onewhoknows, Subject: Palm Prints??? Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:20 pm

What can you tell me about palm prints? Does anyone know if there is a MATCH between
the palm prints from the Napa phone booth and the Paul Stine cab?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:27 pm

I was told by persons in law enforcement that no possible Zodiac prints from different scenes match each other.

So based on what I was told the answer is no, any possible palm prints or partial palm prints from the Napa phone do not match any palm prints from the Stine cab.

patinky, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:44 pm

I was told by persons in law enforcement that no possible Zodiac prints from different scenes match each other.

So based on what I was told the answer is no, any possible palm prints or partial palm prints from the Napa phone do not match any palm prints from the Stine cab.

So there are no verified latent prints? Something doesn’t add up in excluding former suspects by a non-match on prints.

Quagmire, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:39 pm

There are lots of partial prints and bits of a palm here or afew fingertips there, etc but not enough complete and duplicated prints for LE to say "the guy that left this print at Napa also left this print on the taxi".

LE just blanket lifted loads of prints and I’m pretty sure they feel that Z left at least some of them, whether it was a a few fingertips from his right hand on the taxi pillar or a thumb print from his left hand on the phone at Napa or a bit of his palm on the Exorcist letter, etc, etc. The odds tell them that at least 1 if not 10 or 20 of the bits of print evidence they have will match some part of Z.

It’s not guaranteed but more of an odds on chance that if Z was one day found, they’d be able to tie at least one part of him to something on file. If a suspect doesn’t match anything at all, I’d say that LE have been 99% happy to agree that he wasn’t at any of the crime scenes.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:03 pm

Different departments, even different investigators, may feel differently about the prints.

I can relate my conversation with Paul Holes, Forensics Chief for the Contra Costa County Sheriff, and one of top forensics men in the country. He was instrumental in linking the DNA from the EAR rapes in North Cal to the ONS murders in South Cal, when the police brass was ruling out a connection. He is also playing a key role in the Naso cold case. His lab contracts with Vallejo, hence that is his Zodiac jurisdiction. He was seen on the History channel TV show talking about the Zodiac case with Mike Butterfield. He has told me he is very interested in the Zodiac case and loves working on cold cases in general, and wishes he could spend more time on them.

I had an hour long discussion with him about my POI. He asked very good questions. He seemed very interested and said he would do certain things to try to include/exclude my POI as Zodiac. At the end of the conversation I decided to bring up the fact that my POI did not match the cab prints or Exorcist letter prints. I figured it was better to be truthful now, since if he didn’t know this, he would find out soon. He said ‘we can’t be certain that there are any true prints from Zodiac on file. Lots of people use a cab.’ I said what about what Graysmith reported, a print on the cab ‘in blood.’? He just said ‘we can’t be certain any of the prints on file are from Zodiac. I would not exclude an otherwise good suspect soley on the basis of a non-match to prints.’

SFPD did not give me those same words, but they have shown interest in this same POI and other departments have made requests of the FBI and federal prison, knowing this suspect does not match the prints. Now another department has never given a substantive response to my emails or calls, so perhaps they have ruled out or ‘back burnered’ this suspect based on prints.

So I think the key words are ‘otherwise good suspect’ and ‘soley’. If there is compelling evidence pointing to a suspect for being Zodiac, most departments on the case will not rule out solely based on prints. If a suspect is a non-match to prints, and say a non-match on handwriting, then they may rule out or back burner him. But even after Allen non-matched on prints they still got 3 seperate search warrants on him.

duckking2001, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:12 pm

Right. With fingers and palms that’s 12 unique prints for every person. If those prints are partial, depending on the quality, they might not get a confirmed match to the same print from two different sources. In other words just because none of the prints matched each other on comparison doesn’t mean that there could not have been more than one print left by the same person.

On the other hand, pun slightly intended, when they are comparing a latent print to a suspects presumably they have a full set of good prints to work with. So if one of the prints belonged to a suspect that they checked, it should have came up with a match.

PS. Actually according to the FBI they have several reports stating that they don’t have palm prints and other types of comparison prints for their suspects so they are unable to compare those against latents from the Z case.

That’s not very encouraging.

PPS. In response to what Wilks just said. I guess they wouldn’t exclude a Zodiac suspect based on prints because they have little hope for solving the case at this point. But without that what do they have? Arguing the hypothetical "anyone could have left those prints" in court is not going to go over well with a jury for a conviction. It would be stupid to try to make a case against a suspect when you have such an obvious dismissal factor like that.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:16 pm

PPS. In response to what Wilks just said. I guess they wouldn’t exclude a Zodiac suspect based on prints because they have little hope for solving the case at this point. But without that what do they have? Arguing the hypothetical "anyone could have left those prints" in court is not going to go over well with a jury for a conviction. It would be stupid to try to make a case against a suspect when you have such an obvious dismissal factor like that.

The ONLY way this case goes to court is if they have a strong full profile DNA match. If they get that the prints will be forgotten.

duckking2001, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:23 pm

Definitely. I was just surprised to hear a police officer say that. You’d expect the defense to argue away the evidence, but it could be a bad move for the prosecution.

I think the truth is that LE at the time pushed so hard on those prints because they were under pressure to be seen as having something productive, when they probably didn’t have as much faith in them as they made it out to seem.

In hindsight we recognize the limitations that they had dealing with forensics back then.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:34 pm

Well all Paul Holes is saying is that he personally will not rule out an otherwise good suspect just because of a non-match on prints. But IF there was a good suspect who matched any of the cab prints and/or a letter print, that would be very compelling evidence. But he and the majority of LE on the Z case are not sure if they have any real Z prints. And I think you are right, at the time when the Zodiac panic was in full swing, the police puffed up the prints quite a bit.

patinky, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:07 pm

… If a suspect is a non-match to prints, and say a non-match on handwriting, then they may rule out or back burner him. But even after Allen non-matched on prints they still got 3 seperate search warrants on him.

That piques my interest. There had to have been a reason for the warrants and there had to be reasonable cause for them to be issued.

AK, are you totally in favor of dismissing Allen? Graysmith aside, I just have trouble totally letting go of Allen. It’s like a really bad marriage.

morf13, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:44 pm

I was told by persons in law enforcement that no possible Zodiac prints from different scenes match each other.

So based on what I was told the answer is no, any possible palm prints or partial palm prints from the Napa phone do not match any palm prints from the Stine cab.

I am not so sure this is the case. I asked NAPA flat out if they have seen or have copies of SFPD’s prints, and he said yes. I asked if the NAPA prints matched SFPD, and he said he would rather not get into that. That makes me think they may match. In addition, I know that NAPA asked people that send prints of suspects, to also include palm prints too.

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:28 pm

And hence my question, as I have been asked to provide palm prints for my POI recently.
I’ve seen pictures of the palm prints from the Taxi, but I don’t think I’ve seen any prints from the Napa
phone. If they have matching palm prints that would be very significant. Can anyone do
some kind of comparison?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:36 pm

Paul Holes told me there was no match and that is in the documents as well.

Allen is IMO ruled out by non-match on handwriting, non-match on appearance/weight and because I don’t believe Cheney’s story. Allen did sexual crimes against children with no overt violence. Zodiac did violent crimes against adults with no overt sexuality.

But if Napa gets reliable DNA, of course I would say why not check it against all suspects, Allen, Gaikowski, Mr. X, Tarrance, anyone.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:33 am

The lack of faith people have in the print evidence is exasperating.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:15 am

The lack of faith people have in the print evidence is exasperating.

I have never seen the prints and I doubt you have. I am not an expert in fingerprints. I asked the expert who has seen them, Paul Holes, and he said no prints match each other and that he personally is not convinced they have a real Zodiac print. So send your complaints to him.

It is very easy to avoid leaving prints. Wear a glove. Even a bare hand making contact with a surface does NOT always leave a print.

When several experiences forensics men and homicide detectives tell me that they would not rule out an otherwise good suspect soley on the basis of a non-match to prints, I believe them. If you don’t that is your right. But they have seen all the evidence. I don’t know why that exasperates you.

And as mentioned above they still sought and got search warrants for Allen after he was a non-match to prints.

There could be a real Z print in there. But it may be the case that there are no real Z prints. If police today rule out suspects based just on a non-match to prints, they could be giving a false clearance to Zodiac. I think if they get a strong DNA profile from Napa, that will be used to rule out or back burner suspects. And I think if they have a very weak suspect who is a non-match to prints, they may back burner him. And if they have a fair to good suspect who is a non-match on prints PLUS a non-match on handwriting, that may be enough to back burner.

morf13, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:23 am

As I recall, Napa got their palm print off of the phone handle that he used to call police after Berryessa. Narlow said "it was so fresh the print guy had to dry it himself in order to take the print". It was hanging off of the receiver, dangling, and not disconnected. The reporter found it like that VERY SOON after Z made the call. I think they are confident, that palm print came from Zodiac. In addition, we are all wondering what kinds of things they could have in evidence for DNA examination…how about this..a still smoking cigarette at the phonebooth??? Just an idea of mine. Whatever Napa has that they are doing DNA testing with, had to be something they took into evidence. Back in 69, I dont know if they would have taken a cigarette butt into evidence, since they didnt know about DNA. Did they have any kind of saliva matching tests or anything like that? Any reason they would take a butt as evidence?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:28 am

Back then they could get blood type from saliva. So they might have snagged a cig.

I have assumed it is most likely Napa is trying to get DNA off the clothesline and maybe clothes of the victims.

KEY.SMITH697, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:54 am

:sunny: GraySmith reported, a print on the cab in blood, clever cartoonist. He was always able to read :study: between the lines.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:31 am

As I recall, Napa got their palm print off of the phone handle that he used to call police after Berryessa. Narlow said "it was so fresh the print guy had to dry it himself in order to take the print". It was hanging off of the receiver, dangling, and not disconnected. The reporter found it like that VERY SOON after Z made the call.

This is where I question things.

I thought those prints were rendered "unusable".

From what I recall, the receiver was NOT found "hanging", but laid on the small shelf beneath the phone. Even Slaight stated he could hear the phone being put down. He wouldn’t hear that if Zodiac left it hanging.

I seem to recall the reporter knowing it was the right phone because he could hear the cops or something (not stating as fact, just going off memory), so is it possible the reporter grabbed the phone to listen and HE left it dangling. ?? Sure would like to think he’d be smarter than that, but it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if he did. They could simply be his prints. Heck, I wonder what he looked like! Driving around with a scanner….maybe he was reporting his own phone call. :suspect: :tongue:

morf13, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:34 am

As I recall, Napa got their palm print off of the phone handle that he used to call police after Berryessa. Narlow said "it was so fresh the print guy had to dry it himself in order to take the print". It was hanging off of the receiver, dangling, and not disconnected. The reporter found it like that VERY SOON after Z made the call.

This is where I question things.

I thought those prints were rendered "unusable".

From what I recall, the receiver was NOT found "hanging", but laid on the small shelf beneath the phone. Even Slaight stated he could hear the phone being put down. He wouldn’t hear that if Zodiac left it hanging.

I seem to recall the reporter knowing it was the right phone because he could hear the cops or something (not stating as fact, just going off memory), so is it possible the reporter grabbed the phone to listen and HE left it dangling. ?? Sure would like to think he’d be smarter than that, but it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if he did. They could simply be his prints. Heck, I wonder what he looked like! Driving around with a scanner….maybe he was reporting his own phone call. :suspect: :tongue:

I will have to go back and watch the documentary. I thought Slaight said he could hear some feminine voices in the background, like people talking. I cant recall if it was hanging off the hook, or dangling, but either way, it was not hung up.

patinky, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:59 pm

Its not that I don’t believe print evidence. My problem is the conflicting information that keeps being bounced around. Plus there’s no way to know via the Internet who really has access to valid information. One seemingly legitimate source says there are partial latent prints and the next says no there has never been a proved latent print that belonged to the Zodiac, and on and on.

The "I feel it in my gut" school of thought isn’t evidence but there seems to be a lot of that thrown in too.

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:12 pm

My personal thought on Zodiac, was that he was very prepared before each crime.
He probably "got off" going through the preparation and the fantasy of acting out.
As well, Zodiac was aware of criminalistics, and would not have randomly left his prints
somewhere. He carefully created a costume, and wore gloves during the Lake Berryessa murder
and then we are to believe he would go to traceable phone booth and just grab the phone with a naked hand?
Maybe, and if someone’s POI matched that phone booth, that would be something.

With regards to the Taxi cab, I have always wondered why Zodiac would get out of the passenger side
of the cab, and go around to the driver’s side and smear his prints in blood, when he never had to go
over to that side of the cab at all? Did he plant some clues? If someone spent years hunting and butchering
large game, would they have a big problem, cutting off a hand perhaps, just to mess with people, and press
it all over the cab? Why take the time and chance of being caught?
If someone’s POI prints matched the Cab that would be important.

But both of these are subject to repeated use by the public.
And yet they want palm prints…

Clovis, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:15 am

With regards to the Taxi cab, I have always wondered why Zodiac would get out of the passenger side of the cab, and go around to the driver’s side and smear his prints in blood, when he never had to go over to that side of the cab at all? Did he plant some clues? If someone spent years hunting and butchering large game, would they have a big problem, cutting off a hand perhaps, just to mess with people, and press it all over the cab? Why take the time and chance of being caught?

Perhaps Zodiac orginally entered the cab on that side and slid over to the right during the ride.

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:22 pm

Zodiac was sitting in the passenger seat next to Paul Stine. The young teen agers watched
from across the street that night, the boy went downstairs to watch from a darkened room.
They said Paul Stine’s head was in Zodiac’s lap. He gets out and wipes down passenger door
outside. Then goes over to the driver’s side, wiping. Now I have to go back and look, any
bloody prints taken from passenger side?

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:44 pm

I’m finding no photos of the passenger side outside of the taxi.
Latent fingerprints are prints we can’t see until a substance is applied.
What happens to latent prints when blood is wiped across them, do they
now appear as bloody prints? Wouldn’t truly bloody prints appear different?
Anyway LE at the time feels the passenger door handle print (palm, no blood)
and the prints in blood on left side of cab are the Suspect’s. How did they match
that up? And once again, after committing murder in San Francisco, why would
Zodiac take the time to go over to the other side of the cab to leave his own prints
in blood everywhere? Does anyone know if blood was found on the door outside on
the passenger side of the cab? By the way, you can see a lot of blood spatter on the
inside of the cab, due to the shooting of Paul Stine. I would expect it to be all over
Zodiac as well.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:57 pm

By the way, you can see a lot of blood spatter on the
inside of the cab, due to the shooting of Paul Stine. I would expect it to be all over
Zodiac as well.

That is something I have always questioned.

There was no exit wound from what I have read so I don’t think you would have a lot of splatter…if any.

morf13, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:59 pm

I dont think there were any prints from the pass side of the cab,only the drivers side between the front & rear doors

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Palm Prints??? Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:17 pm

You can see the blood spatter in the crime scene photos of the cab. Where it is missing
is where the Zodiac was sitting and then left with it covering him. The print evidence shows
everything from Left side of cab, except for one which says passender side door handle.
Perhaps they meant the back door left side. Anyway, no blood on the outside of the passenger
or right side of the cab, proves my point. Did he take the piece of Paul Stine’s bloody shirt, and
rub it around to create the appearance of bloody prints? Are there diffinitive prints made in blood
which match other prints on the cab? Two palm prints on the cab which match?
What, what, what?