Ok same question I’ve asked Marshall numerous time but without answer, could please please elaborate on your arguments. What are YOUR reasons for believing that this was a different person than the zodiac crimes ?

The person who wrote on the car door is effectively trying to show he is the murderer responsible for the attacks previously attributed to him

Aside: that person’s freehand writing on that karmann ghia door bears an extraordinary likeness to the penmanship in the known letters submitted by the Zodiac.
For those who speculate this case involves multiple different perps, that is a big hurdle.

The car door has exactly 18 letters printed on it. From there you want to draw a huge conclusion?

The car door has 3 examples of the letter "e". I have pictured them below. They are distinctly different from each other, I think all would agree. So, you tell me which one bears an extraordinary likeness to Z’s penmanship, and I will offer the other two as being substantially unlike Z’s penmanship:

I was not suggesting multiple offenders – just pointing out that this fact alone razes the ‘multiple offender’ arguments.

I’ve seen that car door in person and Zodiac must have been rather uncomfortable writing on it. Karmann Ghia’s are low to the ground and the writing on the door went nearly to the bottom. A very awkward way to write. Here’s a video I made: https://youtu.be/ugm8ZRuJ1T4

Ok same question I’ve asked Marshall numerous time but without answer, could please please elaborate on your arguments. What are YOUR reasons for believing that this was a different person than the zodiac crimes ?

Every post I have made in this thread, almost from page 1, provide reasons for believing Shooter Z and Stabber Z were different people. The post I’ve just made above is an example, about the car door with its 18 letters including 3 distinct "e" examples, being highly inconclusive. I am not writing a book, I don’t have a website or podcast, so I don’t have a neat summation. If you want to see the dialogue, the arguments for and against, you’ll have to do some reading. Or, use the search functionality on this site.

I’ve seen that car door in person and Zodiac must have been rather uncomfortable writing on it. Karmann Ghia’s are low to the ground and the writing on the door went nearly to the bottom. A very awkward way to write. Here’s a video I made: https://youtu.be/ugm8ZRuJ1T4

So are you saying the penmanship matches Z, or that because of the awkwardness, it doesn’t?

To be clear, I am saying it is absolutely inconclusive, and evidence of nothing

The awkwardness you point out is one reason and you’ve done an excellent job on that. Writing on the car hood or window might’ve been a better plan.

Another is that drawing large letters is different from printing small ones.

Having seen the writing close up I believe it was Zodiac attempting to print in a weird position. He couldn’t have held the pen in the way he was accustomed, but he still tried to form the words and letters his usual way.

I’ve seen that car door in person and Zodiac must have been rather uncomfortable writing on it. Karmann Ghia’s are low to the ground and the writing on the door went nearly to the bottom. A very awkward way to write. Here’s a video I made: https://youtu.be/ugm8ZRuJ1T4

Good point. To that, I would add that there were three factors at play: 1) a horizontal vs. vertical writing surface; 2) squatting vs sitting; 3) the size of the text. Perform this experiment: write the same phrase on a chalkboard or marker board that you wrote on a piece of paper. Then, change the size of the writing from normal to very, very large. Then, try writing large text while squatting down vs sitting. Your writing will be different each time. I think that adequately explains any differences between the Zodiac letters and the car door.

I was not suggesting multiple offenders – just pointing out that this fact alone razes the ‘multiple offender’ arguments.

Now I don’t understand. You said:

Aside: that person’s freehand writing on that karmann ghia door bears an extraordinary likeness to the penmanship in the known letters submitted by the Zodiac. For those who speculate this case involves multiple different perps, that is a big hurdle.

It seems to me you are saying the writing on the door is strong evidence the guy who wrote it was also Shooter (and confirmed letter writer) Z. I am pointing out the car door has just 18 letters printed on it, which to me is a ridiculously small sample size, and asking you which of 3 "e" examples you think look extraordinarily like Zodiac writing.

I’ve seen that car door in person and Zodiac must have been rather uncomfortable writing on it. Karmann Ghia’s are low to the ground and the writing on the door went nearly to the bottom. A very awkward way to write. Here’s a video I made: https://youtu.be/ugm8ZRuJ1T4

Good point. To that, I would add that there were three factors at play: 1) a horizontal vs. vertical writing surface; 2) squatting vs sitting; 3) the size of the text. Perform this experiment: write the same phrase on a chalkboard or marker board that you wrote on a piece of paper. Then, change the size of the writing from normal to very, very large. Then, try writing large text while squatting down vs sitting. Your writing will be different each time. I think that adequately explains any differences between the Zodiac letters and the car door.

So you can take 18 letters, make all sorts of allowances as to why they are deformed and would be different each time someone would do it…….. and you STILL conclude it was the same guy?

Wow.

So you can take 18 letters, make all sorts of allowances as to why they are deformed and would be different each time someone would do it…….. and you STILL conclude it was the same guy?

Wow.

But it’s very disingenuous to that the handwriting is drastically different. It’s more similar than it is different. And, you’re not accounting for the circumstances…the three factors that I noted, the fact that he was likely amped up with an adrenaline dump from the attacks, he was likely out of breath from walking uphill, and anxious from wanting to get out of the area. And I haven’t seen Hartnell’s door, but there is the possibility that it was covered in dust or that it had paint chips that would lend to poor ink transfer. How can you just ignore all those factors?

So you can take 18 letters, make all sorts of allowances as to why they are deformed and would be different each time someone would do it…….. and you STILL conclude it was the same guy?

Wow.

But it’s very disingenuous to that the handwriting is drastically different. It’s more similar than it is different. And, you’re not accounting for the circumstances…the three factors that I noted, the fact that he was likely amped up with an adrenaline dump from the attacks, he was likely out of breath from walking uphill, and anxious from wanting to get out of the area. And I haven’t seen Hartnell’s door, but there is the possibility that it was covered in dust or that it had paint chips that would lend to poor ink transfer. How can you just ignore all those factors?

You are essentially saying that because writing on a car door was somewhat problematic, that excuses any differences, and had conditions for writing been better, the writing would match Zodiac. Why?

You are starting with a conclusion – that Shooter Z wrote on that door, and making excuses why there are deviations. If the writing matched, you’d say, look, it is virtually identical, so it was Shooter Z. If it is different (it is), you say, well, it was difficult to write so it doesn’t really match, but it’s still Shooter Z. If the sun rises in the east, it’s Shooter Z. If the sun rises in the west, it’s Shooter Z. If the writing matches, or even if it doesn’t, it’s the same guy.

A person who wasn’t locked into a conclusion might look at it this way: The writing has some, but not overwhelming, resemblance to Zodiac writings. The circumstances at LB were problematic as Tom demonstrates, the sample size is absurdly too small to draw conclusions from, and therefore, no conclusions can be made either way.

You are essentially saying that because writing on a car door was somewhat problematic, that excuses any differences, and had conditions for writing been better, the writing would match Zodiac. Why?

You are starting with a conclusion – that Shooter Z wrote on that door, and making excuses why there are deviations. If the writing matched, you’d say, look, it is virtually identical, so it was Shooter Z. If it is different (it is), you say, well, it was difficult to write so it doesn’t really match, but it’s still Shooter Z. If the sun rises in the east, it’s Shooter Z. If the sun rises in the west, it’s Shooter Z. If the writing matches, or even if it doesn’t, it’s the same guy.

A person who wasn’t locked into a conclusion might look at it this way: The writing has some, but not overwhelming, resemblance to Zodiac writings. The circumstances at LB were problematic as Tom demonstrates, the sample size is absurdly too small to draw conclusions from, and therefore, no conclusions can be made either way.

I’m not locked into a conclusion at all. I think Zodiac made it clear that he was the LB attacker with the Halloween Card. It makes no sense whatsoever without that attack. I couldn’t care less about the handwriting. I think the fact that it is as similar as it is only supports the conclusion that LB was not a copycat crime. I also think that minor differences in handwriting are to be expected. We see that across all the Zodiac letters. No two of his letters look entirely similar. The symbol on the hood and the call, especially the wording of the call, all suggest it was the same person that did the BRS shooting. If you disagree, that’s fine. Essentially, your disagreement has to do with an equally a priori belief that Zodiac somehow evolved between crimes. I don’t know that is true at all. He just committed different types of murders that are really not comparable.

FYI, Tahoe completely ditched the imposter theory when she discussed the Halloween card on TV. Later said that she realized it was unpopular, so she let it go. I agree that she raised valid concerns about the cards — I haven’t the foggiest how you could "authenticate" the Crackproof card. (Though Avery claimed they changed their mind later.)

"By knife" had leaked to some out-of-state journalists as early as 1969. I think that tidbit flew under the radar for so long because folks in the microfiche days weren’t scavenging through out-of-state newspapers. So it’s disputable how secret "by knife" really was. Somebody, apparently, was yapping about it (…or Kermit Jaediker was the Zodiac and stupidly outed himself). And if a troll noticed that discrepancy in the reporting, they might be tempted to act on it.

That focusing on one or two particular characters in a sample is something a lot of cranks do. No offense, but I’ve seen it again and again over the years. Usually when they’re trying to rule in a suspect or a dodgy letter. "This ‘n’ is exactly like Zodiac’s — it’s him!" Have to look at the overall picture. And, let’s face it, most people who look at the door will think it resembles Zodiac’s writing, without the aid of a microscope.

P.S. I wasn’t implying that Zodiac always hastily departed from crime scenes. But his overall style was hit-and-run. The only time we know that he lingered after the murder was Stine. (Nope, I’m not counting the car door.)

Inflicting pain was more important than killing at LB. And LB Stabber could easily have done both, had killing been a key part of his agenda.

I’m not freaky enough to be drawn into a prolonged debate about the merits of throat-slitting vs. stabbing, lol. Random points:

– He could have also strangled or suffocated them.

– The act of throat-slitting would be too straightforward and not cathartic enough.

– The fact that (the killer) stopped stabbing Hartnell when he played dead would seem to indicate that the ultimate intention was to kill. Albeit in a horribly painful manner.

– It possibly hadn’t even dawned on him to slit their throats. Maybe PSYCHO was his favorite movie.

– Head-shots are not a sure thing. Google, or don’t, suicide victims who didn’t manage to kill themselves. Why didn’t he fire a bullet into Stine’s heart to be extra sure? The Catch Me Killer fired five bullets into a victim’s skull and she lived to identify him.

– People generally don’t engage in frenzied stabbings with the expectation that the recipient is going to live happily ever after.

– There seems to be an underlying assumption that he’s some kind of cold and methodical killer, when the reality is, he’s a weirdo acting out on a fantasy world that’s adorned with Fangoria posters instead of centerfolds.