The DNA was collected from outside the stamp.

Is the DNA of Allen or Zodiac confirmed by multiple samples?

Let’s not forget that fingerprints, handwriting, and eyewitness testimony cleared Allen as well. To say that Allen is "back in the mix" is irresponsible, Tom – even by your standards.

What I would like to know is this- If you were only sampling DNA from the outside of the stamps, why were sections of the stamp cut out- like here on the April 20th 1970 envelope. https://youtu.be/GbR2w5VOVDg?t=6m48s
Here is the back of the October 13th 1969 Stine envelope stamp. Why wouldn’t you test it if you’ve peeled it from the envelope.

What I would like to know is this- If you were only sampling DNA from the outside of the stamps, why were sections of the stamp cut out- like here on the April 20th 1970 envelope. https://youtu.be/GbR2w5VOVDg?t=6m48s

Video is blocked in the USA so here are some screenshots:

Hi,

The reason they peeled the stamps off was to test for the presence of saliva and cells from the sender. They found that there was so little of each that they concluded that the stamps and flaps had not been licked. But we’ve known that for many years now after my interview with Alan Keel in 2007 and Lafferty’s book from 2012. There are old DNA threads on this site and zodiackillersite.com that discuss this over and over again. Except until this year we thought they had combined samples from different envelopes to get enough cells to do PCR in 2002 but now even that seems to be wrong and the front of the stamp is where the "Zodiac DNA" came from, which makes it next to useless. The problem with no saliva on the back of the stamps is why Holt resorted to the front of the stamp. Why such questionable DNA was used on the ABC show to effectively "eliminate" three suspects is another question.

The red brown hair, which is probably the best piece of evidence they have, is too short to use for mt-DNA analysis, now as in 2002. The technology has not advanced far enough yet. Z was very lucky thee was no root bulb on the hair.

Mike

Let’s not forget that fingerprints, handwriting, and eyewitness testimony cleared Allen as well. To say that Allen is "back in the mix" is irresponsible, Tom – even by your standards.

Ok, I’ll bite. How am I irresponsible? Specifics please.

By the way, if Allen had truly been "cleared" by what you listed, VPD would not have issued two Zodiac search warrants on him in the 1990s when they already had his handwriting, fingerprints and witness descriptions of Zodiac. Not to mention there would have been no need to test his DNA in 2002.

"Cleared." LOL

For someone who spends so much time at Zodiac sites, you don’t seem to have learned much.

Even the stupidest person alive with half a brain cell wouldn’t have swabbed the outside of the stamps, expecting to find DNA exclusively from the killer, to then exclude suspects in the confidence displayed. These letters, not only were handled by US Postal staff, but every Tom, Dick and Harry this side of Disneyland. The three July 31st 1969 letters were even retrieved from an investigators house, after he eat his burger and fries off them. I simply am not buying this nonsense, that the 2002 DNA testing was done exclusively on the exterior of the stamps. For this, you would have to believe Cydne Holt, who has a degree in molecular biology, has an IQ of less than zero, along with all the other contributory lunatics in the laboratory. However, if this was the case that stamps were swabbed on the outside, then with the Zodiac case in the hands of mentally challenged people such as these is beyond comprehension.

Let’s not forget that fingerprints, handwriting, and eyewitness testimony cleared Allen as well. To say that Allen is "back in the mix" is irresponsible, Tom – even by your standards.

Ok, I’ll bite. How am I irresponsible? Specifics please.

By the way, if Allen had truly been "cleared" by what you listed, VPD would not have issued two Zodiac search warrants on him in the 1990s when they already had his handwriting, fingerprints and witness descriptions of Zodiac. Not to mention there would have been no need to test his DNA in 2002.

"Cleared." LOL

For someone who spends so much time at Zodiac sites, you don’t seem to have learned much.

George Bawart was obsessed with Allen to the point that he ignored numerous investigations from various jurisdictions that all turned up nothing to connect Allen to the Zodiac. He wanted what a lot of people want – to be the guy to solve it. Understandable, except he backed the wrong horse. For you, who’s regarded as an expert in this case, to go on record saying Allen is "back in the mix" is to perpetuate a falsehood that we should have been rid of years ago.

Let’s not forget that fingerprints, handwriting, and eyewitness testimony cleared Allen as well. To say that Allen is "back in the mix" is irresponsible, Tom – even by your standards.

Ok, I’ll bite. How am I irresponsible? Specifics please.

By the way, if Allen had truly been "cleared" by what you listed, VPD would not have issued two Zodiac search warrants on him in the 1990s when they already had his handwriting, fingerprints and witness descriptions of Zodiac. Not to mention there would have been no need to test his DNA in 2002.

"Cleared." LOL

For someone who spends so much time at Zodiac sites, you don’t seem to have learned much.

George Bawart was obsessed with Allen to the point that he ignored numerous investigations from various jurisdictions that all turned up nothing to connect Allen to the Zodiac. He wanted what a lot of people want – to be the guy to solve it. Understandable, except he backed the wrong horse. For you, who’s regarded as an expert in this case, to go on record saying Allen is "back in the mix" is to perpetuate a falsehood that we should have been rid of years ago.

George Bawart didn’t make the search warrants happen, a judge did. Twice. Not to mention Bawart had nothing to do with the attempt at getting Allen’s DNA compared, a decade after the search warrants no less.

You are making yourself look very foolish.

Even the stupidest person alive with half a brain cell wouldn’t have swabbed the outside of the stamps, expecting to find DNA exclusively from the killer, to then exclude suspects in the confidence displayed. These letters, not only were handled by US Postal staff, but every Tom, Dick and Harry this side of Disneyland. The three July 31st 1969 letters were even retrieved from an investigators house, after he eat his burger and fries off them. I simply am not buying this nonsense, that the 2002 DNA testing was done exclusively on the exterior of the stamps. For this, you would have to believe Cydne Holt, who has a degree in molecular biology, has an IQ of less than zero, along with all the other contributory lunatics in the laboratory. However, if this was the case that stamps were swabbed on the outside, then with the Zodiac case in the hands of mentally challenged people such as these is beyond comprehension.

The entire Zodiac correspondence is evidence. That includes the envelope, the stamp, the stationary, the handwriting. All of it is evidence.

Holt’s job was to examine the evidence — all of it — and attempt to find DNA. That’s what she did.

Genetic material was found behind the stamp but there was not enough to form a DNA profile.

The partial DNA profile she recovered was from the outside of the stamp. Had it matched Allen, or Qvale, or Collins, it likely would have resulted in criminal charges.

The ABC narrator is the one who states that Holt’s test "exonerates" ALA. Holt does not state this. She only says that ALA "could not have contributed the DNA that I detected in the stamp." She does not say it is zodiac’s DNA. Nor is she responsible for ABCs editorial narrative.

Back in the mix? ALA has never really been out of the mix, in terms of some possible involvement. Good luck to anyone who has 100% faith in the forensics, eye-witness accounts and public pronouncements by police in this case.

….George Bawart didn’t make the search warrants happen, a judge did. Twice. Not to mention Bawart had nothing to do with the attempt at getting Allen’s DNA compared, a decade after the search warrants no less.

I know Armstrong initiated the Santa Rosa search warrant. Was there a particular officer who initiated the warrant on his parent’s house? From what I read, it just states the V.P.D. ??

The ABC narrator is the one who states that Holt’s test "exonerates" ALA. Holt does not state this. She only says that ALA "could not have contributed the DNA that I detected in the stamp." She does not say it is zodiac’s DNA. Nor is she responsible for ABCs editorial narrative.

Back in the mix? ALA has never really been out of the mix, in terms of some possible involvement. Good luck to anyone who has 100% faith in the forensics, eye-witness accounts and public pronouncements by police in this case.

Good points.

….George Bawart didn’t make the search warrants happen, a judge did. Twice. Not to mention Bawart had nothing to do with the attempt at getting Allen’s DNA compared, a decade after the search warrants no less.

I know Armstrong initiated the Santa Rosa search warrant.

He took it to a judge and the judge agreed it was warranted. Same thing in Vallejo. All three times, a judge agreed that the search was warranted. If not, no searches.