alibi – "yeah i was around for lhr and brs but i was at work when that cop was killed. couldn’t be me."
i do not see how any of that indicates a second killer or group of individuals working together. as others have stated there is no evidence that multiple people were involved so i don’t want to assume that any more than i’d assume aliens or bigfoot were involved. there’s just not anything that leads to multiple participants.
i agree that it makes sense that the costume and door writing at lb was because he had created the "zodiac" persona after the first two crimes and he was going "all in" on it. that makes sense to me. he was making himself a comic book villain and maybe the costume was more to make it real for him, and to scare the victims, than because he thought anyone would survive to talk about it.
i can also see the case where he thought he was close to being caught so he decided to pull a random killing in order to enforce the notion he was pushing to le/news that he was everywhere, and they weren’t catching all of his activity. the idea that this was partly to provide an alibi makes sense. if he can convince le that he’s involved in murders/attacks that he didn’t do then he’s provided himself a capable alibi – "yeah i was around for lhr and brs but i was at work when that cop was killed. couldn’t be me."
i do not see how any of that indicates a second killer or group of individuals working together. as others have stated there is no evidence that multiple people were involved so i don’t want to assume that any more than i’d assume aliens or bigfoot were involved. there’s just not anything that leads to multiple participants.
You get the first part can make sense and has explanatory power over WHY the Zodiac at all. It can work in the timeline. It doesn’t appear to contradict or clash with anything. It suggests there is evidence to connect between LB and BRS or at the very least BRS was close. I think this angle can open up a place to look again which is why I am interested in it.
I have no problem with accepting more than one person was involved in the Zodiac crimes only IF they are cooperating. I have a problem with the idea the Zodiac crimes are a hoax or copycats with independent killers not working together. That is up there with bigfoot and aliens and is highly controversial. It requires a lot of explaining. However more than one person cooperating isn’t controversial like that. It doesn’t require heaps of explaining. In fact I sort of explained it in the hypothesis in a few steps which you understood. So I want to put how controversial a duo idea is in context. Plenty of serial killings have turned out by a team right? So there is a lot of precedence for it and likely some of those investigations were just looking for one person and then found another was involved.
In general we don’t add unnecessary complexity to explain the evidence. We try to keep it as parsimonious as possible. However the caveat here is that it needs to explain all the evidence and not just some of it. So we hope there is nothing there to indicate two people cooperating, in the one person model.
Handwriting analysis is not a science but I found this compelling -> https://www.reddit.com/r/ZodiacKiller/c … attempt_2/
It’s handwriting analysis but what is the explanation behind how the writer is able to select between 2 styles of handwriting both of which are supposed to mask their real handwriting (given one isn’t their real handwriting)? I know which of the options I would pick from those conclusions. What would be the one person model to explain this observation? So parsimony works IF it explains all the evidence and not just some of it. Another thing that got my attention was William Crow’s account of being chased by two men in a car.
Anyway the hypothesis is literally just add one person to explain the Zodiac in this model and nothing else required. +1 basically and you get the alibi hypothesis which can explain a whole pile. -1 and it doesn’t work and a mystery bumps up again as to why the Zodiac? +1 and you can explain the Zodiac as misdirection for an alibi plan that was failing to create the distance it wanted but finally got there in the end.
www.zodiachalloweencard.com has a 400 paged book for free containing the super solution with an overarching explanation of the cards and more.
For your two person hypothesis, you should examine the sighting of "Zodiac" nearing the top of Cherry by Lindsey (in tandem with Pelissetti). Then square this with another "Zodiac" spotted by Fouke heading into Maple about 1m 50 seconds later, when it only should have taken Fouke 1 minute to reach Jackson & Maple.
APB 9:58 for Fouke and Pelissetti.
Fouke spotted Zodiac 9:59
Zodiac left cab 9:56
Zodiac top of Cherry 9:57
Zodiac pointed out by Lindsey 9:57
APB 9:58
How can both police officers get the APB at 9:58, yet Pelissetti can have Zodiac pointed out to him one minute earlier. Go figure.
https://www.zodiacciphers.com/
“I simply cannot accept that there are, on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.” Edward R. Murrow.
For your two person hypothesis, you should examine the sighting of "Zodiac" nearing the top of Cherry by Lindsey (in tandem with Pelissetti). Then square this with another "Zodiac" spotted by Fouke heading into Maple about 1m 50 seconds later, when it only should have taken Fouke 1 minute to reach Jackson & Maple.
APB 9:58 for Fouke and Pelissetti.
Fouke spotted Zodiac 9:59
Zodiac left cab 9:56
Zodiac top of Cherry 9:57
Zodiac pointed out by Lindsey 9:57
APB 9:58
How can both police officers get the APB at 9:58, yet Pelissetti can have Zodiac pointed out to him one minute earlier. Go figure.
Nothing Fouke says about that night can be relied on, he’s told too many different accounts.
Certainly won’t argue with that.
https://www.zodiacciphers.com/
“I simply cannot accept that there are, on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.” Edward R. Murrow.
For your two person hypothesis, you should examine the sighting of "Zodiac" nearing the top of Cherry by Lindsey (in tandem with Pelissetti). Then square this with another "Zodiac" spotted by Fouke heading into Maple about 1m 50 seconds later, when it only should have taken Fouke 1 minute to reach Jackson & Maple.
APB 9:58 for Fouke and Pelissetti.
Fouke spotted Zodiac 9:59
Zodiac left cab 9:56
Zodiac top of Cherry 9:57
Zodiac pointed out by Lindsey 9:57
APB 9:58
How can both police officers get the APB at 9:58, yet Pelissetti can have Zodiac pointed out to him one minute earlier. Go figure.
That’s a discussion that ended too early IMO. Here is the link to it. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=3489
That would be for a two person present hypothesis. So in that model the Stine attack involved both together and wouldn’t be for an alibi plan. So why together?
I guess they could be arguing it out now that LB has left clues behind. So no more footprints in the mud. No more tire tracks. No more cars getting seen. They take it to the urban jungle, murder a taxi driver because feet on concrete can’t leave prints and they don’t need a car because they are near to their bolt hole. There is no phone call for this crime. The objective is to distract from BRS and LB and to put the focus on SF. Since the letters are being sent from SF to distract from BRS they continue with using SF.
Only they seriously mess up and their face is seen and they do leave prints. Then there is the dual composite put out. They go bananas writing threatening letters targeting school buses and kids. One of them writes a boo hoo letter in his depression phase to Melvin Belli in the next two months. There is a gap of 4 months after that and then "Zodiac (cough cough)" has realized despite all that no one has actually figured out it is them and starts off again with the "My Name Is" letter to keep the Zodiac persona rolling which may have paid off in the end.
I call it the Zodiac persona as it is designed to make people think it is one person. That’s part of it’s objective. In fact if it was one offender trying to misdirect, then why not start off the letters "WE are the Zodiacs speaking" to make LE think you are more than one person? Like a "Foreign Faction" or "Satanic cult" or anything that makes it look like a group? The Zodiac killer is defying categorizing, is defying comparison to other serial killers "collecting slaves for the afterlife?", changing M.O., all that stuff speaks to the invention of something that doesn’t exist even in the world of serial killers. The Zodiac copies a lot. It’s a composite of all sorts stuff they have been grabbing at to create the Zodiac. That’s why it’s such a disfigured profile that defies categorization. It’s a nonsense comic book character and assorted pieces tacked onto real homicides carried out by more than one person. The Zodiac killer doesn’t really exist in nature even with severe personality disorders like Richard Chase the Vampire of Sacramento. Can someone draw a Zodiac comparison who wasn’t a copycat?
+1 person has this sort of explanatory power. +1 can explain a simple a question. Why the Zodiac? The answer being the title in the OP.
www.zodiachalloweencard.com has a 400 paged book for free containing the super solution with an overarching explanation of the cards and more.
It doesn’t make much practical difference if the Zodiac persona was sincere or not, though it is something to bear in mind following the capture of EARONS/Joseph DeAngelo. DeAngelo ranted to his victims about "the pigs", and he possibly left communications at a crime scene that made him appear mentally unstable and illiterate, when in reality he was a highly calculated offender and competent LE for several years. The misspellings in Zodiac’s communications seem similarly contrived. However, the costume at Lake Berryessa is harder to explain, so I would err on the side of "Zodiac" being the product of a genuine personality disorder and/or psychosis.
I agree with your observations of VREARONS and red herrings. There is convergence and look how many went the path believing both the same. So I do like the hypothesis the Zodiac is failed LE.
He is feigning stupidity because he is feigning criminality IMO. Like the escaped prisoner story. However I think Bryan Hartnell probably got it right with his ‘hell no’ answer to questions about being educated. Cipher mistakes and the lack of anything indicating advanced knowledge there tells me Hartnell might not be wrong.
I think the perp probably does have issues as laid out in the Belli letter which strangely reminds me of BTK ‘Batter’ demon. I think the need to insult LE was also real with a huge chip on his shoulder with society. The emotional need to taunt real. To communicate a big part of his signature.
www.zodiachalloweencard.com has a 400 paged book for free containing the super solution with an overarching explanation of the cards and more.
BDHOLLAND said;
"I think the Zodiac"…"dillydallies around how to describe the location
he murdered Ferrin and Mageau"…"Why? If you are a local, you call it
Blue Rock Spring’s Park."
…
"So he knows its a public park but doesn’t know its Blue Rock Spring’s
Park? Why can’t he say near Blue Rock Spring’s Golf Course? It’s not
like he doesn’t know about the place."
The ‘Blue Rock Springs Golf Course’ has golfing greens to the west and east
of Columbus Parkway which splits it, and roads leading to buildings that
are to the west of Columbus Parkway (although I don’t know if these roads
were gated after hours);
https://historicaerials.com/location/38 … 62/1968/17
,so perhaps in the mind of the Zodiac, he was being correctly specific – the
‘public park’ parking lot will be the first thing you encounter when going to
the public park, so no chance of a misunderstanding or confusion by
nominating the ‘public park’ as the place. Also, there’s only one public park
off Columbus Parkway in 1968, and I assume 1969, as Richard Grinell said.
BDHOLLAND said;
"he could have just said the name of the place instead of complex directions
which even split researchers over if it was correct and what it meant."
(Ah, you’re referring to the wrong (1) ‘one mile’ distance she said he said).
Actually, I believe the directions he actually gave were correct. If you
listen to Vallejo P.D. call-taker Nancy Slover, she kind of sidesteps around
what she was saying to the caller and when she was saying it;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t7qpDNU4RM&t=2025s
I believe that after Zodiac got started into his monologue, Nancy Slover
interupted him two or three times – understandable, to anyone who has ever
called a (police) call centre – there’s a script they’d follow doggedly, e.g.
what is your name?/where are you calling from?/what crime are you
reporting?/are you in danger?, etc., or variations thereof. Which is why
she couldn’t give a verbatim record of what he said, but rather, as in the
written report, she states "Substance of statement was as follows"…!
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=19
Zodiac wasn’t about to slow down or stop talking, to answer any questions
that she asked.
Ever listen to someone talking on the phone where one person’s voice is
being interupted by the other party? Trying to keep an exact record of
what the person that you are talking-over, is saying, is difficult mentally
and audibly – you have your words in your head, but did you remember exactly
what they said, or even correctly hear what they said, when your voice
overrides what they are saying, while they then continue talking?
SO I believe she talked over Zodiac before he started into the ‘mile’ part,
remembering or hearing only the ‘mile’ word, and perhaps talking over that
also so she may have missed him actually saying ‘two miles‘. (note*)
If this happened, he could have actually said;
"I want to report a double murder. If you go two mile-s east on-to
Columbus Parkway to the public park you will find the kids in a brown car.
They were shot with (a?) 9mm Luger. I also killed those kids last year.
GoooodBbyyyye."
The Zodiac wasn’t an idiot, he knew how to read and measure distances on
a map – the Columbus Parkway is in fact approximately 2.3 miles directly
due east of the Vallejo P.D. at 111 Amador Street;
viewtopic.php?f=98&t=1974&p=25260&hilit=solano+county#p25260
you may say it simply as two miles if you are wanting to give directions
whilst minimizing your time on a phone line.
Is it likely Zodiac got his distance wrong, or more likely Nancy Slover
simply didn’t hear or correctly mentally process and remember what he
actually said?
That’s how I reason it.
(Note* – Although it may be labouring a point, I also think he could have said
"two mile east" (which she may have talked over and mentally processed the
‘mile’ as confirming to her as singular – there’s a verbal thing I’ve experienced
where people with military or quasi-military training may drop the plural ‘s’
when giving distances e.g. "the assembly point is 5 mile down X road", – it’s a
minor possibility, but I may as well note it.)
Cheers
Couldn’t agree more, but additonally, the Zodiac was standing adjacent to Springs Road, so when police exited Solano Avenue onto Springs, they have 1.39 miles due east. Go one mile east, obviously an approximation.
https://www.zodiacciphers.com/
“I simply cannot accept that there are, on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.” Edward R. Murrow.
I believe that after Zodiac got started into his monologue, Nancy Slover
interupted him two or three times – understandable, to anyone who has ever
called a (police) call centre – there’s a script they’d follow doggedly
Same with ambulance call handlers, they will stick to important questions as you are panicking and rambling.
The pencil flashlight tapped to his gun would be a lie, it really was a stick flashlight like the police has. It would be someone in LE trying to cover up the LH murder which was drugs related. Would explain why he only mentions details one would know of from people working on the LH or BRS case, and then never manages to do so again, because after BRS they end up no longer involved with the people working on the case. They go on to kill Stine to be able to keep being believed when writing letters, which they totally screw up, and then run out of bloody shirt pieces.
Any Vallejo cop that ended up no longer working for the local PD between BRS and LB?
Also remember that advert in the paper about Zodiac and his partner? Could be related. Would have to check the date.
The FBI has some communications between people in the army calling each other Zodiac and Riddler. I forget where I saw those. From what I recall they predated the attacks?
