morf13, Subject: Zodiac print evidence Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:08 pm

I had asked an agent from the CA D.O.J. who is working with the Zodiac case about Zodiac’s prints, (the cab prints), and wether or not they had been entered into a national databse, and was shocked and sickened by what he told me.

His reply- "I do not believe that any of the fingerprints recovered from the crime scenes are in the national data base"

My question is, WHY NOT?

Nin, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:37 pm

I had asked an agent from the CA D.O.J. who is working with the Zodiac case about Zodiac’s prints, (the cab prints), and wether or not they had been entered into a national databse, and was shocked and sickened by what he told me.

His reply- "I do not believe that any of the fingerprints recovered from the crime scenes are in the national data base"

My question is, WHY NOT?

Or..were they lost?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/fin … story.html

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:13 pm

Either way, LOST or NEVER ENTERED, is not good.

Nin, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:24 pm

Either way, LOST or NEVER ENTERED, is not good.

Agree. And then there is also this way of "dealing" or possibly "not dealing" with possible multiple charges:

, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:27 am

Your SAC Cincinnati stands for FBI’s Special Agent-In-Charge.

It is Federal policy not to allow any entrances into the Federal database of any fingerprints not positively identified with a subject.

The partial cab print cannot be conclusively traced to the killer, although mostly likely it may be. That is not reason enough to enter the print for comparison.

It can be matched against records in the system of suspects. The partial print would have to be submitted, which I am sure it already has. But to ENTER the partial print – can’t be done. There is a difference between sending a print for comparison and entering it in the permanent database.

There are no other prints I know of that are definately Zodiac’s, so they cannot be entered.

That should answer the question.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:38 am

There are no other prints I know of that are definately Zodiac’s, so they cannot be entered.

We have the palm prints from the Exorcist Letter and some from the Napa phone booth. The former strike me as being likelier than the latter. Unfortunately, palm printing is not routinely done and we’ll thus have nothing to compare it to.

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:21 am

There are no other prints I know of that are definately Zodiac’s, so they cannot be entered.

We have the palm prints from the Exorcist Letter and some from the Napa phone booth. The former strike me as being likelier than the latter. Unfortunately, palm printing is not routinely done and we’ll thus have nothing to compare it to.

A Napa Detective told me that obviously, since it was from a public phone, that those prints could belong to anybody.

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:45 am

I had asked an agent from the CA D.O.J. who is working with the Zodiac case about Zodiac’s prints, (the cab prints), and wether or not they had been entered into a national databse, and was shocked and sickened by what he told me.

His reply- "I do not believe that any of the fingerprints recovered from the crime scenes are in the national data base"

My question is, WHY NOT?

Are you sure that he didn´t mean that there was never any match between any of the fingerprints, recovered from the crime scenes, and those fingerprints avaible in the national data base?
Just a thought.

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:49 am

I had asked an agent from the CA D.O.J. who is working with the Zodiac case about Zodiac’s prints, (the cab prints), and wether or not they had been entered into a national databse, and was shocked and sickened by what he told me.

His reply- "I do not believe that any of the fingerprints recovered from the crime scenes are in the national data base"

My question is, WHY NOT?

Are you sure that he didn´t mean that there was never any match between any of the fingerprints, recovered from the crime scenes, and those fingerprints avaible in the national data base?
Just a thought.

No, I asked him point blank that if Z was arrested today and his prints were entered into the system, would they get a match against the prints on Stine’s cab? He then said no, that the possible prints in the Z case were not entered into the system. Maybe what somebody posted a little further back is true, that they didnt enter prints into it unless they had a positive ID on a person.

, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:25 am

I had asked an agent from the CA D.O.J. who is working with the Zodiac case about Zodiac’s prints, (the cab prints), and wether or not they had been entered into a national databse, and was shocked and sickened by what he told me.

His reply- "I do not believe that any of the fingerprints recovered from the crime scenes are in the national data base"

My question is, WHY NOT?

Or..were they lost?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/fin … story.html

Nin, Morf,

Something sounds fishy here. I have sent copies to each crime area SF, Vallejo, Napa, Bencia. They now want the originals sent to the Dept of Justice…. What do you think? i’m a little concerned… private e-mail me please….

Nin, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:35 am

..

Nin, Morf,

Something sounds fishy here. I have sent copies to each crime area SF, Vallejo, Napa, Bencia. They now want the originals sent to the Dept of Justice…. What do you think? i’m a little concerned… private e-mail me please….

Copies of what?

-Nin

KEY.SMITH697, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:40 am

:scratch: Simply Extraordinary, No Fingerprints in the National Data Base? They maybe {Zodiacs} maybe not? The DNA, is a maybe? The handwriting, maybe, maybe… not :confused: [What a Insult to Injury] So…. Morf13 Please, clear this up for me, I’m really lost now. What proof do we have?[EVIDENCE] I always thought, the Writing, ie [LETTER’S] would be the proof. We really need Robert GraySmith, :cheers: he is our only hope. :study: Because, the higher-ups can’t help us. :scratch: Seems to me, this case was handle wrong right from the start. I’m sickened as well, Morf13. :pale: [But, not surprised] What can we do? Take a Quarter and Toss it. The Quest 4 The Holy Grail can’t come to a end! :king: :queen: knights of the round table. We most keep seeking,The Phantom of The Bay :suspect:

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:14 pm

A Napa Detective told me that obviously, since it was from a public phone, that those prints could belong to anybody.

They were fresh when found, though, and the phone was still off the hook, indicating that the last person to use the phone left them there.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:32 pm

A Napa Detective told me that obviously, since it was from a public phone, that those prints could belong to anybody.

They were fresh when found, though, and the phone was still off the hook, indicating that the last person to use the phone left them there.

And maybe that is exactly why he chose that phone…he saw someone else was using it. Then he walked up and held it by the cord.

Do we really think Zodiac would be that stupid to just grab the phone with bare hands?

The thing is, there is NO proof any of the prints anywhere are Zodiacs. Even ones on the letters. Until you catch the guy, it’s all assumptions. Do prints based off of assumptions get put into a National Database possibly letting a killer walk free because the prints weren’t his? I sure hope not!

Now, if you had matching prints from the various crime scenes and/or letters, THAT would be different.

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:48 pm

I had asked an agent from the CA D.O.J. who is working with the Zodiac case about Zodiac’s prints, (the cab prints), and wether or not they had been entered into a national databse, and was shocked and sickened by what he told me.

His reply- "I do not believe that any of the fingerprints recovered from the crime scenes are in the national data base"

My question is, WHY NOT?

Or..were they lost?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/fin … story.html

Nin, Morf,

Something sounds fishy here. I have sent copies to each crime area SF, Vallejo, Napa, Bencia. They now want the originals sent to the Dept of Justice…. What do you think? i’m a little concerned… private e-mail me please….

Well, I spoke directly to the Department of Justice Agent. It would not surprise me if he was wrong or or didnt know wll the facts.

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:53 pm

A Napa Detective told me that obviously, since it was from a public phone, that those prints could belong to anybody.

They were fresh when found, though, and the phone was still off the hook, indicating that the last person to use the phone left them there.

And maybe that is exactly why he chose that phone…he saw someone else was using it. Then he walked up and held it by the cord.

Do we really think Zodiac would be that stupid to just grab the phone with bare hands?

The thing is, there is NO proof any of the prints anywhere are Zodiacs. Even ones on the letters. Until you catch the guy, it’s all assumptions. Do prints based off of assumptions get put into a National Database possibly letting a killer walk free because the prints weren’t his? I sure hope not!

Now, if you had matching prints from the various crime scenes and/or letters, THAT would be different.

There is obivously a bunch of ‘possible’ or ‘suspected’ Z finger prints and palm prints. They have come from envelopes he mailed, phones he used, etc. Why not cross reference them against each otehr and see if any of them match? Maybe they did that? The point is, if they really think the bloddy print is Zodiac’s, then why not enter it into the database? Maybe they would match it up against prints from another crime, or maybe match it up to a suspect?

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:58 pm

I think it’s because there is no proof they are Zodiac’s.

Let’s say they put in the prints and nothing matches up. Are these guys now free and clear as suspects?

What’s the point if they don’t know for sure and THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW 100% THOSE ARE ZODIACS’S.

Now, IF the killer is caught and the prints ARE HIS, then BAM–he can be placed at the scene of the crime. But using unknown prints to clear suspects…

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:12 pm

I think it’s because there is no proof they are Zodiac’s.

Let’s say they put in the prints and nothing matches up. Are these guys now free and clear as suspects?

What’s the point if they don’t know for sure and THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW 100% THOSE ARE ZODIACS’S.

Now, IF the killer is caught and the prints ARE HIS, then BAM–he can be placed at the scene of the crime. But using unknown prints to clear suspects…

Didnt they already use these prints to clear hundreds of suspects? All of the FBI files we have seen, in which police sent the FBI prints of suspects to be compared against Zodiac’s. They were using the cab prints I believe. If they were good enough to clear hundreds of suspects, then why are they not good enough to be entered into the database? To me, for the authorities to simply say "the prints may not be Zodiac’s, so lets not put them into the database" would be a mistake.. But what if they were Zodiac’s, and he has committed other crimes, or his prints are in the database, and they get a match? Worst case scenario, you use the prints off the cab, and if it matches a EMT, police officer, etc who was at the scene of the crime that processing the scne, and the victim, then you can rule them out…no harm, no fail. But if a print matches a guy named Joe Blow from Vallejo, and had no business being at the scene of the crime that night, then they suddenly would have a suspect. I think the bloody print is the most reliable, because Palisetti approached the cab before anybody else got there or tampered with it. There is very, very little chance that somebody touched that cab after Zodiac left, and before Palisetti arrived. So therefore, it most likely is Zodiac’s. The smart thing would have been for them to round up every cop & paramedic on scene the night of the Stine murder, and checked each one’s prints against the bloody print. If none of them matched, then we know the print is likely Zodiac’s. Maybe they did do that.

sandy betts, Subject: Bloody print Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:59 pm

I agree Morf, I thought that they did compare everyone else’s prints at the scene, to make sure that was the zodiac’s bloody print ?
I still want to know why they assumed that the gloves left in the cab, couldn’t belong to the zodiac, just because they were small ?
Did they think that, because of the supposed size of the Lake B. killer ? Again ,the Napa case I believe screwed up the entire case. After that, they seemed to disregard every suspect that was shorter than 6 feet.
Even when Phillips became a suspect, as soon as LE saw his size, he was dismissed. How many others got off because they were short ?
There are some LE who still believe that there were two Zodiac’s working in tandem, I also believe at least two, that is why so much confusion, which works in their favor.
When I was at Napa sheriffs dept in 1990, they showed me a full set of prints they had on Zodiac. Of course the person I spoke to was Bill White Jr. Of which I have very little respect for as a Det. His father was one of the first to be at the Lake B crime scene, who couldn’t remember if Hartnell said Deer lodge Montana, or some place in Colorado ?

The sweaty prints I do believe were left by the Z. He wasn’t worried about leaving prints ,because perhaps he didn’t think that the police would find the phone, before it would be used by someone else ? Maybe that was why he left it off the hook, thinking that way it couldn’t be traced ?
If he was never printed ever ,for a arrest or any other reason, he had no worry, he was confident that he wouldn’t be caught to compare his prints anyway. That is the mind of most serial killers , they think they are smarter than everyone else. I think he had more luck than smarts.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:11 pm

I think it’s because there is no proof they are Zodiac’s.

Let’s say they put in the prints and nothing matches up. Are these guys now free and clear as suspects?

What’s the point if they don’t know for sure and THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW 100% THOSE ARE ZODIACS’S.

Now, IF the killer is caught and the prints ARE HIS, then BAM–he can be placed at the scene of the crime. But using unknown prints to clear suspects…

Didnt they already use these prints to clear hundreds of suspects? All of the FBI files we have seen, in which police sent the FBI prints of suspects to be compared against Zodiac’s. They were using the cab prints I believe. If they were good enough to clear hundreds of suspects, then why are they not good enough to be entered into the database? To me, for the authorities to simply say "the prints may not be Zodiac’s, so lets not put them into the database" would be a mistake.. But what if they were Zodiac’s, and he has committed other crimes, or his prints are in the database, and they get a match? Worst case scenario, you use the prints off the cab, and if it matches a EMT, police officer, etc who was at the scene of the crime that processing the scne, and the victim, then you can rule them out…no harm, no fail. But if a print matches a guy named Joe Blow from Vallejo, and had no business being at the scene of the crime that night, then they suddenly would have a suspect. I think the bloody print is the most reliable, because Palisetti approached the cab before anybody else got there or tampered with it. There is very, very little chance that somebody touched that cab after Zodiac left, and before Palisetti arrived. So therefore, it most likely is Zodiac’s. The smart thing would have been for them to round up every cop & paramedic on scene the night of the Stine murder, and checked each one’s prints against the bloody print. If none of them matched, then we know the print is likely Zodiac’s. Maybe they did do that.

Yes–they did use them to clear hundreds of suspects…and that is very unfortunate imo, but it wasn’t on prints alone.

I don’t think a National Data Base is meant for random prints off taxi cabs or phone booths, but I surely don’t know. Can you imagine if they took prints from all sorts of sites not knowing if they were even from criminals, just to see if some matched? Especially in 1969.

I believe the print guys showed up a while after the emt’s etc. Surely the number one priority would be assessing Paul Stine and getting to him would be top priority. I’d bet money, especially considering the location of the "bloody print", that it was medical personell, which I do not believe all were checked.

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:16 pm

I had asked an agent from the CA D.O.J. who is working with the Zodiac case about Zodiac’s prints, (the cab prints), and wether or not they had been entered into a national databse, and was shocked and sickened by what he told me.

His reply- "I do not believe that any of the fingerprints recovered from the crime scenes are in the national data base"

My question is, WHY NOT?

Are you sure that he didn´t mean that there was never any match between any of the fingerprints, recovered from the crime scenes, and those fingerprints avaible in the national data base?
Just a thought.

No, I asked him point blank that if Z was arrested today and his prints were entered into the system, would they get a match against the prints on Stine’s cab? He then said no, that the possible prints in the Z case were not entered into the system. Maybe what somebody posted a little further back is true, that they didnt enter prints into it unless they had a positive ID on a person.

Ok, I understand, thanks Morf.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:43 pm

I still want to know why they assumed that the gloves left in the cab, couldn’t belong to the zodiac, just because they were small ?

Funny thing is, the DOJ report about the Zodiac crimes mentions the gloves as though they ARE Zodiac’s and thus a valid piece of evidence.

No prints = no suspect can be ruled in or out by any standard. Let’s give up and go home.

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:25 pm

I still want to know why they assumed that the gloves left in the cab, couldn’t belong to the zodiac, just because they were small ?

Funny thing is, the DOJ report about the Zodiac crimes mentions the gloves as though they ARE Zodiac’s and thus a valid piece of evidence.

No prints = no suspect can be ruled in or out by any standard. Let’s give up and go home.

Yeah, if those cab prints are not Zodiac’s, then they might as well close the case, because there is little else to go on. What else is there, suspect DNA, etc?

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:46 pm

I still want to know why they assumed that the gloves left in the cab, couldn’t belong to the zodiac, just because they were small ?

Funny thing is, the DOJ report about the Zodiac crimes mentions the gloves as though they ARE Zodiac’s and thus a valid piece of evidence.

No prints = no suspect can be ruled in or out by any standard. Let’s give up and go home.

If they were Zodiac’s gloves, it boggles my mind why he would leave bloody prints, bloody hell! lol

I do believe there are other ways to find someone guilty. What about BRS? No prints, but there must be another way to prove his guilt. Would they not be able to convict him for BRS??

??

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:12 pm

It isn’t always easy to handle a gun with gloves on, Tahoe, especially if the gloves are thick. Perhaps Zodiac found them cumbersome at the last minute and took them off, then forgot all about them in the adrenaline rush he had after killing Paul.

Blue Rock Springs is linked to all the other Zodiac crimes by virtue of them being committed by the same perp. The print evidence in the other crimes (including those found on the Zodiac letters) should therefore be admissible for prosecuting the Blue Rock Springs shooting.

, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:33 pm

Let’s try again…….

The National Database is for the use of Federal LE agencies, (FBI, NCIS, IRS, SECRET SERVICE, NSA, Homeland Security, etc) and is for the purpose of matching obtained evidence or suspects against what is in the database.

Therefore, the fingerprints MUST be identified with a specific person or they will not be entered – they are USELESS.

On the other hand, if the Z was apprehended tomorrow, he would be fingerprinted, and entered into the system. Further, any fingerprints gathered as evidence, but not identified COULD and probably would be sent to the FBI, who administers the Database and checked against what is in the file. 60 years ago, it took about a month – today, it can be done very quickly, thanks to computers.

Local police can get anything out of the National Database by contacting the FBI.
They can submit fingerprints they just made of someone and have the answer very quickly. Such procedures were not available in 1950.

In an unrelated matter, someone PM’d me and asked how long I was in intelligence, and if I was there when the cyphers were submitted by Z.

NIS (later NCIS in 1996) stands for Naval Investigative Service, not Intelligence. (NCIS is Naval Criminal Investigative Service). The Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) is the agency that is on par with the CIA and NSA. The saying "Once ONI, always ONI applies." I never worked for ONI! ONI, together with CIA and NSA worked on the cyphers, only to have egg in their face when a high school teacher decoded it.

All the agencies wanted the worksheets used for the solution.

ONI, CIA and NSA has a top secret budget and MO that only a few people know about. Yes, they also access the Database, if needed. They can do just about anything all other LE’s are prohibited from.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:46 am

It isn’t always easy to handle a gun with gloves on, Tahoe, especially if the gloves are thick. Perhaps Zodiac found them cumbersome at the last minute and took them off, then forgot all about them in the adrenaline rush he had after killing Paul.

Blue Rock Springs is linked to all the other Zodiac crimes by virtue of them being committed by the same perp. The print evidence in the other crimes (including those found on the Zodiac letters) should therefore be admissible for prosecuting the Blue Rock Springs shooting.

I do agree it would be hard to shoot the gun with the gloves on.

I do wonder though, why wear them at all? Guess he could have just had cold hands, but if his sole purpose was to prevent prints, it would seem those gloves would have been a well thought of addition and while he might have taken them off to shoot, and forgot about them, getting out and leaning on the outside of the cab with blood-soaked hands seems not as likely, imo, but it certainly could have happened that way.

I’m not meaning to argue that they aren’t Zodiac’s, just that there is the possibility they aren’t. Truly, there the only proof will be when/if the guy is caught.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:48 am

…and thanks for clearing that up Trainmaster.

, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:03 am

[url= http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=169&u=16737055 ][/url]

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:27 pm

There was more than one bloody print? I don’t recall that.

It just confuses me really. If Zodiac got out to wipe up the fingerprints he left all over the cab BEFORE he got into it, he was very aware of leaving prints, so why then leave bloody prints on it when he is wiping it up? Being in a hurry doesn’t cut it for me.

So clever as to evade capture after killing people, leaving witnesses, calling LE, writing letters, but sloppy enough to leave bloody prints and prints in general.

So frustrating!

But Kevin, it’s good YOU believe that bloody print is Zodiac’s because it should give you an answer about Bujok!

(oh yah–Zodiac said he killed a couple of guards)

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:03 pm

"What a wicked web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."
Unless we have some prints from more than one source, then we
really aren’t sure whose prints they are. But I do wonder if anyone
has ran the prints from any of the crimes recently, through the data
base. I postulated once, to the horror, of another Z webmaster, that
Zodiac may have cut off fingers from another person, and was planting
the prints as he claimed, at the Stine murder.
Try covering your finger tips with model glue,
see if it works. He may have made a mistake, but he was very aware of
leaving fingerprints.
By the way, do any of you ever worry that he is
reading and watching?

, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:10 am

"What a wicked web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."
Unless we have some prints from more than one source, then we
really aren’t sure whose prints they are. But I do wonder if anyone
has ran the prints from any of the crimes recently, through the data
base. I postulated once, to the horror, of another Z webmaster, that
Zodiac may have cut off fingers from another person, and was planting
the prints as he claimed, at the Stine murder.
Try covering your finger tips with model glue,
see if it works. He may have made a mistake, but he was very aware of
leaving fingerprints.
By the way, do any of you ever worry that he is
reading and watching?

No, I think he’s dead….

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:29 am

We DO have prints from more than one source. We have some from the cab, some from the phone booth and some from the letters (the letter prints include three palm prints that only the writer could have left).

And the ‘severed finger’ theory has been debunked. Live fingers leave prints due to the fact that they secrete skin oils. A dead finger can’t do that; the secretory mechanisms will only work for a very short time after death. The only way you can leave prints with a dead finger is if it was very freshly severed, or if you dip the finger in a medium like paint or ink.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:31 am

But if it is a bloody print, does it need oils?

I mean, one could take a leaf and dip it in blood and press it up against something and it would leaf a leaf print wouldn’t it?

I get the kind you have to dust for, but blood would be different I think.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:09 am

Well, that could work, yes. But it doesn’t explain the prints on the letters.

bentley, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:14 am

The prints with blood traces were found on the post between front and rear windows, driver’s side. If Z was going to plant prints, why not put them on the dash board, seat or door he actually got out of? He had no idea he was being watched on the driver’s side of the car by the Robbins kids, no reason to think the cops would be looking for prints on that driver’s side window post. Kill a cabbie, take his wallet, exit the right side of the vehicle, that’s where the fake prints go, not while you’re standing in the street afterward. I think the prints were unintentional, done while reaching in to mop up inside.

Nin, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:17 am

We DO have prints from more than one source. We have some from the cab, some from the phone booth and some from the letters (the letter prints include three palm prints that only the writer could have left).
..

FBI, SFPD,VPD:

-Latent fingerprints found on the Vallejo Times-Herald letter of July 1969

– 1 fingerprint on p2 of SF Examiner letter of August 1969

– 1 fingerprint on p3 of same

– Latent impression lifts #1 thru 35 taken from Napa Phone Booth; four were still damp, indicating that the killer left them

– Thirty latent fingerprints, three latent palm prints, and one latent impression, "Suspect’s latent lifts," "latent prints that show traces of blood … believed to be prints of the suspect"
from Stine’s cab. These were checked against Paul Stine (one match) and two suspects whose names have been blacked out.

– Latent prints on SF Chron letter of 10-13-69

– Latent fingerprints on SF Chron letter or 4-28-70. According to SFPD Insp, probably Toschi, "the latents were not made by persons handling the card after its receipt."

– Latents on envelope of same, "may have been made by personnel of the Post Office Department and Chronicle."

, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:48 am

The prints with blood traces were found on the post between front and rear windows, driver’s side. If Z was going to plant prints, why not put them on the dash board, seat or door he actually got out of? He had no idea he was being watched on the driver’s side of the car by the Robbins kids, no reason to think the cops would be looking for prints on that driver’s side window post. Kill a cabbie, take his wallet, exit the right side of the vehicle, that’s where the fake prints go, not while you’re standing in the street afterward. I think the prints were unintentional, done while reaching in to mop up inside.

Good post…..I’ll bet you $100 dinner they are Donald Bujok’s…

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:37 am

I will take that bet Kevin….of course, this is one time I would be happy to be wrong.

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:39 am

Can somebody post the Cheri Bates print reports here? Would love to see them here. Also, would seem like common sense to compare them to Zodiac’s. Did they ever do that?

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:52 pm

Well, that could work, yes. But it doesn’t explain the prints on the letters.

Yes….I do think there is at least one goof in there somewhere, and probably a Z print or two on something.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:58 pm

The prints with blood traces were found on the post between front and rear windows, driver’s side. If Z was going to plant prints, why not put them on the dash board, seat or door he actually got out of? He had no idea he was being watched on the driver’s side of the car by the Robbins kids, no reason to think the cops would be looking for prints on that driver’s side window post. Kill a cabbie, take his wallet, exit the right side of the vehicle, that’s where the fake prints go, not while you’re standing in the street afterward. I think the prints were unintentional, done while reaching in to mop up inside.

Yes, the planting prints is pretty extreme, but I was just trying to say–as far as the bloody print, it is possible.

I too wonder, even if it wasn’t planted, why the need for him to touch the cab there? He was already inside the cab and wiping off prints. No need to go back inside. And if he had touched the outside prior he wouldn’t need to lean on it to wipe them off.

I still say it’s medical personell, but it would be good to have prints for when he is caught to prove he was there.

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:22 pm

The problem is that no one set of prints match another, correct?
The bloody prints do not match any prints from the letters.
No set of prints from one letter matches another. If I am wrong
please inform me. Which prints belong to the Zodiac? If a suspect
matches some prints on file that would be great, but it sounds like
LE would have to pro-actively submit them. Solving this crime through
fingerprints is unlikely. Perhaps in combination with something else.
Don’t hold your breath relying on fingerprints. I wonder if anyone in
LE has run the prints on file against the national database recently?
I can’t imagine them not getting hits on any of them, my suspect was
arrested repeatedly from 1999 to 2001, with prints taken. In fact, his
sidekick was arrested in 1999 as well, someone who would have handled
evidence for him. When was the last time the FBI ran the prints on file
for the Zodiac killings?

bentley, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:23 am

I still say it’s medical personell, but it would be good to have prints for when he is caught to prove he was there.

Ew, that would be the sh*ts.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:43 am

The problem is that no one set of prints match another, correct? The bloody prints do not match any prints from the letters. No set of prints from one letter matches another. If I am wrong please inform me.

No, you’re right. But it’s still possible for the prints not to match. Most of them are partials, with palm prints among their number, and there are so many different surfaces on a person’s two hands that can leave prints.

I’m not saying that all the prints belong to Zodiac. I’m saying that at least one of them must be his, and comparing someone to the entire set of prints on file can serve to rule them out.

I can’t imagine them not getting hits on any of them, my suspect was arrested repeatedly from 1999 to 2001, with prints taken. In fact, his sidekick was arrested in 1999 as well, someone who would have handled evidence for him.

Let me get this straight – since your suspect’s prints don’t match the prints on file, the prints can’t be Zodiac’s? What kind of logic is this? All it probably means is that neither your suspect nor his sidekick are Zodiac. I don’t understand why people can’t accept the possibility that Zodiac was never arrested for any other crimes.

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:35 am

I am not aware that anyone has run my POIs prints against those
on file for these crimes. And once again, I could be wrong, but LE
would have to request a match directly to the FBI. Zodiac prints are
not entered into any system, waiting for a hit, like Morf said. And I am
open to the idea that someone else may have committed these crimes.
I would like to see them solved. Perhaps Kevin Bs suspect will match
the bloody fingerprints on the cab, if not, would you rule him out?
There are other things that can help prove who this killer was.

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:24 pm

I had asked an agent from the CA D.O.J. who is working with the Zodiac case about Zodiac’s prints, (the cab prints), and wether or not they had been entered into a national database, and was shocked and sickened by what he told me.

His reply- "I do not believe that any of the fingerprints recovered from the crime scenes are in the national data base"

My question is, WHY NOT?

I spoke with a NAPA Detective today, and he backed up the statement that DOJ had given me that Zodiac prints from the Stine cab and or possible prints from any letters were NOT in any national database. I am still scratching my head over that. I then asked him flat out if the prints taken from Stine’s cab matched ANY other possible Zodiac prints from any other crime scene, or the phonebooth ised by Z the day of Berryessa, and he wouldnt comment on that. I also tried to see if he would elaborate on any possible connection or hidden unreleased evidence linking the Berryessa crime to the Domingos & Edwards murders, and he did not want to elaborate on any of that. Darn, not that I thought he would, but you never know. He did state that NAPA & SFPD were going to be pooling info and comparing notes on several things, and evidence, so maybe they discover something important together. Too bad this was not done 40 years ago.

Nin, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:52 pm

..He did state that NAPA & SFPD were going to be pooling info and comparing notes on several things, and evidence, so maybe they discover something important together. Too bad this was not done 40 years ago.

This is one of the reasons the case hasn’t been solved in so many years. Good job, morf!

-Nin

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:12 pm

What I would really like to know is if Napa has EVER considered the LB attacker not being the Zodiac Killer?

I know, I know, the writing on the car door was a "match", but handwriting is not an exact science.

If there is nothing other than that linking the two, I hope they would at least consider the possibility.

, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:35 pm

I spoke with a NAPA Detective today, and he backed up the statement that DOJ had given me that Zodiac prints from the Stine cab and or possible prints from any letters were NOT in any national database. I am still scratching my head over that. I then asked him flat out if the prints taken from Stine’s cab matched ANY other possible Zodiac prints from any other crime scene, or the phonebooth ised by Z the day of Berryessa, and he wouldnt comment on that. I also tried to see if he would elaborate on any possible connection or hidden unreleased evidence linking the Berryessa crime to the Domingos & Edwards murders, and he did not want to elaborate on any of that. Darn, not that I thought he would, but you never know. He did state that NAPA & SFPD were going to be pooling info and comparing notes on several things, and evidence, so maybe they discover something important together. Too bad this was not done 40 years ago.

Thanks for the update morf. Did he give any reasons why they are pooling info and comparing notes now?

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:46 pm

I spoke with a NAPA Detective today, and he backed up the statement that DOJ had given me that Zodiac prints from the Stine cab and or possible prints from any letters were NOT in any national database. I am still scratching my head over that. I then asked him flat out if the prints taken from Stine’s cab matched ANY other possible Zodiac prints from any other crime scene, or the phonebooth ised by Z the day of Berryessa, and he wouldnt comment on that. I also tried to see if he would elaborate on any possible connection or hidden unreleased evidence linking the Berryessa crime to the Domingos & Edwards murders, and he did not want to elaborate on any of that. Darn, not that I thought he would, but you never know. He did state that NAPA & SFPD were going to be pooling info and comparing notes on several things, and evidence, so maybe they discover something important together. Too bad this was not done 40 years ago.

Thanks for the update morf. Did he give any reasons why they are pooling info and comparing notes now?

He did not get into it any further. From what I can gather, they have the funds, resources,and man power to start seriously looking at the Zodiac case, and they want to look and make sure they are fully up to date with all of the Zodiac info and materials. It’s a start,maybe late than never.

, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:57 pm

Thanks. That is just great news.

KEY.SMITH697, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:15 pm

:study: Sure hope that they get R.G.S to help outwith additional questions about the case, information and further details. :scratch: Didn’t they look into this in 2007? Anyway, Great job Morf13 :cheers:

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:20 pm

Perhaps Kevin Bs suspect will match the bloody fingerprints on the cab, if not, would you rule him out?

I don’t put as much faith in the cab prints as I do the prints from the letters, particularly the palmprints on the Exorcist Letter. Unfortunately, there’s no way of matching Kevin’s suspect with those, as the guy’s dead and handprints aren’t routinely taken from prisoners. If he did not match the palmprints, though, I’d drop him like a hot coal.

There are other things that can help prove who this killer was.

Like what, exactly? Murder weapons? Trophies? I think the chance of either still being around is slim, especially if Zodiac turned over a new leaf like he apparently did in 1974. A confession might just be possible, but you still have to find the guy first and verify his statement by comparing it to actual physical evidence.

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:30 pm

I would postulate the following: a DNA match
a verified handwriting analysis
a ballistics test on weapons
a fingerprint match
a verified facial recognition photo to composite

Even then, some will never believe they have caught him.
Nice to hear that the authorities are looking back into the crimes,
what with all the new advances in science. They are in no rush,
they will want to verify everything they can.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:19 am

I doubt the composites are 100% accurate matches for Zodiac’s appearance. They probably have his general features correct, though. The handwriting is okay, I suppose, but not as slam-dunk as prints or DNA. And where ballistics is concerned – like I mentioned, I will be very surprised if the murder weapons are still in Zodiac’s possession.

To this day, I can’t get a straight story on the DNA. Some people say there wasn’t any, some say there was. The prints will always be more solid to me, at least until the DNA issue can be settled.

bayarea60s, Subject: Morf and Co. Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:35 am

Great Job once again Morf. Depressing but news none the less. I heard Napa was getting some funds to look into Z case again. Hopefully they’ll be able to coordinate with all LE agencies and get all prints, DNA, any kind of evidence, get it all cross tested and then see where its at.

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:52 am

Great Job once again Morf. Depressing but news none the less. I heard Napa was getting some funds to look into Z case again. Hopefully they’ll be able to coordinate with all LE agencies and get all prints, DNA, any kind of evidence, get it all cross tested and then see where its at.

Yeah, thats why they are delving into the case at this time. Alot of police agencies got a grant to go towards old & cold cases. So basically, it looks like SFPD & NAPA are the two best bets at finding something that was missed previously. I think it is weird that Vallejo PD has not reopened the case since the crimes seemed centered in their city.

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:09 am

I doubt the composites are 100% accurate matches for Zodiac’s appearance. They probably have his general features correct, though. The handwriting is okay, I suppose, but not as slam-dunk as prints or DNA. And where ballistics is concerned – like I mentioned, I will be very surprised if the murder weapons are still in Zodiac’s possession.

To this day, I can’t get a straight story on the DNA. Some people say there wasn’t any, some say there was. The prints will always be more solid to me, at least until the DNA issue can be settled.

Good points NACH, I dont think any of Zodiac’s descriptions are dead on. Remember, the kids from the window were excited, nervous, etc, and were across the street at night, and I think I remember hearing there was a bit of fog that night. I think Zodiac’s description by them may generally look like him, but is not an exact match. I also am still confused, did Fouke or did he not have anything to do with the amended sketch? I think he may be the best witness if it was indeed Zodiac that he observed, since he was an adult, a police officer, and pretty close to the subject.

I dont put as much stock in Mageu’s description due to a light being shined in his face, I think his account is just too sketchy.

The girls at Berryessa that possibly saw Z without a mask, had alot of time to look at him and observe him, but we dont know for sure if that was even Z.

Quagmire, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:10 am

I think it is weird that Vallejo PD has not reopened the case since the crimes seemed centered in their city.

Perhaps most in VPD still assumed Allen was the Zodiac and when he died they were happy not to spend any more time or money pursuing the case?

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:12 am

I think it is weird that Vallejo PD has not reopened the case since the crimes seemed centered in their city.

Perhaps most in VPD still assumed Allen was the Zodiac and when he died they were happy not to spend any more time or money pursuing the case?

I guess they dont agree with the lack of a print, writing, or DNA match to Allen.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac print evidence Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:32 am

Fouke had nothing to do with the amended sketch, so the story goes. It was based on a further interview with the kids.

As far as I’m aware, the case was never closed in Vallejo. There’s still a tipline, if I recall correctly.