Zodiac emptied his clip, went back and re-loaded, returned to shoot some more, but I don’t believe he emptied his clip a second time. Meaning, he didn’t run out of bullets. What he did is made the mistake of assuming he had done enough damage to both victims that they were both dead.

Shooter Z didn’t make that mistake again. LB Stabber left both victims alive. If anything, LB is a regression; lessons NOT learned from previous mistakes.

There is no indication that Z reloaded at BRS. I think only 9 shots were fired, which is a standard clip for a 9mm. He didn’t go back to the car to reload. He was leaving and heard Mageau scream or whimper.

As much as I think Zodiac was terrible at killing, to be fair to him, it was reasonable to conclude that Bryan and Cecilia would die before being found. Bryan was just lucky. Zodiac just didn’t know how to efficiently kill anyone with a knife. I don’t think lessons from LHR and BRS transfer to LB. Your argument is kind of like saying that because a boxer finishes his opponents with a right hand, he can’t also knock them out with a left hook. Or because he always wins in the first round, he can’t choose to take a fighter deeper into a fight to get some rounds under his belt. And how many times have we seen fighters do remarkably well for several fights only to regress and have a tough fight (Tyson vs. Douglas)? You seem to think Zodiac is bound to act one way and one way only.

Zodiac emptied his clip, went back and re-loaded, returned to shoot some more, but I don’t believe he emptied his clip a second time. Meaning, he didn’t run out of bullets. What he did is made the mistake of assuming he had done enough damage to both victims that they were both dead.

Shooter Z didn’t make that mistake again. LB Stabber left both victims alive. If anything, LB is a regression; lessons NOT learned from previous mistakes.

There is no indication that Z reloaded at BRS. I think only 9 shots were fired, which is a standard clip for a 9mm. He didn’t go back to the car to reload. He was leaving and heard Mageau scream or whimper.

As much as I think Zodiac was terrible at killing, to be fair to him, it was reasonable to conclude that Bryan and Cecilia would die before being found. Bryan was just lucky. Zodiac just didn’t know how to efficiently kill anyone with a knife. I don’t think lessons from LHR and BRS transfer to LB. Your argument is kind of like saying that because a boxer finishes his opponents with a right hand, he can’t also knock them out with a left hook. Or because he always wins in the first round, he can’t choose to take a fighter deeper into a fight to get some rounds under his belt. And how many times have we seen fighters do remarkably well for several fights only to regress and have a tough fight (Tyson vs. Douglas)? You seem to think Zodiac is bound to act one way and one way only.

If a fighter loses a fight because, having full control, he turns his back to his opponent and bows to the crowd, allowing his opponent to beat him, the next time out, when he has full control, he is quite highly unlikely to do the same thing. Nobody who liked to brag as much as Z would allow himself to be chumped like that, twice in a row.

Shooter Z at PH made sure of the kill. Stabber Z at LB quite obviously did not, though it would’ve been so very easy to do so with a throat slash.

I can’t believe you are struggling to see the clear, and major, difference here.

He wasn’t some kind of aspiring ninja assassin. He was just a brutal thug who enjoyed hurting people.

He wasn’t some kind of aspiring ninja assassin. He was just a brutal thug who enjoyed hurting people.

In his letters, including the solved ciphers, he specifically uses the words "kill" and "killing" many many times. I don’t think he ever used the words "hurt" or "hurting."

He wasn’t some kind of aspiring ninja assassin. He was just a brutal thug who enjoyed hurting people.

In his letters, including the solved ciphers, he specifically uses the words "kill" and "killing" many many times. I don’t think he ever used the words "hurt" or "hurting."

He described sadistic fantasies of torturing his "slaves".

If we’re taking his letters at face value, then he definitely fantasized about inflicting pain. And if you include LB, then you have a simple explanation for why he stabbed instead of slitting their throats. I’m sure both are painful, but I’ll hazard a guess that multiple stab wounds are worse. And yes, he wanted the victims to die, but even a point-blank shot to the head doesn’t guarantee death. He simply wasn’t an expert at killing people, along with factors unique to the individual crimes (doesn’t want to fire multiple shots in a residential area, has to get out of BRS quick, etc.) and his peculiar psychological make-up.

The "learning" argument cuts both ways. He "learned" from BRS and tied Hartnell up, and left the phone dangling. His downfall was falling for Hartnell’s ruse. Mageau yelled, which is why Z came back to the car and fired again.

He simply wasn’t an expert at killing people, along with factors unique to the individual crimes (doesn’t want to fire multiple shots in a residential area, has to get out of BRS quick, etc.) and his peculiar psychological make-up.

The desire to leave the attack site so quickly is a signature, imo. It leads to so many odd and unusual aspects of the case. I think you’re right that, as a sadist he wants to inflict pain, yet he could prolong this by kidnapping and torturing the victims. However, this comes with its own unique risks. More important to Zodiac is the speedy exit, it overrides other considerations, giving his crimes an almost hitman like quality. Later suggesting that he tortures the victims after death combines both of his key drives (a quick exit and making the victims suffer). Torturing the community with subsequent letters is also a way to perpetuate pain and grief.

I have the feeling that with LB Zodiac went from being elated to being completely crestfallen when Hartnell survived to give a blow-by-blow account. Any Zodiac communication would struggle to contradict Hartnell’s vivd and detailed testimony. Therefore, Zodiac had to do something even more astonishing next to maintain control of the narrative, going well outside of his original MO, which had been until now scoping out and killing couples.

If we’re taking his letters at face value, then he definitely fantasized about inflicting pain. And if you include LB, then you have a simple explanation for why he stabbed instead of slitting their throats. I’m sure both are painful, but I’ll hazard a guess that multiple stab wounds are worse. And yes, he wanted the victims to die, but even a point-blank shot to the head doesn’t guarantee death. He simply wasn’t an expert at killing people, along with factors unique to the individual crimes (doesn’t want to fire multiple shots in a residential area, has to get out of BRS quick, etc.) and his peculiar psychological make-up.

The "learning" argument cuts both ways. He "learned" from BRS and tied Hartnell up, and left the phone dangling. His downfall was falling for Hartnell’s ruse. Mageau yelled, which is why Z came back to the car and fired again.

He can stab to inflict pain, then slit throats to collect slaves for the afterlife, which was his oft-stated goal. It isn’t one or the other.

Killing was more important to Shooter Z than inflicting pain: he didn’t torture David Faraday or Paul Stine, and Betty Lou and Diane died fairly quickly as well. Not like Cecelia, who survived in pain for 2 days, and Bryan, who suffered pain longer than that as he recovered.

Inflicting pain was more important than killing at LB. And LB Stabber could easily have done both, had killing been a key part of his agenda.

He simply wasn’t an expert at killing people, along with factors unique to the individual crimes (doesn’t want to fire multiple shots in a residential area, has to get out of BRS quick, etc.) and his peculiar psychological make-up.

The desire to leave the attack site so quickly is a signature, imo. It leads to so many odd and unusual aspects of the case. I think you’re right that, as a sadist he wants to inflict pain, yet he could prolong this by kidnapping and torturing the victims. However, this comes with its own unique risks. More important to Zodiac is the speedy exit, it overrides other considerations, giving his crimes an almost hitman like quality. Later suggesting that he tortures the victims after death combines both of his key drives (a quick exit and making the victims suffer). Torturing the community with subsequent letters is also a way to perpetuate pain and grief.

He did not leave the attack site quickly. He chatted with Bryan, told him a story, showed him the gun was loaded, chose a slow method of attack, with the tying up first, then he stopped and wrote on the car door rather than getting out of there and sending letters to claim the crime.

I have the feeling that with LB Zodiac went from being elated to being completely crestfallen when Hartnell survived to give a blow-by-blow account. Any Zodiac communication would struggle to contradict Hartnell’s vivd and detailed testimony. Therefore, Zodiac had to do something even more astonishing next to maintain control of the narrative, going well outside of his original MO, which had been until now scoping out and killing couples.

Wouldn’t Zodiac have been likewise completely crestfallen when Mageau survived at BRS, less than 2 months earlier? Therefore, wouldn’t he have to do something more astonishing next, to maintain control of the narrative? I say, exactly, he did. Shooter Z went from the failure at BRS directly to the spectacular over-kill at PH.

You are saying Shooter Z (LHR, BRS, PH) and Stabber Z (LB) are the same guy, and that he followed up the failure at BRS with yet another failure at Lake Berryessa. When success at LB (cut throats at the conclusion of the attack) would’ve been so simple.

He did not leave the attack site quickly.

Only because Bryan conversationally waylaid him. From start to finish, the whole exchange was over in a matter of minutes. Afterwards, both victims remained alive! On more than one occasion it appears the Z didn’t wait around long enough to ensure both victims were dead. To me this seems a consequence of the desire to leave as quickly as possible, something that appears to be observably true and why cars feature quite heavily in the case. After both BRS and LB he mainlined it to a phone booth, because tagging the crime is of equal importance to committing the crime. With PH he positions himself as close as possible to his likely extraction point, yet he had tarry with Stine’s corpse in order to secure the proof. I’d suggest he was well out of his comfort zone here.

It would appear Jack Stiltz’s demand for more proof would come to haunt Zodiac.

Wouldn’t Zodiac have been likewise completely crestfallen when Mageau survived at BRS, less than 2 months earlier?

Possibly, but a second failure would underline the fact. I take your point about the inconsistencies between the crimes and seeing LB as an outlier, and yes, treating it as a copycat would have some explanatory power about why suspect descriptions don’t match. Yet, we’d have to know what evidence was withheld by LE to conclusively say they aren’t the work of the same person.

Debate then, put forward your view. Previously you stated “I wish you would elaborate. Besides Stabber Z claiming to be the real Zodiac, why do you think he was? I can give you a dozen reasons why he likely was not.” I have fulfilled my end of the bargain, please can you fulfil yours ?

4th and last time of asking.

To assume that Z learned anything from murder to murder is to beg the question. How do you know that? We don’t know that Z actually wanted David and Betty Lou to exit the vehicle at LHR. For all we know, David couldn’t start the car fast enough so they decided to bolt out of the car. We just have no idea what really happened in that crime. So, assuming that BRS represents an evolution because Z didn’t let Darlene and Mageau exit the vehicle is purely speculative. To compare PH to BRS or LHR is also drawing a faulty comparison. Z didn’t have to approach the vehicle because he was already inside it. If he could have gotten a clean headshot on Mageau at BRS, he would have taken it. Mageau was just cagey.

I don’t think there is any comparison to be had between LB and BRS, LHR, or PH because of the time of day, location, and the weapon of choice. Had Z wanted to use a gun, I think he would have just walked up to Bryan and Cecilia, shot them, and walked back to his car. Why can’t he have just chosen to use a knife? Why can’t he have chosen to use a ruse to ensure compliance? It’s as if Shooter Z is a mute with no social skills and no ability to use any other weapon but a handgun. Why assume that?

The person who wrote on the car door is effectively trying to show he is the murderer responsible for the attacks previously attributed to him

Aside: that person’s freehand writing on that karmann ghia door bears an extraordinary likeness to the penmanship in the known letters submitted by the Zodiac.
For those who speculate this case involves multiple different perps, that is a big hurdle.

It was the Zodiac. No question about it.

The person who wrote on the car door is effectively trying to show he is the murderer responsible for the attacks previously attributed to him

Aside: that person’s freehand writing on that karmann ghia door bears an extraordinary likeness to the penmanship in the known letters submitted by the Zodiac.
For those who speculate this case involves multiple different perps, that is a big hurdle.

Aside: that person’s freehand writing on that karmann ghia door bears some extraordinary differences to the penmanship in the known letters submitted by the Zodiac.
For those who speculate this case involves only one perp, that is a big hurdle.