if we can question the desk, why not the car door? Why is it a given for some the car door was Zodiac based off handwriting alone–handwriting that could not be analyzed, like the desk?

Because the desktop poem wasn’t found at the very location of a Zodiac crime scene?

Nor was it found simultaneously upon discovery of the crime as with the LB attack.

if we can question the desk, why not the car door? Why is it a given for some the car door was Zodiac based off handwriting alone–handwriting that could not be analyzed, like the desk?

Because the desktop poem wasn’t found at the very location of a Zodiac crime scene?

Nor was it found simultaneously upon discovery of the crime as with the LB attack.

Yes, and people seem to forget the call the Zodiac made thereafter, in Napa, which was described as similar to the call the Zodiac made to VPD.

Really, the only reason to think the Zodiac didn’t commit the crime at LB is because he never sent a letter vis-a-vis LB.

But then, if someone else committed the crimes at LB, why didn’t the Zodiac either address the fraud, or take credit?

The fact that the Zodiac didn’t take credit for someone killing in his name lends more weight to him being the killer.

And if someone was impersonating him, why didn’t THEY send a letter to the editor taking credit as the Zodiac? They were already impersonating everything else about the killer, right? What more is a little letter?

Personally (of course) I think analyzing a car door is no different than the desktop.

Morrill could not use the techniques he used as a professional, just as he couldn’t do it with the desk-top. I don’t think it’s fair to use the justification of his lack of ability to properly analyze the desktop and then not use that for the car door.

WE can say "because it happened at the same time", but that doesn’t prove it was him. I would like to think that is not what Sherwood did either–what would be the point of asking him at all if it was a given?

So what techniques did Morrill use properly analyze the door?

Personally (of course) I think analyzing a car door is no different than the desktop.

Well, they’re different surfaces, and I think a pen was used on the DTP versus a felt-tip marker at LB.

Definitely neither can be analyzed as one would a pen-on-paper kind of missive.

Morrill could not use the techniques he used as a professional, just as he couldn’t do it with the desk-top. I don’t think it’s fair to use the justification of his lack of ability to properly analyze the desktop and then not use that for the car door.

Not sure I follow. The DTP’s writing was likely altered by the act of carving into the desk, whereas at LB the killer could write more fluidly in own nature style simply because the door’s surface is smooth. True, Morrill could not perform the kind of examination he would with a letter, and he couldn’t compare paper to metal, but he could analyze letter shape, fluidity, placement, form, et cetera, techniques that would apply better to the car door than the DTP, which involved carving into the wood underneath, which likely distorted the handwriting.

WE can say "because it happened at the same time", but that doesn’t prove it was him. I would like to think that is not what Sherwood did either–what would be the point of asking him at all if it was a given?

No, it doesn’t prove it was him, but it’s a strawman to say the only proof the Zodiac committed LB is the writing on Hartnell’s door. There’s the phone call, the similarity in general body types, the fact that the Zodiac implicitly took credit for it afterwards, et cetera. Placed in that context, I think it’s far more likely the Zodiac committed the crime versus some copycat, which, if true, makes you wonder why the alleged copycat didn’t just shoot the kids instead of knifing them. Why would a copycat not just shoot them instead, per the Zodiac’s previously established mo?

Yes, and people seem to forget the call the Zodiac made thereafter, in Napa, which was described as similar to the call the Zodiac made to VPD.

Not forgetting. The Vallejo call, in detail, was reported in the paper. And the Napa caller even corrected himself so it sounded like what was reported in the paper: "..a murder…NO…a double murder"

The phone call, (no Zodiac mentioned), different sounding voices (young vs.mature Gaik sounding), size/hair, totally NOT his MO, and the fact that Zodiac’s handwriting and the circle cross were published in the paper–his numbers/date style included.

Zodiac never took credit for LB – aside of that phone call.

So, my question remains, what technique did Morrill use on the car door?

Personally (of course) I think analyzing a car door is no different than the desktop.

In itself it isn’t. It’s not a like-for-like comparison: Extraordinary exemplar (a car door, like the desktop) compared to pen-on-paper.

I’d like to see precisely what he thought about that exemplar too (just like I’d like to see exactly what he thought about comparing printing on paper to printing – or scratching – on a varnished wooden surface).

But context is key with LB. The writer identifies himself as Z – through the dates and the symbol. That alone makes it radically different from the desktop.

I know you have your doubts about the whole thing – but that difference is nevertheless marked, if we’re comparing the desktop and the car door.

Not forgetting. The Vallejo call, in detail, was reported in the paper. And the Napa caller even corrected himself so it sounded like what was reported in the paper: "..a murder…NO…a double murder"

Which the canonical Z could have done too – as a calling card of sorts. A little something he might have cherished as such, one might say.

Since we’re on the subject, another pet of mine: If it was a copycat, someone who actively wanted to emulate Z – why did he bother with the car door business at all? Z wasn’t known for that. He was known for writing letters to the papers.

And he wasn’t THAT well known to begin with. At the time of LB he was known for two attacks – mainly the last one, namely BRS. He wasn’t the most notorious serial killer in the history of the genre bar Jack The Ripper – which he is to us, today. Was he even that likely a candidate for someone to copy?

I see all of your points and thank you for responding. The symbol used on the door certainly links it to a Zodiac case, there is no doubt about that–but the handwriting would have to be looked at aside of that. Of course visually there are similarities, but some, not so much, imo. Just curious as to Morrill’s take on it and what the key points would be–the pros and cons of the writing alone.

Not forgetting. The Vallejo call, in detail, was reported in the paper. And the Napa caller even corrected himself so it sounded like what was reported in the paper: "..a murder…NO…a double murder"

Which the canonical Z could have done too – as a calling card of sorts. A little something he might have cherished as such, one might say.

Since we’re on the subject, another pet of mine: If it was a copycat, someone who actively wanted to emulate Z – why did he bother with the car door business at all? Z wasn’t known for that. He was known for writing letters to the papers.

And he wasn’t THAT well known to begin with. At the time of LB he was known for two attacks – mainly the last one, namely BRS. He wasn’t the most notorious serial killer in the history of the genre bar Jack The Ripper – which he is to us, today. Was he even that likely a candidate for someone to copy?

The fact he wasn’t all that well known leaves someone to be a bit more creative, if it were a copy cat, he wanted it to be known as a crime of the "cipher slayer"…the circle-cross guy. This person had a personal need in this crime–at least to me. Stabbing is so different! I think he wrote on the door because he probably wasn’t comfortable writing letters–not as easy to fake or analyze.

If Zodiac cherished calling in his crime–why not SF? Of course we could say "he might have had the cops not seen him"…I guess we will never know.

Zodiac–or the man who committed those crimes before "Zodiac" came to be, was all over the newspapers–especially locally, which Napa was. If one wanted to commit such a horrid attack, who better to emulate than that of another mad-man? I just think it SO different I cannot get the possibility out of my head. There is just something off about Lake Berryessa and considering all of those things were mentioned in the paper–it gave someone the ability to do it.

The only stake claimed was at the time of the attack. Zodiac never mentioned it again like he so joyfully did with David, Betty Lou, Mike and Darlene and Paul Stine. And to that I ask, why? With Paul, he had shirt for proof, yet he still gave details about his experiences that night. LB – zilch.

**

Sorry to go off-track here. My original question was addressed. Thanks!

I know my handwriting looks similar but a bit different when I write on a chalkboard as opposed to a piece of paper flat on a table. Zodiac was probably squatting when he wrote on the car door, too, making writing a bit more awkward. I have no idea how Morrill or any other document examiner would compensate for this though.

Yes, and people seem to forget the call the Zodiac made thereafter, in Napa, which was described as similar to the call the Zodiac made to VPD.

Not forgetting. The Vallejo call, in detail, was reported in the paper. And the Napa caller even corrected himself so it sounded like what was reported in the paper: "..a murder…NO…a double murder"

The phone call, (no Zodiac mentioned), different sounding voices (young vs.mature Gaik sounding), size/hair, totally NOT his MO, and the fact that Zodiac’s handwriting and the circle cross were published in the paper–his numbers/date style included.

Zodiac never took credit for LB – aside of that phone call.

So, my question remains, what technique did Morrill use on the car door?

I know it’s only one single letter, but that candy cane F on that car door is identical to the one on the RCC desk…I know, I know, we are not going to agree, and it’s only one single letter, but it stands out so well. I could ask a dozen people if it’s a match, 12 people that know nothing about the case, and I bet I would get 12 people saying it looks identical… okay, carry on

That F alone makes me confident I know that Zodiac wrote that desktop poem, it’s that perfect a match from top to bottom, 1st stroke to last

It does morf, but that would be something (if I could go back in time and ask Morrill) I’d question him about.

To me, there are more things that aren’t similar. A copycat would get some right and some wrong. They would have studied the writing and practiced.

I think it would be interesting to hear Morrill’s take on a lot of this stuff and why he felt the way he did and what led him to his ultimate conclusions. I would have liked to hear his argument against the other experts in regard to the ’78 letter.

It does morf, but that would be something (if I could go back in time and ask Morrill) I’d question him about.

To me, there are more things that aren’t similar. A copycat would get some right and some wrong. They would have studied the writing and practiced.

I think it would be interesting to hear Morrill’s take on a lot of this stuff and why he felt the way he did and what led him to his ultimate conclusions. I would have liked to hear his argument against the other experts in regard to the ’78 letter.

Forget that, I’d like to have Morrill’s files

Would be interesting to know what happened to his files! And who that guy(?) was who came to his door.

Would be interesting to know what happened to his files! And who that guy(?) was who came to his door.

Wallace Penny(I will PM you his real name)