Have you seen the light at last. Some works of fiction still sell well after hundreds of years.

I should clarify. This explains everything in terms of the name Zodiac and his signature crosshair symbol. I think Z was…. how do I explain this without sounding kooky? He had a Messiah complex and thought he was ushering in the age of Aquarius with his sacrifices.

There is definitely something to it. The astrological element and how it plays into Christian and pagan myths is what this is all about.

I didn’t watch the rest of the movie because it got way too weird, but if you put it into the context of the late 60s, all this new age stuff would have been practically common knowledge, especially in San Fran. it makes sense to me. It also gives some credence to Z being that rare combo of psychopath and downright psychotic. So actually UK i should apologize for getting snarky when you called Z psychotic. I think I was coming at it all wrong. The fact that he derives pleasure from it, in his mind at least, is secondary to the idea that he HAS to do it.

It also adds weight to an occult connection.

ZEITGEIST: THE MOVIE | 2007 (HD) – YouTube

Has anyone seen this? I just got to 15:09 in the movie and got chills.

Here’s a direct link to the portion of video you are referring to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTbIu8Zeqp0#t=14m44s

He had a Messiah complex and thought he was ushering in the age of Aquarius with his sacrifices.

There is definitely something to it. The astrological element and how it plays into Christian and pagan myths is what this is all about.

I saw about as much as you did. I plan to watch the whole thing later this evening. What I did watch does tie into some things that are known Z and some suspected. Perhaps this whole "messiah complex" and the dawning of the "age of aquarius" is what he wants people to believe. Was part of the 60’s and would "sound" rather spooky, if, you were on enough acid trips.

In its simple terms: what is the Zodiac really?

Its birth signs and horoscopes. None of which can be obtained or created without knowing some birth information like a birth date. I do believe one, perhaps two, suspected Zodiac correspondence used a horoscope listing: cancer and Leo.

Soze

I’ve speculated before that Z may very well have been part of the late 60s counter culture/hippie/Aquarius…whathaveya scene to some extent. He exists – as a killer – within that general frame. He relates to it – in his own way. It makes perfect sense that he calls himself “The Zodiac”.

But whether this is because he is – actually – into astrology (and the rest of it), or simply playing on it (as a means to catch the attention of the general public more effectively)…well, that is the real question.

If astrology was important to Z – as a killer – it’s all buried pretty deep. We need to go look for it in the forms of cryptography or steganography – which is always problematic. It raises an obvious question too: Why hide it? If he killed people because he had to, because the stars compelled him to (so to speak), why didn’t he come out and say so? Z’s game, whatever it was, was never about hiding victims, for instance – never about obscuring the nature of the actual crimes.

He left a visible trail behind him both in the shape of crime scenes and subsequent letters/communications. And neither category smacks of either astrology or the occult. If the latter is there, it is – again – hidden, deliberately so. Why?

I should clarify. This explains everything in terms of the name Zodiac and his signature crosshair symbol. I think Z was…. how do I explain this without sounding kooky? He had a Messiah complex and thought he was ushering in the age of Aquarius with his sacrifices.

There is definitely something to it. The astrological element and how it plays into Christian and pagan myths is what this is all about.

I think people give Z too much credit. I do not think he was creative nor had above average intelligence. I think he was a “normal” kind of guy that blended in and had limited friends/interactions with other. He obviously liked movies and plays, because that is where his ideas came from. He never really had an original idea. He just simply put other people’s ideas into his letters. Yes, he came up with one semi-decent cipher; however it did not take long to break and even though it was rumored to have stumped FBI and law enforcement, do we really know that as fact? As far as the 340 cipher I have always leaned more towards it not being a real cipher. (I find Randall’s idea interesting, but I still lean more towards it meaning nothing) I think Z may have made a message and changed the letters to random symbols, but that does not make it a real cipher. I think he just wanted people to spend a bunch of time working on it and had his feelings hurt that the first one was cracked so quickly. I think he likes the idea of knowing that he did write a message in there, but that no one would be able to crack it.

If it is true that Zode used to say “this is the Zodiac speaking” then I think Z had heard about the strange guy that said that and stole that as well. As far as the symbol goes, if it is true about Zode then I think he liked the Zodiac name and saw the watch and decided to use that symbol with the name. Maybe the symbol reminded him of something else, but the watch made it all click. If Zode did not use that phrase then it was probably another random way he came up with it. I do not feel that astrology is related in any way. Z used the name, but never anything else to do with astrology. I also think he had mental health issues that got worse with age and that is why Z sounded like a spoiled little kid in his later letters. I do not give him any credit when it comes to creativity or high intelligence. I feel all he did was prove that he knows how to steal other people’s ideas/sayings.

Keeps getting more interesting.

http://gothamist.com/2013/05/16/nycs_14 … er_clu.php

Yes, he came up with one semi-decent cipher; however it did not take long to break and even though it was rumored to have stumped FBI and law enforcement, do we really know that as fact?

No, we don’t.

There’s no reason whatsoever to believe the cipher would have caused crypto experts (navy or FBI) any insurmountable problems. If the Hardens hadn’t cracked it, the navy (Vallejo sent it to the navy experts) would have.

I do not think he was creative nor had above average intelligence. I do not give him any credit when it comes to creativity or high intelligence. I feel all he did was prove that he knows how to steal other people’s ideas/sayings.

I could write a whole thread on this aspect. I’ll try not to.

I guess it comes down to understanding the definition and context. I think he was very creative just by definition alone. What I couldn’t safely ascribe is gifted, skilled or talented etc. I wouldn’t rule it out though. I get what you’re saying about stealing other people’s ideas but there’s always been a fine line between creativity and plagiarism. There is nothing new. It’s what you do with it that matters.

On the surface yes, he stole a bunch of ideas but he was creative with them. He made it all his own and essentially created a ‘Zodiac’ brand. He even pushed to have "some nice zodiac buttons" made. The mask, the shirt pieces, the flashlight on the gun, the ciphers (not completely sloppy either in their physical construction and layout), the bomb threat with coded map and last, but most certainly not least, the handwriting. Different styles and that’s not as easy as it looks.

Maybe he just got lucky. Maybe he tried a bunch of ideas that worked, for him. In that respect I wouldn’t ascribe creative, as in talented but as a whole I would ascribe it as … well, creative.

I think people give Z too much credit. I do not think he was creative nor had above average intelligence.

The same could be said of police, they failed to catch a guy who all but had tea and scones with them.

He made it all his own and essentially created a ‘Zodiac’ brand.

That’s how I read it too. Or should I say that’s how I like to read it.

And to me this – the way he did just that, created a "brand" of sorts – speaks against the notion that he was genuinely into anything esoteric. It indicates a different kind of personality from someone who considers his "thing" an expression of some kind of belief (an occult one, say).

But I’m skeptical of my own tendency to regard it in this way – if I can put it like that: It’s very convenient for me, very…understandable in a way which perhaps makes it…too neat.

Regarding Zodiac creating his own ‘brand’ so to speak – correct me if I am wrong – I believe he is perhaps the only serial killer, or even murderer to give himself a name and a "logo."

Sure, there are "BTK," "Son of Sam," "The Green River Killer," etc., etc. But these names were created by the media. Zodiac was kind of unprecedented in this respect, IMO.

-glurk

EDIT: I may be wrong. Apparently BTK did in fact name himself, at least according to Wikipedia.

I do not think he was creative nor had above average intelligence. I do not give him any credit when it comes to creativity or high intelligence. I feel all he did was prove that he knows how to steal other people’s ideas/sayings.

I could write a whole thread on this aspect. I’ll try not to.

I guess it comes down to understanding the definition and context. I think he was very creative just by definition alone. What I couldn’t safely ascribe is gifted, skilled or talented etc. I wouldn’t rule it out though. I get what you’re saying about stealing other people’s ideas but there’s always been a fine line between creativity and plagiarism. There is nothing new. It’s what you do with it that matters.

On the surface yes, he stole a bunch of ideas but he was creative with them. He made it all his own and essentially created a ‘Zodiac’ brand. He even pushed to have "some nice zodiac buttons" made. The mask, the shirt pieces, the flashlight on the gun, the ciphers (not completely sloppy either in their physical construction and layout), the bomb threat with coded map and last, but most certainly not least, the handwriting. Different styles and that’s not as easy as it looks.

Maybe he just got lucky. Maybe he tried a bunch of ideas that worked, for him. In that respect I wouldn’t ascribe creative, as in talented but as a whole I would ascribe it as … well, creative.

I see what you’re saying, but I kind of think stealing others ideas and putting them together to make your own is not the most creative way of doing things. Even the hood was copied in a sense (execution style) and as far as the buttons go, buttons were huge at that time so saying he wanted his own was just going along with the times. I think he was definitely lucky there were plenty of mistakes along the way by the police. Z was obviously into theater and plays and I feel like he made the whole thing his own play in a sense, so I guess that takes some creativity, but again he just stole all of his ideas from others. Even the letter writting idea was not original and even though that made him stand out at the time, it was not his idea. Maybe I’m being to hard about his "creativity" because he was a piece of sh*t and I do not want to give him any credit at all. But again just stealing others ideas and putting them together is not the most create thing. And pulling a side my feelings towards him I just don’t think he was the mad genious people want to believe he was. I believe he was of average intellegence and suffered from mental health.