Zodiac belongs in a distinct subset of serial killers that SOS is certainly a part of. The Monster of Florence is quite similar but he only sent one taunting letter that we know of.

By all accounts Berkowitz was very sick and his schizophrenia drove his crimes in ways different from the typical psychopathic killer.

I’m pretty much certain Z was not schizophrenic. There is really nothing in his writings or in the crimes that indicates a person in the midst of a psychosis. I have a hard time believing SoS was schizophrenic either. Seems to me it was his excuse to get out of 6 life sentences. I’d be more apt to believe Z was bipolar, because of the delusions of grandeur, but even that is highly unlikely. The crimes would be way more disorganized if that were the case.

Bipolar disorder and schizophrenia are psychotic breaks from reality. If youve ever been around someone who is actively psychotic, you’d see how unrealistic it is for them to cleverly avoid capture. They are so unaware of what theyre doing, they would leave numerous clues to track them.

SoS was found criminally sane for good reason: he was. So is Z.

I think some of us have agreed this fits the bill:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Individuals with narcissistic personality disorder generally believe that the world revolves around them. This condition is characterized by a lack of ability to empathize with others and a desire to keep the focus on themselves at all times.

DefinitionSymptomsCausesTreatments
Definition

Narcissistic Personality Disorder involves arrogant behavior, a lack of empathy for other people, and a need for admiration-all of which must be consistently evident at work and in relationships. People who are narcissistic are frequently described as cocky, self-centered, manipulative, and demanding. Narcissists may concentrate on unlikely personal outcomes (e.g., fame) and may be convinced that they deserve special treatment. Related Personality Disorders: Antisocial, Borderline, Histrionic. Narcissism is a less extreme version of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Narcissism involves cockiness, manipulativeness, selfishness, power motives, and vanity-a love of mirrors. Related personality traits include: Psychopathy, Machiavellianism.

Narcissists tend to have high self-esteem. However, narcissism is not the same thing as self-esteem; people who have high self-esteem are often humble, whereas narcissists rarely are. It was once thought that narcissists have high self-esteem on the surface, but deep down they are insecure. However, the latest evidence indicates that narcissists are actually secure or grandiose at both levels. Onlookers may infer that insecurity is there because narcissists tend to be defensive when their self-esteem is threatened (e.g., being ridiculed); narcissists can be aggressive. The sometimes dangerous lifestyle may more generally reflect sensation-seeking or impulsivity (e.g., risky sex, bold financial decisions).

Sources

American Psychiatric Association. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Revised.
Center for Substance Abuse Treatment. Assessment and Treatment of Patients with Coexisting Mental Illness and Alcohol and Other Drug Abuse. Treatment Improvement Protocol (TIP) Series, No.9.
National Institutes of Health – National Library of Medicine
Brad Bushman, W. Keith Campbell, Del Paulhus, Richard W. Robins
Last reviewed 02/17/2015

https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditi … y-disorder

I think some of us have agreed this fits the bill:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Individuals with narcissistic personality disorder generally believe that the world revolves around them. This condition is characterized by a lack of ability to empathize with others and a desire to keep the focus on themselves at all times.

DefinitionSymptomsCausesTreatments
Definition

Narcissistic Personality Disorder involves arrogant behavior, a lack of empathy for other people, and a need for admiration-all of which must be consistently evident at work and in relationships. People who are narcissistic are frequently described as cocky, self-centered, manipulative, and demanding. Narcissists may concentrate on unlikely personal outcomes (e.g., fame) and may be convinced that they deserve special treatment. Related Personality Disorders: Antisocial, Borderline, Histrionic. Narcissism is a less extreme version of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Narcissism involves cockiness, manipulativeness, selfishness, power motives, and vanity-a love of mirrors. Related personality traits include: Psychopathy, Machiavellianism.

Narcissists tend to have high self-esteem. However, narcissism is not the same thing as self-esteem; people who have high self-esteem are often humble, whereas narcissists rarely are. It was once thought that narcissists have high self-esteem on the surface, but deep down they are insecure. However, the latest evidence indicates that narcissists are actually secure or grandiose at both levels. Onlookers may infer that insecurity is there because narcissists tend to be defensive when their self-esteem is threatened (e.g., being ridiculed); narcissists can be aggressive. The sometimes dangerous lifestyle may more generally reflect sensation-seeking or impulsivity (e.g., risky sex, bold financial decisions).

Sources

American Psychiatric Association. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Revised.
Center for Substance Abuse Treatment. Assessment and Treatment of Patients with Coexisting Mental Illness and Alcohol and Other Drug Abuse. Treatment Improvement Protocol (TIP) Series, No.9.
National Institutes of Health – National Library of Medicine
Brad Bushman, W. Keith Campbell, Del Paulhus, Richard W. Robins
Last reviewed 02/17/2015

https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditi … y-disorder

Seems to fit Z to a tee. He was/is by all accounts a psychopath, and he may have traits in common with other personality disorders — afterall these are not like physical conditions, where you can pinpoint exactly where and what the problem is. Really they are diagnoses based on clusters of symptoms, and few fit perfectly into one category. Still, narcissistic personality disorder, like you say Tahoe, to anyone you looks at the evidence rationally and objectively, seems to fit the bill.

Bipolar disorder and schizophrenia are psychotic breaks from reality. If youve ever been around someone who is actively psychotic, you’d see how unrealistic it is for them to cleverly avoid capture. They are so unaware of what theyre doing, they would leave numerous clues to track them.

SoS was found criminally sane for good reason: he was. So is Z.

I’m not aware of Berkowitz doing anything clever, and the Zodiac was hardly Ted Bundy.

Berkowitz was found criminally sane, yes. Also diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic.

Bipolar disorder and schizophrenia are psychotic breaks from reality. If youve ever been around someone who is actively psychotic, you’d see how unrealistic it is for them to cleverly avoid capture. They are so unaware of what theyre doing, they would leave numerous clues to track them.

SoS was found criminally sane for good reason: he was. So is Z.

I’m not aware of Berkowitz doing anything clever, and the Zodiac was hardly Ted Bundy.

Berkowitz was found criminally sane, yes. Also diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic.

Do you not see the contradiction in that? So he happened to fool a psychiatrist. That is what psychopaths are good at. Fooling people, even the experts. It’s what makes them so dangerous. If he was indeed psychotic during the killings, he would have left a trail leading back to him before the body count started adding up. Schizophrenics have no sense of reality. They don’t know what they’re doing. Psychopaths know exactly what they’re doing. They have no conscious.

I wasn’t suggesting that either SoS or Z are criminal masterminds. But they certainly knew what they were doing and were smart enough to evade capture. Yes, SoS was eventually apprehended, but not before a lot of damage was done. And say what you want about Z, call him a sloppy killer all you want, but the fact is, he got away with it.

I am a newbie to the board but really want to weigh in on this. I have had limited experience with people with schizoid disorders as a rent-a-nurse at an in-patient psychiatric facility about 12 years ago. I probably only worked 30 shifts but i remember noting back then that the truly schizophrenic patients could hardly write their names/hold a conversation without rambling. This is compared to the majority of patients who, altho sick and mentally compromised, had histories of drug abuse and addiction. To me, they were more manipulative and unfocused. I actually don’t think either group could pull off what z did–granted they were in-patient but so scattered in their thoughts, so immediate–not planners. I think z had aspergers. I know it was eliminated from the DMS-5 a few years ago and now patients are rated on an autism scale. But I think –from his taunts and letters and love of codes–that he felt superior to the police and society in general (which maybe in some small way he was, with the codes, etc) but that he could not communicate and empathize with other people, thus de-evolving into a killer. I mean, I think he must have been a weird kid, especially in the 50s and 60s. A true autistic/aspergers really can’t figure people out so they are stuck inside their head.
One other point that always struck me–when Bryan Hartnell said he was trying to engage z in conversation and BH asked him if his gun was really loaded. And BH said/wrote in his "report" on the incident that zodiac got " kind of excited" when he replied and showed him the bullets. That whole description of that incident reminds me of an actor breaking character–like that was the "real" person behind the zodiac facade. Which makes me think of a 28ish nerdish semi-autistic man excited to show someone the bullets in his gun.

One other point that always struck me–when Bryan Hartnell said he was trying to engage z in conversation and BH asked him if his gun was really loaded. And BH said/wrote in his "report" on the incident that zodiac got " kind of excited" when he replied and showed him the bullets. That whole description of that incident reminds me of an actor breaking character–like that was the "real" person behind the zodiac facade. Which makes me think of a 28ish nerdish semi-autistic man excited to show someone the bullets in his gun.

I’ve thought about this too – in much the same way.

Z’s behavior at LB is very interesting at any rate. The story he tells them, the way he responds to Bryan’s questions and remarks, the fact that he doesn’t allude to his costume (or the fact that he’s Z) – all this is remarkable. And in terms of a possible disorder, it certainly reminds me of some kind of autism (generally and non-scientifically speaking) more than, say, schizophrenia.

I agree. It’s interesting. I never thought of autism, but I always felt there was some underling mental illness (other than the psychopathy). This is usually the case for serial killers. I often thought maybe he had ocd or some kind of impulse control illness like that.

I think that since z, nonchalantly is standing around in a costume, as if it’s normal, and doesn’t address it, tells me he’s not all there. I wish one of Bryan’s questions to z would have been "what’s up with the costume?"

I think that since z, nonchalantly is standing around in a costume, as if it’s normal, and doesn’t address it, tells me he’s not all there. I wish one of Bryan’s questions to z would have been "what’s up with the costume?"

The costume to me suggests ritual. I don’t think anyone would argue that Z was totally with it but it doesn’t suggest full on psychosis — especially if you take the entire conversation he had with his victims — just some screws loose. It also allows Z to distance himself from his day to day personality. The costume also serves a very pragmatic purpose by disguising his face. Hacker group Anonymous don’t allude to their costumes either. It’s just agiven that they need to keep their identies hidden.

I am a newbie to the board but really want to weigh in on this. I have had limited experience with people with schizoid disorders as a rent-a-nurse at an in-patient psychiatric facility about 12 years ago. I probably only worked 30 shifts but i remember noting back then that the truly schizophrenic patients could hardly write their names/hold a conversation without rambling. This is compared to the majority of patients who, altho sick and mentally compromised, had histories of drug abuse and addiction. To me, they were more manipulative and unfocused. I actually don’t think either group could pull off what z did–granted they were in-patient but so scattered in their thoughts, so immediate–not planners. I think z had aspergers. I know it was eliminated from the DMS-5 a few years ago and now patients are rated on an autism scale. But I think –from his taunts and letters and love of codes–that he felt superior to the police and society in general (which maybe in some small way he was, with the codes, etc) but that he could not communicate and empathize with other people, thus de-evolving into a killer. I mean, I think he must have been a weird kid, especially in the 50s and 60s. A true autistic/aspergers really can’t figure people out so they are stuck inside their head.
One other point that always struck me–when Bryan Hartnell said he was trying to engage z in conversation and BH asked him if his gun was really loaded. And BH said/wrote in his "report" on the incident that zodiac got " kind of excited" when he replied and showed him the bullets. That whole description of that incident reminds me of an actor breaking character–like that was the "real" person behind the zodiac facade. Which makes me think of a 28ish nerdish semi-autistic man excited to show someone the bullets in his gun.

Whoo boy. Sorry to bring in the PC police, but as a person with Asperger’s syndrome, I feel the need to call out the stereotype of the cold, unfeeling robot nerd. If anything, Aspies are overwhelmed by empathy, they just don’t show it very well (i.e. they have very poor "affective empathy"), and this hypersensitivity to emotion makes them withdraw.

Speaking for myself, while I live in a state of constant frustration with other people, I cannot imagine inflicting violence on someone for pleasure. When I see an animal or person suffer, I suffer, even though the casual observer might never know it. I’d probably pass out if I had to stab someone… and then turn myself in immediately after.

Many studies have demonstrated that adults with autism spectrum disorders have a lower rate of criminal conviction than the general population. When violent crime does occur, it is almost always precipitated by a comorbid psychiatric disorder, such as severe depression or psychosis.

Z autistic? Maybe. As a fundamental explanation for his homicidal tendencies? No way!

Do you not see the contradiction in that? So he happened to fool a psychiatrist. That is what psychopaths are good at. Fooling people, even the experts. It’s what makes them so dangerous. If he was indeed psychotic during the killings, he would have left a trail leading back to him before the body count started adding up. Schizophrenics have no sense of reality. They don’t know what they’re doing. Psychopaths know exactly what they’re doing. They have no conscious.

I wasn’t suggesting that either SoS or Z are criminal masterminds. But they certainly knew what they were doing and were smart enough to evade capture. Yes, SoS was eventually apprehended, but not before a lot of damage was done. And say what you want about Z, call him a sloppy killer all you want, but the fact is, he got away with it.

There’s no contradiction! Criminally insane is distinct from mentally ill. In order to be found criminally insane you have to have no comprehension that what you’re doing is wrong or illegal. A high bar to clear, and a difficult one for juries to accept when the crimes are very heinous.

Schizophrenics do have some sense of reality, which is why the intrusions upon it are so disturbing for them.

AFAIK, SOS was just a guy who went around and shot some cars and because his M.O. was relatively clean he got away with it for a while.

Z autistic? Maybe. As a fundamental explanation for his homicidal tendencies? No way!

That’s a fair point – and important to keep in mind. I don’t think we can easily explain the whole package just by coming up with a known diagnosis – no matter what the latter is.

However, there are many kinds of autism – and many kinds of Asperger’s too. I remember reading about Breivik – the guy who killed all those kids in Norway some years ago: That he had a form of Asperger’s was proposed by several of the psychiatrists who gave expert testimony during the trial. Now, this clearly doesn’t mean that having Asperger’s is a necessary part of that equation, and it should never be used to stigmatize anyone, but it’s a fact that a condition like that may be a part of the equation for some criminals (not least when the condition in question has not been treated or even recognized prior to the individual committing the crime).

Hi Barry S.–I was not painting all people with autism with the same brush as I picture/imagine z. I did not intend to offend anyone and I’m sorry if I did. I agree with Norse’s post –there are many forms and degrees of autism and everyone is an individual. My personal opinion is that anyone who murders a stranger–like z did–has some form of mental illness. And I don’t think a psychotic could carry it out. Kids and grown-ups can be cruel, and I imagine z was considered an awkward/weird kid. I think he had above average intelligence in some areas–codes, language–but couldn’t make it work socially.

I had never really thought about how he wore his hooded costume at Lake Berryessa but never alluded to it. That is strange. I also think his choice of pants –pleated, "old-fashioned" –is strange. It was the late 60’s–most young people wore bell-bottoms or jenes. He just seems so off in a way–not crazed, but distant. Lake Herman Rd was a "hit" –with all the comings and goings he had to have done that w/i 10 minutes tops. From what Mike M. reported, Blue Ridge Springs was a "hit" as well–didn’t say a word to them. Lake Berryessa is different of course–but he’s still remote/distant (the costume.) I ‘m not sure of what I think about Presidio Heights. Again, this is just my opinion.

I think (as Trav so nicely points out above) that Berkowitz obviously mimicked Zodiac. "I love to hunt"…"fair game", etc., etc. Just like Zodiac most certainly got tidbits from the Jack-the-Ripper letters.

Seems very likely, yes.

In general, it’s problematic to "diagnose" anyone based on their writing alone.

As far as the latter goes, however, I’d say that B is much more detailed, personal and explicit than Z. B provides reasons for his actions (crazy reasons, but reasons nonetheless, which can be – so to speak – readily understood). Why does Z kill, according to his statements?

He’s collecting slaves (no details offered).
He thinks it’s fun (no details offered).

Agreed. This is what keeps nagging me! No details offered by Z other than some off the wall shit that I don’t understand (much like his other crap that no one can figure out still). I agree with Tahoe that both killers were trying to be greater in creating their personas and were likely anything but – probably either didn’t fit in and were losers. Many people want to buy into the narrative the killer presented, but that narrative is part of the killer’s fantasy – what they see themselves as and wish to be (NOT who they really are which is nothing extraordinary).

Look at Elliot Rogers who wrote his manifesto before shooting the kids in SB last year. He thought he was so great and didn’t understand why people didn’t like him (or so he claimed)…Making himself out to be greater and more worthy of attention. Meanwhile everyone else who knows him says he was undeserving of positive attention from anyone as he was abusive and creepy – a real loser!!!! But nooo…. In his manifesto his narrative says he was deserving. That he was great looking and women should swoon over him. Blah blah blah. Complete psychopathic narcissists who want to play God and suit their narrative to fit their deeds, whether the narrative is credible or not. They always try to give a reason – it’s how they get attention by Providing us the "why" to satiate us, but Zodiac didn’t tell us a concrete why. Just that he thought it was fun and he was collecting slaves for his "paradice". Why no concrete reasons? There was for CJB bc he says she brushed him off (rejection as a motivation much like Elliot Rogers), but why the others after? Even with CJB he made a reference to her going to the slaughter like a lamb… Which kind of still seems to play into his feelings that she is a sacrifice of sorts. A sacrifice to what? To also become his slave in paradice? A sacrifice to Himself, because in his mind he is worthy even if everyone else wouldn’t realize it.