I find it much harder to believe that she wanted one of her friends to join her for a quick run into the library to get the books and leave. It was said she asked her friend to go with her to get the books and "study".
Agreed. Libraries have books, like encyclopedias, dictionaries etc., that you can’t check out, you have to use them at the library. Needing to use those type of books would mean she stayed at the Library to study.
Oh I completely agree that she was there to study! Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
In ’66 they moved a bunch of the larger books to the Harvard annex which was located on the alley she was murdered. According to Nightimes "biographies and other large books .. bound periodicals". That area appeared to have study areas. I haven’t been able to confirm this, but I’ve read she had books on the Electoral College in her car. I think it’s plausible that she needed a book located there and was allowed to study it in there, even though it was supposed to be closed. That would explain a lot.
3 hours is a long time to study without looking up, getting up to stretch or go to the bathroom, or going to get another book. I work at a college and even the antisocial ones always look for people they know when they come into a public room. It’s hard to imagine not one student took a study break and noticed her in that 3 hour span unless she was in some kind of hidden away alcove. The thing is, I can’t find any picture or indication that those existed in that RCC library outside of offices or storage. From what I can tell from photo and descriptions, one major study area was the enclosed hallway entering into the library that was crammed with desks. Anyone going in and out would have seen her so that’s out. It’s possible this is where Cheri Jo was seen by the Mexican American young man writing in her notebook if indeed he saw her doing that before it opened and not after. The main room had long communal tables and small desks in the center area at the ends of book shelves. This area was directly in front of the check out desk. Hard to imagine she wouldn’t have been seen there. Head Librarian Bach drew up social study places into the new library plans and I’ve seen photos of that old main room library area with people talking so I think it’s not without merit to consider that that area was particularly social and perhaps Cheri Jo didn’t want to study there because she couldn’t get what she need to done. That she likely wasn’t in these two areas tells us at the very least that she didn’t find them suitable for what she needed to do that night. Maybe someone out there knows if alcoves existed?
I can’t for the life of me figure out why she went down that alley. Even the pictures they showed with the newly installed lights in the follow up Nighttimes magazine article make that alley look terrifying. It’s must have been ridiculously dark. Several interviewed students mentioned how lightless and abandoned that alley felt. The killer would have had to have known that Cheri knew that run off parking was down that alley due to lack of parking spaces and recent construction (they had just closed off a section at the beginning of the month). He would have had to convince her why he didn’t park in the empty spaces by her and have a good reason why he parked out on the back street. I believe that this must contribute to the Riverside Police believing she knew the person she went with because looking at it, it’s hard to believe she would go down that way with a mere acquaintance, let alone a stranger. Then again, maybe she really was just so friendly she went like a "lamb to the slaughter".
It’s easy for us now to fault Cheri’s judgment in going down that dark alley with her soon-to-be killer. At the time, though, she had no reason to suspect her life was in imminent danger, especially if she accompanied someone she knew and trusted. The 60s were not violent as the present, nor as paranoid.
My thought about why she went to the alley way, which was actually a very long driveway between two vacant homes. Once her killer got her away from the car and started to walk towards the vacant homes, he used the knife to force her to walk the rest of the way. He may have told her he wasn’t going to harm her, he just wanted to talk to her for a bit. Then after getting her to where no one could see them, he tells her it is about time, she asked about time for what?
He then tells her: time for you to die. That was what he wrote in the confession letter and I think it was basically the truth about what took place that night. He used a knife, she then went willingly is what he wrote. One other reason that make me believe she was a Zodiac victim , is he phoned the police like Zodiac did in his later crimes.
I believe that he wanted the police to think he was around her age, possibly a student and had asked her out before, but that was just a ruse for him being much older and had never asked her out. He could have been one of the workers sitting where she was walking by , he may have made a comment to her and she ignored him. It doesn’t take much for a crazy insane killer to become enraged when he is ignored.
It is doubtful that it was still daylight when he tampered with her car and waited for her to come out of the library. In spite of what we may think that she left right away after getting her books. He offers to fix her car after she tried to start it, that would not take hours to do. ( The proof is in the pudding so to speak.) She came out from the library about 9 pm when the library closed, her car wont start he offers to fix it, he fools around for a while pretending he is fixing her car. When the coast is clear of witnesses, he offers her a ride home. She excepts the ride, but has to walk to where his car was parked. (The rest is history.) The reason I think he kicked her in the head was she scratched his face. My RH suspect has what looks like a fingernail scratch on his left cheek in the shape of a L.
There were a lot of older students at the time at RCC, particularly for Night School, so you may be on to something there.
I believe that Zodiac was born in 1937 or 38. He would have been 10 yrs older than Cheri Jo.
Also that he was working at RCC as a construction worker and not a student. If you look at all of Zodiac’s crimes and the suspected Zodiac crimes, they were very close to construction going on. All of them except Lake Berryessa. It is a job that could take you anywhere at any time, especially with the way California was growing in the 1960’s.
The high school at Lompoc in Santa Barbara co., where Domingos and Edwards went to school, lots of construction at that school in 1963.
Lake Tahoe, Incline Village, The key’s being built in 1970 when Donna Lass disappeared.
Vallejo and Napa new homes being built, I bought one in 1969.
San Francisco, there were two homes on "Jackson street" being refurbished Oct 1969. It is something I think about and not just because my Honcho suspect worked in Construction.
I did see that the police questioned workers on site on the campus.
I did see that the police questioned workers on site on the campus.
Really? I thought I read everything, but missed that good bit of info. .
Do you remember where you read that? I would love to read the list of workers on that job. A worker would have access to the storage room where the poem was put on the desk.
Lot of conjecture now… and this thread started off so well.
Love the facts…
Dismiss the fantasies… !
Hi,
Does anyone know if it was actually a Studebaker with the "oxidized paint" that was seen the night of the Bates murder? On p. 81 of ZU, Graysmith says it was a "Tucker Torpedo."
I did some research and those two cars could potentially be mistaken for one another. If someone was smart enough to know what a Tucker was, since it was exceptionally rare (only like 50 ever built),
I am wondering how he/she could mistake if for a Studebaker.
Mike
Mike Rodelli
Author, The Hunt for Zodiac; 3.9 stars on Amazon and
In The Shadow of Mt. Diablo: The Shocking True Identity of the Zodiac Killer, a second edition in print format. 4.3 Amazon stars and great Editorial reviews. Twitter:@mikerodelli
Hi,
Does anyone know if it was actually a Studebaker with the "oxidized paint" that was seen the night of the Bates murder? On p. 81 of ZU, Graysmith says it was a "Tucker Torpedo."
I did some research and those two cars could potentially be mistaken for one another. If someone was smart enough to know what a Tucker was, since it was exceptionally rare (only like 50 ever built),
I am wondering how he/she could mistake if for a Studebaker.Mike
I feel like anyone familiar with Torpedoes would be unlikely to mistake one for a Studebaker, because of the third headlight. Though since it was at night, poor lighting could certainly make that harder to see. Did Graysmith cite a source on this?
Hi,
Does anyone know if it was actually a Studebaker with the "oxidized paint" that was seen the night of the Bates murder? On p. 81 of ZU, Graysmith says it was a "Tucker Torpedo."
I did some research and those two cars could potentially be mistaken for one another. If someone was smart enough to know what a Tucker was, since it was exceptionally rare (only like 50 ever built),
I am wondering how he/she could mistake if for a Studebaker.Mike
Only know this (see last page of the article), but would trust it before ZU!
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
The librarians would have been interviewed along with friends and family. A library reconstruction was performed on November 13th 1966, with fingerprints and hair samples taken from the 65 attendees to compare to crime scene evidence. "The participants in the reenactment at the detectives’ request, wore the same clothing and sat in the same seats that they had occupied the Sunday night of the murder. They were also asked to park their cars in the same places they had on the night of October 30. It had been determined that Cheri Jo (or a girl resembling her and in similar clothes) had arrived at the library about 5.40 pm and waited for about 20 minutes for the doors to be opened. The girl apparently entered the library as soon as the doors were opened at 6.00 pm, and checked out the books she had come for."
Nobody is entirely sure what time she left the library, or whether she was with anybody- but it’s likely she left prior to 6.30 pm.
[1] The ‘Inside Detective’ magazine recalled that a Mexican-American student noticed Cheri Jo Bates close to opening time and shortly after- who stated "he knew Cheri Jo Bates and had noticed her in the library the night in question. He said he saw the girl "writing something with a ball point pen" in her blue spiral school notebook." The boy told us he was outside about 5.30 pm, waiting for the library to open at 6, and it was then he saw the girl."
[2] The article continued "However, other students who were acquainted with Cheri Jo said they were in the library between 6.30 and 6.40 pm- and did not see the girl during that time." Neither did Walter Siebert, who stated that "he and a few friends were in the library from 7.15 pm until 9, but did not see Miss Bates, whom they all knew. They said they saw four men dressed in work clothes sitting on a fence across from the spot where Miss Bates’ car was found, but they did not know them."What we can gather by this information, is that Cheri Jo Bates likely arrived around opening time, stayed for a brief period to locate and discharge her books, then left before the library filled up with the majority of the attendees that evening.
Does anyone know what the layout of that library was like? In law school, my law library had tables at various spots behinds the stacks where you could just literally hide out. No would see unless they went to that exact spot because the table was blocked by stacks. When had assignments that had deadlines and didn’t want to be bothered, I would go to those spots to avoid people. Is it possible that she could have just sat in some obscure location to study undisturbed, which might explain why few people saw her in the library? I have never seen a layout of the library. Has anybody?
Below is a link to a website that has photos of the RCC library taken in 1966.
It’s a very small library with very few places someone could "hide" but I think it’s
possible she could have sat in a corner and not be noticed, it’s also possible students
did remember seeing her and reported it to the investigators and that info never made
it to the local news media (I doubt if everyone in the library that night were interviewed
by news reporters) and as we all know RPD is very tight lipped so maybe she was seen and
we just never heard about it.
The Inside Detective article has a male librarian saying he “might have saw her”. A student placing her at the library at 5:30ish. Acquaintances saying they came in around 6:30 and didn’t see her. Her books checked out that night. The magazine reported the police came to conclusion she was there and gone by 6:15. Fwiw, for all the trouble the police went to restaging that night and interviewing everyone, they seemed to have ruled out she was just tucked away unseen.
If she was there to replace her lost bibliography, which seems credible, it’s hard to imagine she wouldn’t have been up and down quite a bit tracking down books.
The Inside Detective article has a male librarian saying he “might have saw her”. A student placing her at the library at 5:30ish. Acquaintances saying they came in around 6:30 and didn’t see her. Her books checked out that night. The magazine reported the police came to conclusion she was there and gone by 6:15. Fwiw, for all the trouble the police went to restaging that night and interviewing everyone, they seemed to have ruled out she was just tucked away unseen.
If she was there to replace her lost bibliography, which seems credible, it’s hard to imagine she wouldn’t have been up and down quite a bit tracking down books.
In the documentary "The Hunt for the Zodiac Killer" former RPD Det. Steve Shumway said that Cheri remained
in the library until shortly AFTER 9 PM, He seemed to be very specific that it was a little after 9 PM which
makes me think RPD knows a lot more about the timeline than they are willing to let us know about.
His statement in the documentary is linked below and starts 7 minutes into the video.
