2) Also – he had a hood that he would need to hide after the Hartnel/Shepard incident…and the cops at the Stein murder (if it was Z that they really saw) saw no blood on the Z. Perhaps he stuck the hood and the shirt he wore at the Stein murder inside that weird old school jacket that he wore. This would certainly make him appear to be larger than he was.
margie

He wore no hood at the Stine murder.
1. Lake Herman Road – no eyewitnesses
2. Blue Rock Springs – sketchy details from Michael Mageau, 5’8" ,heavy set, beefy build, 195-200 lbs, but not a reliable eyewitness.
3. Lake Berryessa – description heavyset man, 225-250 lbs in weight and 5’8” – 5’10”, but wore a costume that may have made him appear larger. Hartnell stated "Well I can’t say, because he wasn’t wearing those type of clothes. They were sloppy clothes you know. And he had on this old pair of pleated pants’.
4. Presidio Heights – three eyewitnesses 5’8"-5’9", stocky build. Sighting on Jackson St by Donald Fouke, 5’10" in height, 180-200lbs, barrel chested, pleated pants, tan engineering footwear. May or may not be Zodiac.

Overall average 5’9", around 200 lbs, stocky. But to be honest the descriptions are pretty useless. Michael Mageau unfortunately was not a reliable witness, neither was Kathleen Johns, Bryan Hartnell was the best eyewitness but the killer wore a costume, but he was a bad judge of height, I doubt the accuracy of the Presidio Heights sketch, from 60 feet at 9.58 pm at night and Donald Fouke may or may not have seen the Zodiac. So all in all, it proves the case that eyewitness testimony is wholly unreliable. All we really have is a man that is of average height, slightly overweight, that pretty much accounts for millions of people.

Hard to tell with Mageau. He certainly isn’t a rock solid eyewitness, which is understandable given the circumstances. There are discrepancies in his testimony, no doubt – what he says doesn’t add up if taken at face value. Very difficult to assess which is which, though. Is he mistaken about what he, himself did (and in what order), or about what he actually saw?

I’m inclined to think more the former, less the latter. If he says the assailant wore a t-shirt, for example, I see no reason to doubt this. Mageau emphasizes the detail that Z was beefy, not blubbery – which isn’t something one can easily explain away by pointing to either his condition or a possible willingness to please the investigators.

The unshapely/baggy-attire-as-disguise angle is one I’ve considered myself many times. But Mageau is a huge problem here. He observed his assailant wearing a t-shirt – and unless we doubt that particular part of his testimony (which is much more problematic than doubting his general status as a witness), we have to conclude that Z was a bulky guy (though not necessarily an overweight one).

I totally forgot that MM said he was wearing a t-shirt. I think that Z must have hid items in his clothes and wore baggy clothes to alter his appearance a bit…but he had nothing to hide at the MM incident…and you can’t hide your bod in a T much either.

Also – UKSpycatcher – you said "He wore no hood at the Stine murder." … I didn’t word that the best way. I meant he wore one at the Harnell/Shepard attack and may have hid his hood inside the jacket. He also may have taken off his short at the Stein murder and hid that in his jacket as well.

Come to think of it now though…at the Hartnell/Shepard attack he shouldn’t have been hiding anything inside his jacket during the attack…just may have hid things after (the hood/gun/rope/knife)…

Yes – I don’t give much weight to the eyewitness accounts. Personally I believe we are only going to catch Z through the way he did things and the way that he wrote and misspelled things in the lettters..not what someone in extreme terror recalls that he looks like. I myself think that the Z himself is the copycat. He has no ‘self’…so he copies others. Most ‘serial killers’ "ACT" how they perceive a normal person acts. They DO what they see normal people doing. They do not feel how a normal person feels. There whole life is an act – case and point Ted Bundy. Ted wanted to be someone that everyone looked up to and was in awe of. So he did things that other people did (went to law school and worked in politics) but he never was able to accomplish his goal. So he killed for whatever pain that eased for him. Z is copying other ‘serial killers’ (writing letters much as Jack the Ripper had) and comic book villains (making and wearing the hood – maybe also copying the Phantom Killer by wearing it). In his real life…he was no one.

Ramble complete.

we have enough credible witnesses to say that he was a stocky guy. Not obese perhaps, but not thin either.

I’ve never been convinced at all by the doubts about the PH composite. It’s a good sketch drawn from multiple witnesses who got a good look at him. Combine the two and our guy has that face on a stocky/slightly overweight body.

we have enough credible witnesses to say that he was a stocky guy. Not obese perhaps, but not thin either.

I’ve never been convinced at all by the doubts about the PH composite. It’s a good sketch drawn from multiple witnesses who got a good look at him. Combine the two and our guy has that face on a stocky/slightly overweight body.

There’s a thread here someplace with a bunch of variations on the sketches with fuller faces etc

I’m curious how he carried everything under his windbreaker to and from the Stine crime scene. Maybe, as was suggested, this contributed to Zodiac’s stocky look. He would have his gun, and maybe a spare clip. And room for a towel or large rag to wipe the cab down with if he wasn’t using a piece of Stine’s shirt. Maybe there was a large pocket sewn on the inside of the jacket to accomodate this stuff.

Drew,

It wouldn’t be unheard of for someone to have pockets sewn into their jacket. There was a man named Barry Landau that stole historical documents and he had sewn large pockets inside his jackets so that he could smuggle the documents out of libraries and such.

Z sewed a symbol on his hood…so who know what else he did. I think that is a totally feasible idea. He had to carry the gun/rope/knife from the lake attack somehow. And at least after the Stine murder you would think that he would have had to put the gun somewhere out of site. Perhaps he did have a towel/rag with him as well.

Well..I don’t know how much closer to Z this gets us…probably as close as we ever have been…but it might jog a memory if someone noticed that there ‘stepfather’ (lol) had coats with big pockets.

I’m curious how he carried everything under his windbreaker to and from the Stine crime scene. Maybe, as was suggested, this contributed to Zodiac’s stocky look. He would have his gun, and maybe a spare clip. And room for a towel or large rag to wipe the cab down with if he wasn’t using a piece of Stine’s shirt. Maybe there was a large pocket sewn on the inside of the jacket to accomodate this stuff.

To the scene all he would have needed to do was tuck his gun in his pants…in the waistline. Or maybe he even had a holster like cop would have. No extra room needed. Stine’s wallet and keys could simply go in his pockets. Imo.

I’m not a gun guy… I always thought that sticking your gun in your trouser band seemed like a bad idea. Possible safety issues aside, wouldn’t it fall down and end up stuck in your pantleg by your shoe? haha, sorry.

I’m not a gun guy… I always thought that sticking your gun in your trouser band seemed like a bad idea. Possible safety issues aside, wouldn’t it fall down and end up stuck in your pantleg by your shoe? haha, sorry.

That is what tighty-whities are for.

If you’re going to be out in public and walking around, I don’t know if having the gun in your waistband is the best idea. Like, Margie said, Z displayed his handiwork at Lake B. with the hood so he could have easily created some interior pockets on his windbreaker. Maybe he wrapped the gun in a rag and just put it in an interior pocket on the front of his jacket.

If you’re going to be out in public and walking around, I don’t know if having the gun in your waistband is the best idea. Like, Margie said, Z displayed his handiwork at Lake B. with the hood so he could have easily created some interior pockets on his windbreaker. Maybe he wrapped the gun in a rag and just put it in an interior pocket on the front of his jacket.

I agree anything is a possibility. For sure. But a gun is an easy thing to conceal…that’s all I meant.

Agree with you there, Tahoe. I guess I tend to see Z as someone who obsessively planned out his attacks, leaving nothing to chance.

I think it’s quite likely he planned pretty well ahead in terms of where to conceal his weapon and such details – but with Stine this wasn’t a major problem, as mentioned above. All you need is a pocket, really – unless you’re wearing an insanely tight jacket, which he wasn’t. The things he took with him from the crime scene were all easy to conceal.

On a side note of sorts, it’s actually possible to walk around pretty normally with a gun stuck down your pants – it’s not optimal, but it’s definitely doable. But, again, he didn’t have to resort to this. There are all sorts of very plausible alternatives – from a holster to simply using the possibly quite roomy pockets of your windbreaker.