The letters make think about what we do NOT see – who is victim #6? Who were #8-11? #13-16?

I doubt that Z bragged with #7 not having killed #6, to be honest..

With an estimated 1,000 homicides in California every year, approximately, it wasn’t that difficult for Z to increase his bodycount..

QT

We know he lied. He was making the number up.

How do you know – I do not, yet?

Remove two non-handwriting communications and the order of his killings is very well one after another? Maybe he killed 100+, how shall we know that being a lie?

QT

The letters make think about what we do NOT see – who is victim #6? Who were #8-11? #13-16?

I doubt that Z bragged with #7 not having killed #6, to be honest..

With an estimated 1,000 homicides in California every year, approximately, it wasn’t that difficult for Z to increase his bodycount..

QT

We know he lied. He was making the number up.

How do you know – I do not, yet?

Remove two non-handwriting communications and the order of his killings is very well one after another? Maybe he killed 100+, how shall we know that being a lie?

QT

We know he lied because he tried to claim responsibility for murders which were subsequently proven to have been committed by someone else. The fact he got numbers in order in his letters is hardly mindblowing. A child could do that.

Which ones?

Yes indeed mccrirck, I would also like to know which ones? The Santa Rosa hitchhiker murders In my mind are connected to the other murders which was why the body count went up to me-37, that was another lie I recon, it should of said Us-37

There were three murders he seemed to claim but the real murderer was caught in about 1971. I cant remember names at the moment but surely you’re aware of this?

Are you referring to the furlong/snoozy murders?

Are you referring to the furlong/snoozy murders?

Thought about those but

a.) wouldn’t add up the bodycount (two victims not only one)
b.) Karl F Werner pleaded guilty to that crime

It is possible, however, that there is not victim #6 but e.g. one victime before Cheri Jo Bates. Assuming (!) she was a second victim of Z, then the body count would add up to 7 perfectly fine.

Rather wondering about the later victims, #8-11 and #13-16..

Potential victims #8 – October 13 – December 20 (1969):

Raphael ‘Ralph’ Norbert Colan, 56, male – a merchant seaman who was shot in Vallejo
Betty (Betsy) Ruth Aardsma, 22, female, Pennsylvania – Richard C Haefner is/was a suspect in this case
Elaine Louise Davis, 17, female, Lafayette / Walnut Creek – disappeared after being at Concord shopping mall – victim #8?

Potential victims #9, #10 – December, 20 – April 20 (1969/1970):

Cindy Lee Mellin, 19, female, Los Angeles / Ventura – unlikely, possibly unrelated
Brian McDonnell – unlikely as Zodiac distanced himself from this bombing on April 20, 1970 (interestingly ‘not his territory’ was just a few blocks South of the Paul Stine crime scene)
Cosette Ann Ellison, 15, female Lafayette / Walnut Creek – unlikely as she was found nude, however near Mount Diablo, Morgan Territory Road – Philipp Joseph Hughes (suspect)
Patricia King, 25, female, Lafayette / Walnut Creek – unlikely as she was found nude, similar area; most likely same assailant as Cosette Ann Ellison – Philipp Joseph Hughes
Judith Ann Hakari, 23, female, Sacramento – she was a nurse, transported from Sacramento to Weimar, near Lake Tahoe, one suspect was of slender build
Marie Antoinette ‘Toni’ Romo Anstey, 24, female, Santa Rosa / Lake County – SRHM victim
Eva Lucienne Blau, 17, female, Santa Rosa – SRHM victim
Patricia May ‘Pat’ Tan 26, female, San Francisco / Mt. Tamalpais

Potential victims #9, #10 – April, 20 – April 28 (1970):

no known victims in California?

QT

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/zodiack … t4192.html
http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=63
https://prettydeathseller.com/2018/08/2 … th-hakari/

Are you referring to the furlong/snoozy murders?

Thought about those but

a.) wouldn’t add up the bodycount (two victims not only one)
b.) Karl F Werner pleaded guilty to that crime

It is possible, however, that there is not victim #6 but e.g. one victime before Cheri Jo Bates. Assuming (!) she was a second victim of Z, then the body count would add up to 7 perfectly fine.

Rather wondering about the later victims, #8-11 and #13-16..

QT

I always thought that victims didn’t necessarily mean murders so :-

1 David Farady
2 Betty Lou Jensen
3 Darlene Ferrin
4 Michael Mageau
5 Cecilia Shepard
6 Brian Hartnell
7 Paul Stine

Then possibly ;-

8 – ?????????????? – December 20, 1969, Melvin Belli letter (‘take my ninth possibly 10th victim’)
Leona Larell Roberts – Abducted 10/12/1969 viewtopic.php?f=37&t=4439

10 – ?????????????? – April 20, 1970, My-name-is / Bus bomb letter
Judith Ann Hakari – Abducted 03/04/1970 viewtopic.php?f=37&t=4487

04/28/70, Dragon card – Reference to victim count or attack.

11 – Donna Lass

12 – RICHARD RADETICH – June 26, 1970, Button letter (‘I shot a man’)

13 – KATHLEEN JOHNS (ESCAPED) – July 24, 1970 – Kathleen Johns letter

07/26/70, Victim count still 13

14 – ?????????????? – October 27, 1970, Halloween card
Nancy Bennallack – Murdered 10/25/1970 viewtopic.php?f=37&t=4478

17 – Cheri Jo Bates – March 13, 1971, I am crackproof letter

I’m amazed people genuinely believe the victim counts in the letters.

I don’t think it is a case of believing the victim count. I think it is more to do with trying to ascertain if he was trying to take credit for crimes which were committed by other people and which crimes they possibly were. This in itself could provide information as to where he was getting information from and possibly where he was based.

I don’t think it is a case of believing the victim count. I think it is more to do with trying to ascertain if he was trying to take credit for crimes which were committed by other people and which crimes they possibly were. This in itself could provide information as to where he was getting information from and possibly where he was based.

it’s also a good view into his psyche. if we can "prove" he was claiming crimes he didn’t commit then that gives us a better idea of his motivations. i’ve always considered him motivated by the notoriety and engagement with the public, and using the attacks as a way to have a voice with the media. i would be even more inclined to think that if it were determined that he was cherry picking crimes that he thought wouldn’t be solved and claiming them as his own. that said, this is pretty much what i figure he was doing outside of the canonical zodiac attacks. once he gained the public status i think he was less interested in committing crimes and more interested in making sure his letters made the front pages.

Ok playing devils advocate, if it was the infamy that he craved why did he not reveal himself until after the 2nd attack ? The attention was obviously a by product of his crimes. I think we can all agree that over time this became the motivating Factor in his work, but this could have been obtained after the first crime and yet he chose to remain silent until the July 4th attack.

Let’s not forget that one the most notorious aspects of the Zodiac was actually created by his own short comings. The hooded costume was not meant to be known about, it was something for him only and his victims only.

Ok playing devils advocate, if it was the infamy that he craved why did he not reveal himself until after the 2nd attack ? The attention was obviously a by product of his crimes. I think we can all agree that over time this became the motivating Factor in his work, but this could have been obtained after the first crime and yet he chose to remain silent until the July 4th attack.

Let’s not forget that one the most notorious aspects of the Zodiac was actually created by his own short comings. The hooded costume was not meant to be known about, it was something for him only and his victims only.

Many of us have our own theories, mine is going along with Darlene’s sister Pam’s belief. And that is that he waited until he killed Darlene to name himself, because she may have given him that name or knew he used that name? There were 10 other murders in Solano county before Darlene. I have no information about any of those , only the count. I also think his count was for only his northern Ca victims, I believe that because of the writing on Hartnell’s car door, he did not give the dates of his southern Ca activity. LE believed he killed to get attention on the front page. That is why they asked the newspapers to not put him on the front page, notice how that upset him? March 13 1971 was when he sent a letter to the LA Times, I believe he drove there in time to read about himself. That is when he mailed his letter from Pleasanton, it is the route to take for that trip.

On Feb 28 -71 VTH wrote an article about Zodiac not being heard from since last Oct and how it was believed that he was either committed,or incarcerated and that on the following Thursday there would be a meeting in LA about Zodiac. I think he read that paper because he actually did live in Vallejo and that was another reason for the March 13th letter. ( I doubt very much that he stopped killing after Paul Stine.) He said he would continue to kill , that he would make them look like accidents, suicides etc. One of my best friends was shot with a 22, was made to look like a suicide. That was Aug, 14th 1978 on my birthday, later two guys I was dating were listed as suicides, as well as two other female friends. If those were Zodiac victims, that adds up to 5.

A tall wall on the corner where I lived in the 1990’s "someone" wrote in large red letters " 7 in arow". Later I was left a murder map listing 7 in Antioch. I took a picture of the 7 in a row, thinking that was his count for northern ca. It was posted here in the Sandy’s POI thread, most of those pictures were removed by photobucket. They can be seen on Zodiackiller.com, under "The Sandy Betts Story".

Many of us have our own theories, mine is going along with Darlene’s sister Pam’s belief. And that is that he waited until he killed Darlene to name himself, because she may have given him that name or knew he used that name?

Damn, I like that theory.

Same here.

I’ve been catching up on various posts (I joined back in 2017 but have been off Zodiac stuff for three years to focus on studying for a degree in English Lit and Creative Writing). Now with the C-19 causing so much havoc, this studying year has ended early (it’s through Open University) and so has given me plenty of free time. Whilst clearing out some old notes regarding my studies I came across my thoughts on the 340 cipher from back then, which has now re-ignited my interest in it all again.

(I was a bit shy three years ago, but after doing degree-level work it has gotten me used to working on forums and doing investigating work, so I hope I don’t miff everyone off by asking about stuff that’s already been asked countless times. Therefore, I’ll try and be original with my ideas or add to what others have put! )

I’m fascinated by your thoughts and feelings Sandy as I would count you as a viable witness, because you are a window to the past for us here in the present. I hope that it will be welcoming if I can bounce some proposals and ideas around in the near future for you to consider, no matter how outlandish some ideas might seem. After all, I think that all alleyways of investigating should be explored if we are going to be walking down them, in order to try and find answers to bring justice for the victims and their families and get the identity of this f%"^!r (excuse the language) known, so ghosts can be laid to rest and justice can be administered.
(At least, that’s the plan!)

In the meantime, I hope everyone is staying safe through these uncertain times and our prayers and thoughts from us here in the UK include all of you stateside and worldwide, because I believe that All Lives Matter.