, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:53 pm

A very interesting NEW expansion on the NUMBER THEORY linking Zodiac murder dates.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90

Kathleen Johns (3/22/70) = 3 + 22 + 70 = 95

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85

VR Professor Snelling (9/11/75) = 9 + 11 + 75 = 95

ONS Mr. and Mrs. "H" (10/1/79) = 10 + 1 + 79 = 90

Flight 444 (11/15/79) = 11 + 15 + 79 = 105

ONS Domingo/Sanchez (7/27/81) 7 + 27 + 81 = 115

Joan Webster (11/28/81) = 11 + 28 + 81 = 120

ONS Janelle Cruz (5/4/86) = 95

This starts with the idea that the Zodiac symbol might have 0, 20, 40, 60, 80, 100 at the NORTH point, 5, 25, 45, 65, 85, 105 at the EAST point, 10, 30, 50, 70, 90, 110 at the SOUTH point and 15, 35, 55, 75, 95, 115 at the WEST point.

From KITE:

Okay, what I’ve got as a follow-up here is ABSOLUTELY COLOSSAL. This keeps getting crazier.

Okay, keep in mind the ZODIAC SYMBOL with the 0,5,10, and 15 at the points.

Okay, now I’ll go over the first FIVE Zodiac crime dates(excluding 3/22/70=(95) as only attempted: 12/20/68=(100), 7/4/69=(80), 9/27/69=(105) 10/11/69=(90) 6/19/70=(95). Oh yeah, if I made a mistake on this I’ll apologize now for the build-up.

But, those FIVE numbers are 80,90,95,100,105. Now divide them by FIVE and you have: 16,18,19,20,21.

Do those numbers look familiar? On the 6/26/70 letter, if I’m not mistaken, right after the 6/19/70 crime date, Zodiac leaves X’s on what would be the 6,8,9,10,11 places if the Zodiac symbol ran from ZERO to TWELVE. They match up with the crime date numbers divided by FIVE, only subtract TEN. (6,8,9,10,11) to (16,18,19,20,21).

With this parallel, the missing 7 represents the missing 85 from the crime dates. Now, can this all just be coincidence or was this the clue Zodiac left that confirms the whole crime dates number game? In other words, if you take the 5 numbers left on X’s by Zodiac from a ZERO to TWELVE based Zodiac symbol you have 6,8,9,10,11. Now add TEN to give you 16,18,19,20,21. Now multiply them by FIVE. You have: 80,90,95,100,105 Those number match the crime scene dates: 7/4/69=(80), 10/11/69=(90), 6/19/70=(95), 12/20/68=(100) 9/27/69=(105). See how a TEN and FIVE are used to do this? This is just totally unbelievable. If I didn’t make a mistake, this is just absolutely colossal!!! You know, I’m not positive that those x’s on the Zodiac symbol are from the 6/26/70 letter, I think they are. But, if so, the idea that that would directly follow the 6/19/70 is unbelievable. Can that be a coincidence? And, then, does that make it more likely that Zodiac was responsible on 6/19/70 or just quick to claim a date that completed his strange number game? This whole thing is just so unbelievably colossal, oh my it is.

AK = It was the November 9, 1969 "Bus Bomb" Letter to the SF Chronicle.

KITE [AK]: [JENSEN-FARADAY]12/20/68=(100), [FERRIN-MAGEAU]7/4/69=(80), [SHEPARD-HARTNELL]9/27/69=(105) [STINE]10/11/69=(90) [RADETICH]6/19/70=(95). Oh yeah, if I made a mistake on this I’ll apologize now for the build-up. But, those FIVE numbers are 80,90,95,100,105. Now divide them by FIVE and you have: 16,18,19,20,21. Do those numbers look familiar? On the [11/9/69] letter, if I’m not mistaken, right after the [10/11/69] crime date, Zodiac leaves X’s on what would be the 6,8,9,10,11 places if the Zodiac symbol ran from ZERO to TWELVE. They match up with the crime date numbers divided by FIVE, only subtract TEN. (6,8,9,10,11) to (16,18,19,20,21).

With this parallel,the missing 7 represents the missing 85 from the crime dates.[DONNA LASS][9/6/70=85. 85 divided by 5 = 17. 17 – 10 = 7. Was DONNA LASS the missing 7 spot?]

AK = Reading the Zodiac symbol as a clock face, I do see the marked spots as: 6, 8, 9, 10, 11.

In other words, Zodiac seems to mark the spots 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. And when you:

1. Add up the murder dates numbers as shown at the top

2. Divide by 5

3. Drop the first digit, i.e., subtract 10.

4. You get 6, 8, 9, 10, 11.

Meaningful? Or mumbo jumbo coincidence?

Viewing the Zodiac symbol as a clockface, Zodiac himself has marked 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. Missing is a 7.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100 Divided by 5 = 20 -10 = 10

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90 Divided by 5 = 18 – 10 =8

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95 Divided by 5 = 19 – 10 = 9

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85 Divided by 5 = 17 – 10 = 7

Unbelievable! Again, reminds me of my POI and how lucky I am to have escaped if he is the Z. He returned to Northern California to work around 1978. I have a copy of a library card issued to him by UC Berkeley with an expiration date of June 30, 1978. It has stamped "ADMIT TO MAIN LIBRARY STACKS" and the number "17" stamped. That is the date of his birth..and he is a Sagittarian.

He purchased a brand new Datsun 280 ZX which he called the "Z" in 1979 or 1980, which is when he invited me to visit him. This was after he showed up unexpectedly after not having seen me for some years in LAKE TAHOE!!!

He has said off and on over the years I’ve known him that he wanted to or thought of being a doctor but his dad wasn’t going to pay for any more education. Then, he wanted to be an actor but his mother (who had a Master’s in Drama from Northwestern) wouldn’t let him! He used to suffer from severe headaches and seems very attracted to nurses (my sister is an R. N.) and told me once that he’d met a nurse somewhere one night when he was out and they "danced the night away." He had a headache and she took him to her office where she unlocked the medicine cabinet and gave him an injection or some other medication for the headache. He made it sound like she’d done this illegally as there was no doctor involved. But he has told me so many wild stories over the years and I don’t know how many times he’s said sarcastically that I’m so naive I’d believe anything he’d tell me.

He loves to gamble and claims he’s won lots of money. Used to play "liars dice" at a well-known fish restaurant in Berkeley, Calif.

His recent letters to me are being sent UNSEALED with tape. The stationery is by Hallmark and I called them to ask if they’ve had a problem with their envelopes and the glue and they said no. I think this may be old but he said he got it recently. It looks to me like the sealant has been wiped off. I experimented with an envelope of mine by wetting a paper towel and wiping the glue off. It dried quickly and did not leave the paper bubbled or looking at all defective. Before receiving the first one, he said something about HE must have licked the envelope to hard and therefore had to look for some tape to seal the envelope. That was earlier this year, before seeing this on TV in the Cold Case program and before finding and reading on this board.

I didn’t think anything at all when that letter came but I have at least six more and they are all sealed with tape. I can remove the tape to examine the flap without tearing and they all appear to have had the glue removed!

I can go on and on with Zchrisities but way too many. Do you think these envelopes with the tape would lend credence to my POI telling me his residence was examined as a potential crime scene after he fell and nearly died there? It is thought he was alone for almost two weeks before the police were called to do a welfare check.

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:01 pm

A very interesting NEW expansion on the NUMBER THEORY linking Zodiac murder dates.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90

Kathleen Johns (3/22/70) = 3 + 22 + 70 = 95

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85

VR Professor Snelling (9/11/75) = 9 + 11 + 75 = 95

ONS Mr. and Mrs. "H" (10/1/79) = 10 + 1 + 79 = 90

Flight 444 (11/15/79) = 11 + 15 + 79 = 105

ONS Domingo/Sanchez (7/27/81) 7 + 27 + 81 = 115

Joan Webster (11/28/81) = 11 + 28 + 81 = 120

ONS Janelle Cruz (5/4/86) = 95

This starts with the idea that the Zodiac symbol might have 0, 20, 40, 60, 80, 100 at the NORTH point, 5, 25, 45, 65, 85, 105 at the EAST point, 10, 30, 50, 70, 90, 110 at the SOUTH point and 15, 35, 55, 75, 95, 115 at the WEST point.

From KITE:

Okay, what I’ve got as a follow-up here is ABSOLUTELY COLOSSAL. This keeps getting crazier.

Okay, keep in mind the ZODIAC SYMBOL with the 0,5,10, and 15 at the points.

Okay, now I’ll go over the first FIVE Zodiac crime dates(excluding 3/22/70=(95) as only attempted: 12/20/68=(100), 7/4/69=(80), 9/27/69=(105) 10/11/69=(90) 6/19/70=(95). Oh yeah, if I made a mistake on this I’ll apologize now for the build-up.

But, those FIVE numbers are 80,90,95,100,105. Now divide them by FIVE and you have: 16,18,19,20,21.

Do those numbers look familiar? On the 6/26/70 letter, if I’m not mistaken, right after the 6/19/70 crime date, Zodiac leaves X’s on what would be the 6,8,9,10,11 places if the Zodiac symbol ran from ZERO to TWELVE. They match up with the crime date numbers divided by FIVE, only subtract TEN. (6,8,9,10,11) to (16,18,19,20,21).

With this parallel, the missing 7 represents the missing 85 from the crime dates. Now, can this all just be coincidence or was this the clue Zodiac left that confirms the whole crime dates number game? In other words, if you take the 5 numbers left on X’s by Zodiac from a ZERO to TWELVE based Zodiac symbol you have 6,8,9,10,11. Now add TEN to give you 16,18,19,20,21. Now multiply them by FIVE. You have: 80,90,95,100,105 Those number match the crime scene dates: 7/4/69=(80), 10/11/69=(90), 6/19/70=(95), 12/20/68=(100) 9/27/69=(105). See how a TEN and FIVE are used to do this? This is just totally unbelievable. If I didn’t make a mistake, this is just absolutely colossal!!! You know, I’m not positive that those x’s on the Zodiac symbol are from the 6/26/70 letter, I think they are. But, if so, the idea that that would directly follow the 6/19/70 is unbelievable. Can that be a coincidence? And, then, does that make it more likely that Zodiac was responsible on 6/19/70 or just quick to claim a date that completed his strange number game? This whole thing is just so unbelievably colossal, oh my it is.

AK = It was the November 9, 1969 "Bus Bomb" Letter to the SF Chronicle.

KITE [AK]: [JENSEN-FARADAY]12/20/68=(100), [FERRIN-MAGEAU]7/4/69=(80), [SHEPARD-HARTNELL]9/27/69=(105) [STINE]10/11/69=(90) [RADETICH]6/19/70=(95). Oh yeah, if I made a mistake on this I’ll apologize now for the build-up. But, those FIVE numbers are 80,90,95,100,105. Now divide them by FIVE and you have: 16,18,19,20,21. Do those numbers look familiar? On the [11/9/69] letter, if I’m not mistaken, right after the [10/11/69] crime date, Zodiac leaves X’s on what would be the 6,8,9,10,11 places if the Zodiac symbol ran from ZERO to TWELVE. They match up with the crime date numbers divided by FIVE, only subtract TEN. (6,8,9,10,11) to (16,18,19,20,21).

With this parallel,the missing 7 represents the missing 85 from the crime dates.[DONNA LASS][9/6/70=85. 85 divided by 5 = 17. 17 – 10 = 7. Was DONNA LASS the missing 7 spot?]

AK = Reading the Zodiac symbol as a clock face, I do see the marked spots as: 6, 8, 9, 10, 11.

In other words, Zodiac seems to mark the spots 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. And when you:

1. Add up the murder dates numbers as shown at the top

2. Divide by 5

3. Drop the first digit, i.e., subtract 10.

4. You get 6, 8, 9, 10, 11.

Meaningful? Or mumbo jumbo coincidence?

Viewing the Zodiac symbol as a clockface, Zodiac himself has marked 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. Missing is a 7.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100 Divided by 5 = 20 -10 = 10

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90 Divided by 5 = 18 – 10 =8

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95 Divided by 5 = 19 – 10 = 9

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85 Divided by 5 = 17 – 10 = 7

Sorry, got carried away with my first post. FYI, I would be a "50" following the number system using birthdates.
The only thing that seems odd about that is that some of these known killings were random, ie. Paul Stine (unless it was his brother). How would any suspect be able to know each of these victims birthdates as there doesn’t seem to be any one thing that links all of them to the same POI?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:11 pm

Those are not birth dates they are death dates.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:54 pm

The 4 confirmed crimes occurred on a Friday or Saturday. Here is the 1969 Calendar with the Friday and Saturday dates that are divisible by 5 in red. Surprisingly more than I would have thought. 104 combined Friday and Saturdays, 18 divisible by 5. Feel free to double check my work, had a long day in the sun. And yes, I know LHR was 1968…

ThebigZ – This study by Wrench/Bentley above shows the odds.

A very interesting NEW expansion on the NUMBER THEORY linking Zodiac murder dates.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90

Kathleen Johns (3/22/70) = 3 + 22 + 70 = 95

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85

VR Professor Snelling (9/11/75) = 9 + 11 + 75 = 95

ONS Mr. and Mrs. "H" (10/1/79) = 10 + 1 + 79 = 90

Flight 444 (11/15/79) = 11 + 15 + 79 = 105

ONS Domingo/Sanchez (7/27/81) 7 + 27 + 81 = 115

Joan Webster (11/28/81) = 11 + 28 + 81 = 120

ONS Janelle Cruz (5/4/86) = 95

AK = It was the November 9, 1969 "Bus Bomb" Letter to the SF Chronicle.

KITE [AK]: [JENSEN-FARADAY]12/20/68=(100), [FERRIN-MAGEAU]7/4/69=(80), [SHEPARD-HARTNELL]9/27/69=(105) [STINE]10/11/69=(90) [RADETICH]6/19/70=(95). Oh yeah, if I made a mistake on this I’ll apologize now for the build-up. But, those FIVE numbers are 80,90,95,100,105. Now divide them by FIVE and you have: 16,18,19,20,21. Do those numbers look familiar? On the [11/9/69] letter, if I’m not mistaken, right after the [10/11/69] crime date, Zodiac leaves X’s on what would be the 6,8,9,10,11 places if the Zodiac symbol ran from ZERO to TWELVE. They match up with the crime date numbers divided by FIVE, only subtract TEN. (6,8,9,10,11) to (16,18,19,20,21).

With this parallel,the missing 7 represents the missing 85 from the crime dates.[DONNA LASS][9/6/70=85. 85 divided by 5 = 17. 17 – 10 = 7. Was DONNA LASS the missing 7 spot?]

AK = Reading the Zodiac symbol as a clock face, I do see the marked spots as: 6, 8, 9, 10, 11.

In other words, Zodiac seems to mark the spots 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. And when you:

1. Add up the murder dates numbers as shown at the top

2. Divide by 5

3. Drop the first digit, i.e., subtract 10.

4. You get 6, 8, 9, 10, 11.

Meaningful?

Viewing the Zodiac symbol as a clockface, Zodiac himself has marked 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. Missing is a 7.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100 Divided by 5 = 20 -10 = 10

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90 Divided by 5 = 18 – 10 =8

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95 Divided by 5 = 19 – 10 = 9

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85 Divided by 5 = 17 – 10 = 7

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:16 pm

Thanks AK.

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:12 pm

Thanks AK.

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:02 pm

wow, this is very good. I think you guys are definitely on to something. This does not look like a coincidence as all of the confirmed murders and the two that are highly suspected of being Zodiac’s are all accounted for on his clock dial. Also, the fact that the same basic arithmetic is used for all dates without variance lends to the credibility. He could have very well been murdering to fill the digits on a clock. Possibly to signify time running out? By using a circle (clock face) to mark deaths, it reassures me that the Zodiac is a fanatic with the mathematical constant Pi.

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:33 am

This is a very interesting theory. Z may have just been testing the limits of LE’s imagination and intelligence to confirm his victims. Zodiac, however, would not have been able to "complete" his watch face using this particular formula (i.e., dividing the sum by five and then subtracting ten). The smallest number attainable (at least in the 20th century) would have been "5"… e.g., 1/5/69, 1/4/70, etc. The one, two, three, and four o’clock positions would be left blank unless he used a different formula. For the sake of argument, I determined which dates in 1969 through 1971 could have been used to fill the five and 12 o’clock positions (assuming that Lass would have filled seven o’clock). They are:

For five o’clock:

1/5/69 (Sun)
2/4/69 (Tues)
3/3/69 (Mon)
4/2/69 (Wed)
5/1/69 (Thurs)
1/4/70 (Sun)
2/3/70 (Tues)
3/2/70 (Mon)
4/1/70 (Wed)
1/3/71 (Sun)
2/2/71 (Tues)
3/1/71 (Mon)

For 12 o’clock:

10/31/69 (Fri)
11/30/69 (Sun)
12/29/69 (Mon)
10/30/70 (Fri)
11/29/70 (Sun)
12/28/70 (Mon)
8/31/71 (Tues)
9/30/71 (Thurs)
10/29/71 (Fri)
11/28/71 (Sun)
12/27/71 (Mon)

If we further narrow the sets by assuming Z only sought victims on a Friday or Saturday, then no dates (during 1969 through 1971) meet the criteria for five o’clock. There are three (all on Friday) for 12 o’clock:

10/31/69
10/30/70
10/29/71

None of those dates really jump out at me as one which corresponds to a possible Z murder date, but I’m going off failing memory.

-tbz

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:55 am

I agree with what you posted. Perhaps someone out there may recgonnize a date as an unsolved with murder, with at least some Z characteristics.

Your post did stimulate me to thinking, and I am not sure how I missed this, but consider these:

Judith Hakari = 3/7/70 = 80. 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Nancy Bennallack 10/25/70 = 105. 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Joan Webster 11/28/81 = 120. 120 Divided by 5 = 24 – 10 = 14 (Too high anumber for clockface). 14 – 10 = 4

Zodiac has been mentioned by police, reporters, Graysmith and researchers most often as perhaps responsible for there crimes in 1970:

Kathleen Johns 3/22/70
Richard Radetich 6/19/70
Judith Hakari 3/7/70
Nancy Bennallack 10/25/70

Zodiac claimed credit for Johns, hinted at Radetich, perhaps hinted at Bennallack with the "14" on the Halloween card. No hint at Hakari, but I do think he upped the victim count after her death.

All four match into the number theory. That is interesting, as all the four confirmed Z crimes also match into the number theory.

8 for 8.

You make a valid point about the inability to get a 1, 2, 3 or 4. That at least raises the possibility that the most logical way to do that consistent with the proposed system is simply to subtract 20 instead of 10. If you do that, then the Webster case fits and produces a 120 divided by 5 equals 24 subtract 20 and it equals 4.

As Mr. Spock would say, "Fascinating".

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:45 pm

It doesn’t tell us who Zodiac was, but it does point towards someone with an interest (if not obsession) with numbers, mathematics, logic, order, puzzles and patterns. Certainly Penn would fit the bill, Kaczynski too of course, even more so as he put the bomb on Flight 444 and is a suspect for the VR/EAR/ONS.

It is fascinating that all four confirmed Zodiac crimes show this pattern, and nobody ever noticed it until now! Add to that five possible Zodiac crimes. Incredible that they all fit this pattern.

Any random date has a 1/5 chance of being divisible by 5. So what are the odds that all four confirmed Z crimes are? And that three crimes Zodiac claimed credit for or hinted at credit for (Johns, Radetich, Lass) also fit the pattern?

Isn’t that like rolling a dice and getting a "1" seven times in a row?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:16 pm

Please don’t make long posts about a POI/suspect in a topic that is not about that. This topic is about the number theory. When someone makes off topic posts, it throws the discussion off track. Post about a POI only in the section for that POI please. Thank you.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:17 pm

ThebigZ – I agree with what you posted. Perhaps someone out there may recognize a date as an unsolved with murder, with at least some Z characteristics.

Your post did stimulate me to thinking, and I am not sure how I missed this, but consider these:

Judith Hakari = 3/7/70 = 80. 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Nancy Bennallack 10/25/70 = 105. 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Joan Webster 11/28/81 = 120. 120 Divided by 5 = 24 – 10 = 14 (Too high anumber for clockface). 14 – 10 = 4

Zodiac has been mentioned by police, reporters, Graysmith and researchers most often as perhaps responsible for there crimes in 1970:

Judith Hakari 3/7/70
Kathleen Johns 3/22/70
Richard Radetich 6/19/70
Donna Lass 9/6/70
Nancy Bennallack 10/25/70

Zodiac claimed credit for Johns, hinted at Radetich, hinted at Lass with the Pines card, probably hinted at Bennallack with the "14" on the Halloween card. No hint at Hakari, but I do think he upped the victim count after her death.

All five match into the number theory. That is interesting, as all the four confirmed Z crimes also match into the number theory.

9 for 9.

You make a valid point about the inability to get a 1, 2, 3 or 4. That at least raises the possibility that the most logical way to do that consistent with the proposed system is simply to subtract 20 instead of 10. If you do that, then the Webster case fits and produces a 120 divided by 5 equals 24 subtract 20 and it equals 4.

As Mr. Spock would say, "Fascinating".

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:34 pm

While we may not be perfectly correct with this theory, the odds of those known and suspected victims falling on dates that fit into it are staggeringly small. Incredible coincidence, if that’s what’s going on. This case always gives me something to think about.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:53 pm

This discussion has taken place in the past at ZKF. I illustrated my opinion there and I am copying and pasting my post here.

You can manipulate the numbers to say just about anything and it will still amount to absolutely nothing!

My conclusion is that both methods are a coincidence and one could probably invent yet another method to make the numbers say something.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:16 pm

Seagull what you are doing, your method, would reduce every single date to a single digit number, or a number 4 through 12.

You could take a hundred dates in history and using your method all would come down to about five different numbers.

I think, and I could be wrong, but I think what we are looking at here is something very different.

Any date in this time period COULD add up to numbers between 70 and 120, or so. That is very different. And yet, with this range, and the fact that only 1 out 5 random dates will end in a 0 or 5, we have all FOUR confirmed Zodiac crimes + all FIVE possible 1970 Zodiac crimes fitting, as they end in 0 or 5. Moreover, they also all fit into the spots that Zodiac marked on his symbol when the further method is applied.

So I do think there is something here to study, though your overall point of caution is well taken.

I would say lets look at the first 9 dates of murder in the Bundy and Green River cases, and see how many fit into the scheme. If one of those is 9 for 9, well that would be interesting and would cause me to lose interest in this theory. But if they are scattered, I think the fact that this theory is 9 for 9 is odds defying and thus at least worthy of further study IMO.

This was made be Bentley, the red are the Friday and Satuday dates in 1969 divisible by 5.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:38 pm

Given that it seems that all four confirmed Zodiac crimes fit the number theory, and all five possible 1970 Zodiac also fit the number theory, for 9 out of 9 total, I thought I would look at some dates in other serial murder cases to see if this was a common thing, and thus we are making something out of nothing, or if it is indeed rare.

I thought I would look at the first 9 or so dates in each case. Remember, Zodiac case is 9 for 9 on dates ending in a 0 or 5, i.e., they are divisible by 5.

Since 2 out of every 10 random dates will fit, we might expect 15 to 30% in any given case, just by chance. With Zodiac being 100% on 9 dates, it seems to be intentional.

GREEN RIVER KILLER:

1 Wendy Lee Coffield 16 July 8, 1982
2 Gisele Ann Lovvorn 17 July 17, 1982
3 Debra Lynn Bonner 23 July 25, 1982
4 Marcia Fay Chapman 31 August 1, 1982
5 Cynthia Jean Hinds 17 August 11, 1982
6 Opal Charmaine Mills 16 August 12, 1982
7 Terry Rene Milligan 16 August 29, 1982
8 Mary Bridget Meehan 18 September 15, 1982
9 Debra Lorraine Estes 15 September 20, 1982
10 Linda Jane Rule 16 September 26, 1982
11 Denise Darcel Bush 23 October 8, 1982

Of the first 11 murders, only the last one fits. So, 1 out of 11.

TED BUNDY

1974

January 4: Joni Lenz (pseudonym) (age 18): Bludgeoned and sexually assaulted in her bed as she slept[63] Survived[64][65]
February 1: Lynda Ann Healy (21): Bludgeoned while asleep; abducted[66] Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
March 12: Donna Gail Manson (19): Abducted while walking to concert at Evergreen State College. Body left (according to Bundy) at Taylor Mountain site, but never found[191]
April 17: Susan Elaine Rancourt (18): Disappeared after evening advisors’ meeting, Central Washington State College[67][68] Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
May 6: Roberta Kathleen Parks (22): Vanished from Oregon State University in Corvallis. Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
June 1: Brenda Carol Ball (22): Disappeared after leaving the Flame Tavern in Burien, Washington.[69] Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
June 11: Georgeann Hawkins (18): Disappeared from alley behind her sorority house, UW.[72] Skeletal remains recovered at Issaquah site[91]
July 14: Janice Ann Ott (23): Abducted from Lake Sammamish State Park in broad daylight.[83] Skeletal remains recovered at Issaquah site[90]
July 14: Denise Marie Naslund (19): Abducted four hours after Ott from the same park.[84] Skeletal remains recovered at Issaquah site[90]
October 2: Nancy Wilcox (16): Ambushed, assaulted, and strangled in Holladay, Utah.[98] Body never found
October 18: Melissa Anne Smith (17): Vanished from Midvale, Utah, after leaving a pizza parlor. Body found in nearby mountainous area[100]
October 31: Laura Aime (17): Disappeared from a Halloween party in Lehi, Utah. Body discovered by hikers in American Fork Canyon[102]
November 8: Carol DaRonch (18): Attempted abduction in Murray, Utah. Escaped from Bundy’s car and survived[104]
November 8: Debra Kent (17): Vanished after leaving a school play in Bountiful, Utah. Body left (according to Bundy) near Fairview, Utah; minimal skeletal remains (one patella) found, but never positively identified as Kent’s[247]

5 out of 14, about what you would expect by pure chance.

Jem, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:07 pm

While we may not be perfectly correct with this theory, the odds of those known and suspected victims falling on dates that fit into it are staggeringly small. Incredible coincidence, if that’s what’s going on. This case always gives me something to think about.

Staggeringly small, indeed! Just for the first seven dates, the odds of getting numbers all divisible by ANY integer (besides 1, of course) is about 1 in 125. Less than 1%.

The odds of the first seven numbers being divisible by 5 are 1 in 78,125. Then multiply that number by 5 for every additional date you believe was Zodiac’s work. That this is coincidence would be way beyond reasonable doubt.

By the way, notice that if you take each fifth letter of the name of one of the Z suspects, you get a WATER related word. Although this could very well be just coincidence:

THEOD
OREJO
HNKAC
ZYNSK
I

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:08 am

The 4 confirmed crimes occurred on a Friday or Saturday. Here is the 1969 Calendar with the Friday and Saturday dates that are divisible by 5 in red. Surprisingly more than I would have thought. 104 combined Friday and Saturdays, 18 divisible by 5. Feel free to double check my work, had a long day in the sun. And yes, I know LHR was 1968…

ThebigZ – This study by Wrench/Bentley above shows the odds.

A very interesting NEW expansion on the NUMBER THEORY linking Zodiac murder dates.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90

Kathleen Johns (3/22/70) = 3 + 22 + 70 = 95

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85

VR Professor Snelling (9/11/75) = 9 + 11 + 75 = 95

ONS Mr. and Mrs. "H" (10/1/79) = 10 + 1 + 79 = 90

Flight 444 (11/15/79) = 11 + 15 + 79 = 105

ONS Domingo/Sanchez (7/27/81) 7 + 27 + 81 = 115

Joan Webster (11/28/81) = 11 + 28 + 81 = 120

ONS Janelle Cruz (5/4/86) = 95

AK = It was the November 9, 1969 "Bus Bomb" Letter to the SF Chronicle.

KITE [AK]: [JENSEN-FARADAY]12/20/68=(100), [FERRIN-MAGEAU]7/4/69=(80), [SHEPARD-HARTNELL]9/27/69=(105) [STINE]10/11/69=(90) [RADETICH]6/19/70=(95). Oh yeah, if I made a mistake on this I’ll apologize now for the build-up. But, those FIVE numbers are 80,90,95,100,105. Now divide them by FIVE and you have: 16,18,19,20,21. Do those numbers look familiar? On the [11/9/69] letter, if I’m not mistaken, right after the [10/11/69] crime date, Zodiac leaves X’s on what would be the 6,8,9,10,11 places if the Zodiac symbol ran from ZERO to TWELVE. They match up with the crime date numbers divided by FIVE, only subtract TEN. (6,8,9,10,11) to (16,18,19,20,21).

With this parallel,the missing 7 represents the missing 85 from the crime dates.[DONNA LASS][9/6/70=85. 85 divided by 5 = 17. 17 – 10 = 7. Was DONNA LASS the missing 7 spot?]

AK = Reading the Zodiac symbol as a clock face, I do see the marked spots as: 6, 8, 9, 10, 11.

In other words, Zodiac seems to mark the spots 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. And when you:

1. Add up the murder dates numbers as shown at the top

2. Divide by 5

3. Drop the first digit, i.e., subtract 10.

4. You get 6, 8, 9, 10, 11.

Meaningful?

Viewing the Zodiac symbol as a clockface, Zodiac himself has marked 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. Missing is a 7.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100 Divided by 5 = 20 -10 = 10

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90 Divided by 5 = 18 – 10 =8

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95 Divided by 5 = 19 – 10 = 9

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85 Divided by 5 = 17 – 10 = 7

—————————–

I think this defies the odds and was very likely intentionally planned by Zodiac. It is significant for many reasons, including IMO increasing the likelihood that Zodiac was the killer in Lass, Hakari and Bennallack. Which means Zodiac was doing home invasion murders in Sacramento, just a couple of years before the EAR/ONS started doing the same thing. If there is a flaw in this theory, I am open to someone showing it to me.

ThebigZ – I agree with what you posted. Perhaps someone out there may recognize a date as an unsolved with murder, with at least some Z characteristics.

Your post did stimulate me to thinking, and I am not sure how I missed this, but consider these:

Judith Hakari = 3/7/70 = 80. 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Nancy Bennallack 10/25/70 = 105. 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Joan Webster 11/28/81 = 120. 120 Divided by 5 = 24 – 10 = 14 (Too high anumber for clockface). 14 – 10 = 4

Zodiac has been mentioned by police, reporters, Graysmith and researchers most often as perhaps responsible for there crimes in 1970:

Judith Hakari 3/7/70
Kathleen Johns 3/22/70
Richard Radetich 6/19/70
Donna Lass 9/6/70
Nancy Bennallack 10/25/70

Zodiac claimed credit for Johns, hinted at Radetich, hinted at Lass with the Pines card, probably hinted at Bennallack with the "14" on the Halloween card. No hint at Hakari, but I do think he upped the victim count after her death.

All five match into the number theory. That is interesting, as all the four confirmed Z crimes also match into the number theory.

9 for 9.

You make a valid point about the inability to get a 1, 2, 3 or 4. That at least raises the possibility that the most logical way to do that consistent with the proposed system is simply to subtract 20 instead of 10. If you do that, then the Webster case fits and produces a 120 divided by 5 equals 24 subtract 20 and it equals 4.

As Mr. Spock would say, "Fascinating".

rand, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:38 pm

AK, put down the Penn books — they’re poison

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:02 pm

Rand – This does not come from Penn, and has none of his binary (IMO) nonsense. This was developed and worked on by Kite, AK Wilks, Bentley/Wrench, thebigZ and others.

ALL FOUR CONFIRMED ZODIAC CASES AND THE FIVE POSSIBLE CASES FROM 1970 ALL HAVE DATES THAT ADD UP TO NUMBERS DIVISIBLE BY 5.

9 out of 9.

This defies the odds of chance, which should be 1 out of 5. It may be worthy of further investigation, debate and study. Or maybe not. I am not sure what it means. If you or anyone else can refute it or have a valid criticism lets see it.

The 4 confirmed crimes occurred on a Friday or Saturday. Here is the 1969 Calendar with the Friday and Saturday dates that are divisible by 5 in red. Surprisingly more than I would have thought. 104 combined Friday and Saturdays, 18 divisible by 5. Feel free to double check my work, had a long day in the sun. And yes, I know LHR was 1968…

ThebigZ – This study by Wrench/Bentley above shows the odds.

A very interesting NEW expansion on the NUMBER THEORY linking Zodiac murder dates.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90

Kathleen Johns (3/22/70) = 3 + 22 + 70 = 95

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85

VR Professor Snelling (9/11/75) = 9 + 11 + 75 = 95

ONS Mr. and Mrs. "H" (10/1/79) = 10 + 1 + 79 = 90

Flight 444 (11/15/79) = 11 + 15 + 79 = 105

ONS Domingo/Sanchez (7/27/81) 7 + 27 + 81 = 115

Joan Webster (11/28/81) = 11 + 28 + 81 = 120

ONS Janelle Cruz (5/4/86) = 95

AK = It was the November 9, 1969 "Bus Bomb" Letter to the SF Chronicle.

KITE [AK]: [JENSEN-FARADAY]12/20/68=(100), [FERRIN-MAGEAU]7/4/69=(80), [SHEPARD-HARTNELL]9/27/69=(105) [STINE]10/11/69=(90) [RADETICH]6/19/70=(95). Oh yeah, if I made a mistake on this I’ll apologize now for the build-up. But, those FIVE numbers are 80,90,95,100,105. Now divide them by FIVE and you have: 16,18,19,20,21. Do those numbers look familiar? On the [11/9/69] letter, if I’m not mistaken, right after the [10/11/69] crime date, Zodiac leaves X’s on what would be the 6,8,9,10,11 places if the Zodiac symbol ran from ZERO to TWELVE. They match up with the crime date numbers divided by FIVE, only subtract TEN. (6,8,9,10,11) to (16,18,19,20,21).

With this parallel,the missing 7 represents the missing 85 from the crime dates.[DONNA LASS][9/6/70=85. 85 divided by 5 = 17. 17 – 10 = 7. Was DONNA LASS the missing 7 spot?]

AK = Reading the Zodiac symbol as a clock face, I do see the marked spots as: 6, 8, 9, 10, 11.

In other words, Zodiac seems to mark the spots 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. And when you:

1. Add up the murder dates numbers as shown at the top

2. Divide by 5

3. Drop the first digit, i.e., subtract 10.

4. You get 6, 8, 9, 10, 11.

Meaningful?

Viewing the Zodiac symbol as a clockface, Zodiac himself has marked 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. Missing is a 7.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100 Divided by 5 = 20 -10 = 10

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90 Divided by 5 = 18 – 10 =8

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95 Divided by 5 = 19 – 10 = 9

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85 Divided by 5 = 17 – 10 = 7

—————————–

I think this defies the odds and was very likely intentionally planned by Zodiac. It is significant for many reasons, including IMO increasing the likelihood that Zodiac was the killer in Lass, Hakari and Bennallack. Which means Zodiac was doing home invasion murders in Sacramento, just a couple of years before the EAR/ONS started doing the same thing. If there is a flaw in this theory, I am open to someone showing it to me.

ThebigZ – I agree with what you posted. Perhaps someone out there may recognize a date as an unsolved with murder, with at least some Z characteristics.

Your post did stimulate me to thinking, and I am not sure how I missed this, but consider these:

Judith Hakari = 3/7/70 = 80. 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Nancy Bennallack 10/25/70 = 105. 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Joan Webster 11/28/81 = 120. 120 Divided by 5 = 24 – 10 = 14 (Too high anumber for clockface). 14 – 10 = 4

Zodiac has been mentioned by police, reporters, Graysmith and researchers most often as perhaps responsible for there crimes in 1970:

Judith Hakari 3/7/70
Kathleen Johns 3/22/70
Richard Radetich 6/19/70
Donna Lass 9/6/70
Nancy Bennallack 10/25/70

Zodiac claimed credit for Johns, hinted at Radetich, hinted at Lass with the Pines card, probably hinted at Bennallack with the "14" on the Halloween card. No hint at Hakari, but I do think he upped the victim count after her death.

All five match into the number theory. That is interesting, as all the four confirmed Z crimes also match into the number theory.

9 for 9.

You make a valid point about the inability to get a 1, 2, 3 or 4. That at least raises the possibility that the most logical way to do that consistent with the proposed system is simply to subtract 20 instead of 10. If you do that, then the Webster case fits and produces a 120 divided by 5 equals 24 subtract 20 and it equals 4.

As Mr. Spock would say, "Fascinating".

rand, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:28 pm

It just shows how you can put incredible intellects together and they’ll come to the conclusion that 2+2=5. Z wasn’t a mathematician, he wasn’t a super genius, he was a dumb, bombastic, self-important moron who killed people to feed his sick ego. You’re overintellectualizing the case; I think you may be suffering from illusory causation and a bad case of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:03 am

Given that it seems that all four confirmed Zodiac crimes fit the number theory, and all five possible 1970 Zodiac also fit the number theory, for 9 out of 9 total, I thought I would look at some dates in other serial murder cases to see if this was a common thing, and thus we are making something out of nothing, or if it is indeed rare.

I thought I would look at the first 9 or so dates in each case. Remember, Zodiac case is 9 for 9 on dates ending in a 0 or 5, i.e., they are divisible by 5.

Since 2 out of every 10 random dates will fit, or 20%, we might expect 0 to 40% in any given case, just by chance.

GREEN RIVER KILLER:

1 Wendy Lee Coffield 16 July 8, 1982
2 Gisele Ann Lovvorn 17 July 17, 1982
3 Debra Lynn Bonner 23 July 25, 1982
4 Marcia Fay Chapman 31 August 1, 1982
5 Cynthia Jean Hinds 17 August 11, 1982
6 Opal Charmaine Mills 16 August 12, 1982
7 Terry Rene Milligan 16 August 29, 1982
8 Mary Bridget Meehan 18 September 15, 1982
9 Debra Lorraine Estes 15 September 20, 1982
10 Linda Jane Rule 16 September 26, 1982
11 Denise Darcel Bush 23 October 8, 1982

Of the first 11 murders, only the last one fits. So, 1 out of 11.

TED BUNDY

1974

January 4: Joni Lenz (pseudonym) (age 18): Bludgeoned and sexually assaulted in her bed as she slept[63] Survived[64][65]
February 1: Lynda Ann Healy (21): Bludgeoned while asleep; abducted[66] Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
March 12: Donna Gail Manson (19): Abducted while walking to concert at Evergreen State College. Body left (according to Bundy) at Taylor Mountain site, but never found[191]
April 17: Susan Elaine Rancourt (18): Disappeared after evening advisors’ meeting, Central Washington State College[67][68] Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
May 6: Roberta Kathleen Parks (22): Vanished from Oregon State University in Corvallis. Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
June 1: Brenda Carol Ball (22): Disappeared after leaving the Flame Tavern in Burien, Washington.[69] Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
June 11: Georgeann Hawkins (18): Disappeared from alley behind her sorority house, UW.[72] Skeletal remains recovered at Issaquah site[91]
July 14: Janice Ann Ott (23): Abducted from Lake Sammamish State Park in broad daylight.[83] Skeletal remains recovered at Issaquah site[90]
July 14: Denise Marie Naslund (19): Abducted four hours after Ott from the same park.[84] Skeletal remains recovered at Issaquah site[90]
October 2: Nancy Wilcox (16): Ambushed, assaulted, and strangled in Holladay, Utah.[98] Body never found
October 18: Melissa Anne Smith (17): Vanished from Midvale, Utah, after leaving a pizza parlor. Body found in nearby mountainous area[100]
October 31: Laura Aime (17): Disappeared from a Halloween party in Lehi, Utah. Body discovered by hikers in American Fork Canyon[102]
November 8: Carol DaRonch (18): Attempted abduction in Murray, Utah. Escaped from Bundy’s car and survived[104]
November 8: Debra Kent (17): Vanished after leaving a school play in Bountiful, Utah. Body left (according to Bundy) near Fairview, Utah; minimal skeletal remains (one patella) found, but never positively identified as Kent’s[247]

5 out of 14 are divisible by 5.
—————————————————-

Remember, 1 out of 5 random numbers will be divisible by 5. That is 20%. Given normal variance, we might expect to see 0% to 40% on any given set of numbers.

TED BUNDY: 5 out of 14 are divisible by 5, about what you would expect by pure chance. About 36%.
GREEN RIVER KILLER: 1 out of 11. About 9%.
ZODIAC KILLER: 9 out of 9. 100%

rand, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:19 am

Do extra large letters in red mean something special that I’m unaware of? I got it: Z divided the date (leaving out the 19 prior to the year) by 5 and then subtracted 10. This yields: 6,8,9,10,11. He leaves out the 7. Fascinating. And why did he do this? :scratch:

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:33 am

Do extra large letters in red mean something special that I’m unaware of? I got it: Z divided the date (leaving out the 19 prior to the year) by 5 and then subtracted 10. This yields: 6,8,9,10,11. He leaves out the 7. Fascinating. And why did he do this? :scratch:

Answer: I don’t know.

But it matches what he did on the Zodiac symbol image in a letter. Pure speculation here, but could it be some kind of mathematical game, a way for him to keep score, to plan murders on certain dates to fit the plan? I just don’t know why he did it, but unless someone can see a flaw in the numbers used by myself, thebigZ and Bentley, it seems he did do it. As John Douglas would say about a serial killer and a weird signature, "I don’t know why he did it. But he did it anyway. He felt the need to do it."

Image in the November 9, 1969 "Bus Bomb" Letter to the SF Chronicle.

Viewing the Zodiac symbol as a clockface, Zodiac himself has marked 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. Missing is a 7.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100 Divided by 5 = 20 -10 = 10

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90 Divided by 5 = 18 – 10 =8

So in November 1969, Zodiac has "filled in" a 6, 8, 10 and 11. A 9 is marked but we have no victim to fit a 9, and the 7 is missing.

Now look at this, two murders in 1970 in which most believe Zodiac hinted at credit and/or was suspected by some of doing.

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95 Divided by 5 = 19 – 10 = 9

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85 Divided by 5 = 17 – 10 = 7

Those two murders create the 9 and 7.

rand, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:40 am

When the actual Z story finally surfaces some day, and I hope it does, I have a strong feeling that you’re going to be very disappointed.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:09 am

Why?

Because Zodiac is going to say "By the way, please tell AK Wilks I was not picking murder dates that were divisible by 5, to create the numbers 5-8-9-10-11 that I marked on the Zodiac symbol I drew on a letter. That was just a coincidence."

Umm, fine by me. This is not my discovery, I am just noting that by chance about 20% or so of dates should be divisible by 5, and here he have 4 out of 4 confirmed Zodiac crimes that fit, and 5 out of 5 of the 1970 possibles. that is 9 out of 9 total. Its odd.

I don’t know what it may mean, I am noting it for further discussion and study, if it interests others. If it doesn’t, then who cares. The thread dies. Move on. Next.

I have a very string feeling you will be very, very disappointed when someone is indicted by a grand jury for the Zodiac murders. Time will tell.

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:47 am

Does this number theory have any basis in fact? Hell, I dunno. But that’s why it’s in the "Theories" section. I for one will not be disappointed at all if it turns out to be nothing more than coincidence. There’s (probably) only one Zodiac Killer, so all the information we’ve dug up on various POI’s over the years is obviously going to be coincidence laden as well. If Z is ever identified, I think people will be more concerned about trying to fill their time with another "hobby" rather than being upset that it wasn’t their POI (if they have one).

morf13, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:58 am

Does this number theory have any basis in fact? Hell, I dunno. But that’s why it’s in the "Theories" section. I for one will not be disappointed at all if it turns out to be nothing more than coincidence. There’s (probably) only one Zodiac Killer, so all the information we’ve dug up on various POI’s over the years is obviously going to be coincidence laden as well. If Z is ever identified, I think people will be more concerned about trying to fill their time with another "hobby" rather than being upset that it wasn’t their POI (if they have one).

The word is….ZYNCRONICITY…..we see it at every turn it seems.

When I was about 18, I was working at a gas station pumping gas. One day, a large military truck pulling a giant piece of equipment on wheels(bigger than a monster truck), was coming down a hill near my gas station. As I was standing there pumping gas, I thought to myself that if the piece of equipment being hauled suddenly broke loose, there would be major destruction. Suddenly, at that very second that I thought that, the piece of equipment did indeed break loose, and suddenly started coming towards me and the gas pumps. ( 100% True story), within a mili-second, I made the choice to run like hell (while feeling sorry for the person that was sitting in their car as I pumped their gas, as I imagined a huge explosion). Luckily, as I started to run, the piece of equipment hit a pothole or something, veered off, and flipped over in the road about 10 yards from the pumps. Nobody was hurt, there were no explosions, only a couple military guys jumping out of their truck in a panic.(Later I found out the thing on wheels was a massive sized portabale washer & dryer system that the military uses when they are out in the field). The moral of the story is that I am not psychic. I never have had another "premonition", or experienced another "vision". It was a coincidence. I think that is what we see here in the Z case alot. I cant tell you how many things of interest I have chased down, and how many hours I spent going after something, only to verify it was a coincidence.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:06 am

I agree, there are incredible and weird coincidences in life.

But what about when Scott Peterson says "Yes, I never went fishing before, but I decided to go fishing right after my wife vanished, and the fact that her body was found near where I was fishing is just coincidence."? I say, "No that is likely not a coincidence."

If this was 6 out of 9, or even 7 out of 9, it is not as compelling and probably just coincidence. But when we see 1 out of 11 for Green River Killer, 5 out of 14 for Bundy, but then 9 out of 9 for Zodiac, to me it becomes enough of a statistically improbable stand out that it merits further consideration. Some agree, some don’t.

The problem is I don’t know yet what the next step would be.

Perhaps to look at some other unsolved murders in which Z is suspected and see if any fit the pattern and/or take a closer look at MO, timeline, witness descriptions in some of the cases that fit the patterns here that are usually ignored, like Radetich, Hakari, Bennallack, or don’t get as much attention as others, like Lass.

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 am

Does this number theory have any basis in fact? Hell, I dunno. But that’s why it’s in the "Theories" section. I for one will not be disappointed at all if it turns out to be nothing more than coincidence. There’s (probably) only one Zodiac Killer, so all the information we’ve dug up on various POI’s over the years is obviously going to be coincidence laden as well. If Z is ever identified, I think people will be more concerned about trying to fill their time with another "hobby" rather than being upset that it wasn’t their POI (if they have one).

The one definite pattern is the murders all occurred on Fridays or Saturdays. I agree the rest could well be coincidence or just because he was in the mood. I would be more inclined to think he is a lunatic and would like to see a listing of all the dates of these murders on a lunar calendar to see if there is a link, ie. certain phases of the moon. Even then, there could be no meaning.

A list of all these known murders in chronological order would be good along with the name of the suspect or poi. That would then make it easier to see other patterns such as geographical, m.o., any descriptions or sketches.

It seems the only ones known for sure are the ones involving Ted Kaczinkski and the known ones Z claimed.

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:57 am

When the actual Z story finally surfaces some day, and I hope it does, I have a strong feeling that you’re going to be very disappointed.

I meant to say above that a MERGED LIST would be helpful. We know these murders were done on Fridays and Saturdays but what about all the others that are unsolved, ie. Tylenol, the family murders, the ones in other parts of the country. Were they also done on Fridays and Saturdays and if not, that might help eliminate or identify poi’s. Maybe a different pattern would emerge.

Aside from the number theory, codes, etc. I find this pink paper an example of what seems very unusual. Notice the way the shades fade into each other. This does not look like any type of pattern such as clouds that is seen on writing papers sometimes. It just looks very odd to me. It doesn’t appear faded or aged but I wonder what is causing the different shades of pink. This one is a deeper and more consistent shade of pink than the others posted elsewhere. The only thing that comes to mind is that possibly an eraser was used and there are ink erasers.

This fading might be hard for some people to see depending on their eyesight and computer screen but it is quite noticeable to me. Has anyone ever seen this paper anywhere. We know the lined loose leaf paper Z used is very common and we’ve all seen that but the pink paper just doesn’t look like anything I’ve ever seen before.

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:52 am

Wilks, you seem to be quite the mathematical genius and wonder if you’d come up with or could make anything out of these codes with these ideas in mind.

An isosocles (sp?) triangle (equal on all sides) would mean a space.

Greek letters would have meaning as would the numer 2 to the 4th power which I believe is 16. Also the Greek letters for the accounting society could be very significant.

Green would mean "new life" or "new beginning" and red would signify "blood" to him.

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:55 pm

Do extra large letters in red mean something special that I’m unaware of? I got it: Z divided the date (leaving out the 19 prior to the year) by 5 and then subtracted 10. This yields: 6,8,9,10,11. He leaves out the 7. Fascinating. And why did he do this? :scratch:

Answer: I don’t know.

But it matches what he did on the Zodiac symbol image in a letter. Pure speculation here, but could it be some kind of mathematical game, a way for him to keep score, to plan murders on certain dates to fit the plan? I just don’t know why he did it, but unless someone can see a flaw in the numbers used by myself, thebigZ and Bentley, it seems he did do it. As John Douglas would say about a serial killer and a weird signature, "I don’t know why he did it. But he did it anyway. He felt the need to do it."

Image in the November 9, 1969 "Bus Bomb" Letter to the SF Chronicle.

Viewing the Zodiac symbol as a clockface, Zodiac himself has marked 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. Missing is a 7.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100 Divided by 5 = 20 -10 = 10

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90 Divided by 5 = 18 – 10 =8

So in November 1969, Zodiac has "filled in" a 6, 8, 10 and 11. A 9 is marked but we have no victim to fit a 9, and the 7 is missing.

Now look at this, two murders in 1970 in which most believe Zodiac hinted at credit and/or was suspected by some of doing.

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95 Divided by 5 = 19 – 10 = 9

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85 Divided by 5 = 17 – 10 = 7

Those two murders create the 9 and 7.

Excuse me going OT but Wilks I think you’ve missed your true calling and should have been a mathemetician

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:42 pm

I was thinking of the saying "even a broken clock is right twice a day" and there are 24 hours in a day. If Z really planned these murders using some number theory, I wonder when he had time to figure it all out. He must have had a lot of time on his hands and few if any friends and then remembered there are 24 hours in a day!

Therefore, if a particular murder doesn’t fit one of these mathematical theories (which are way over my head and give me a headache so I’m not even going to try to apply any of them, which is my problem and my hat is off to those who can) don’t be too quick to discard as Z claimed over 100 or so didn’t he, the last I read. He could have several factors he was taking into consideration, if he even knew himself.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:52 pm

Luke this number theory involves a clock face and positions 1 through 12.

KEY.SMITH697, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:41 pm

:study: Good Cell, Lovethecar. I do liKe your way of thinKing out side the box. And I do agree Z had a lot of time on his hands :no: friends. :scratch: 24 hours in a day, that is a lot of time to plan a murder. You just need the right place at the right time of day or night. AND LOVETHECAR, I like an 1957 T bird, midnight blue with white seats and it can only play 60s-70s-80s music. 8) I have a fast car, but that would be so…… cool.

AK Wilks, Subject: DORANCHAK or AQUI wanna do a probability study on this? Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:59 pm

This was developed and worked on by Kite, AK Wilks, Bentley/Wrench, thebigZ and others.

ALL FOUR CONFIRMED ZODIAC CASES AND THE FIVE POSSIBLE CASES FROM 1970 ALL HAVE DATES THAT ADD UP TO NUMBERS DIVISIBLE BY 5.

9 out of 9.

This defies the odds of chance, which should be 1 out of 5. It may be worthy of further investigation, debate and study. Or maybe not. I am not sure what it means. If you or anyone else can refute it or have a valid criticism lets see it.

The 4 confirmed crimes occurred on a Friday or Saturday. Here is the 1969 Calendar with the Friday and Saturday dates that are divisible by 5 in red. Surprisingly more than I would have thought. 104 combined Friday and Saturdays, 18 divisible by 5. Feel free to double check my work, had a long day in the sun. And yes, I know LHR was 1968…

ThebigZ – This study by Wrench/Bentley above shows the odds.

A very interesting NEW expansion on the NUMBER THEORY linking Zodiac murder dates.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90

Kathleen Johns (3/22/70) = 3 + 22 + 70 = 95

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85

VR Professor Snelling (9/11/75) = 9 + 11 + 75 = 95

ONS Mr. and Mrs. "H" (10/1/79) = 10 + 1 + 79 = 90

Flight 444 (11/15/79) = 11 + 15 + 79 = 105

ONS Domingo/Sanchez (7/27/81) 7 + 27 + 81 = 115

Joan Webster (11/28/81) = 11 + 28 + 81 = 120

ONS Janelle Cruz (5/4/86) = 95

AK = It was the November 9, 1969 "Bus Bomb" Letter to the SF Chronicle.

KITE [AK]: [JENSEN-FARADAY]12/20/68=(100), [FERRIN-MAGEAU]7/4/69=(80), [SHEPARD-HARTNELL]9/27/69=(105) [STINE]10/11/69=(90) [RADETICH]6/19/70=(95). Oh yeah, if I made a mistake on this I’ll apologize now for the build-up. But, those FIVE numbers are 80,90,95,100,105. Now divide them by FIVE and you have: 16,18,19,20,21. Do those numbers look familiar? On the [11/9/69] letter, if I’m not mistaken, right after the [10/11/69] crime date, Zodiac leaves X’s on what would be the 6,8,9,10,11 places if the Zodiac symbol ran from ZERO to TWELVE. They match up with the crime date numbers divided by FIVE, only subtract TEN. (6,8,9,10,11) to (16,18,19,20,21).

With this parallel,the missing 7 represents the missing 85 from the crime dates.[DONNA LASS][9/6/70=85. 85 divided by 5 = 17. 17 – 10 = 7. Was DONNA LASS the missing 7 spot?]

AK = Reading the Zodiac symbol as a clock face, I do see the marked spots as: 6, 8, 9, 10, 11.

In other words, Zodiac seems to mark the spots 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. And when you:

1. Add up the murder dates numbers as shown at the top

2. Divide by 5

3. Drop the first digit, i.e., subtract 10.

4. You get 6, 8, 9, 10, 11.

Meaningful?

Viewing the Zodiac symbol as a clockface, Zodiac himself has marked 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. Missing is a 7.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100 Divided by 5 = 20 -10 = 10

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90 Divided by 5 = 18 – 10 =8

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95 Divided by 5 = 19 – 10 = 9

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85 Divided by 5 = 17 – 10 = 7

—————————–

I think this defies the odds and was very likely intentionally planned by Zodiac. It is significant for many reasons, including IMO increasing the likelihood that Zodiac was the killer in Lass, Hakari and Bennallack. Which means Zodiac was doing home invasion murders in Sacramento, just a couple of years before the EAR/ONS started doing the same thing. If there is a flaw in this theory, I am open to someone showing it to me.

ThebigZ – I agree with what you posted. Perhaps someone out there may recognize a date as an unsolved with murder, with at least some Z characteristics.

Your post did stimulate me to thinking, and I am not sure how I missed this, but consider these:

Judith Hakari = 3/7/70 = 80. 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Nancy Bennallack 10/25/70 = 105. 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Joan Webster 11/28/81 = 120. 120 Divided by 5 = 24 – 10 = 14 (Too high anumber for clockface). 14 – 10 = 4

Zodiac has been mentioned by police, reporters, Graysmith and researchers most often as perhaps responsible for there crimes in 1970:

Judith Hakari 3/7/70
Kathleen Johns 3/22/70
Richard Radetich 6/19/70
Donna Lass 9/6/70
Nancy Bennallack 10/25/70

Zodiac claimed credit for Johns, hinted at Radetich, hinted at Lass with the Pines card, probably hinted at Bennallack with the "14" on the Halloween card. No hint at Hakari, but I do think he upped the victim count after her death.

All five match into the number theory. That is interesting, as all the four confirmed Z crimes also match into the number theory.

9 for 9.

You make a valid point about the inability to get a 1, 2, 3 or 4. That at least raises the possibility that the most logical way to do that consistent with the proposed system is simply to subtract 20 instead of 10. If you do that, then the Webster case fits and produces a 120 divided by 5 equals 24 subtract 20 and it equals 4.

As Mr. Spock would say, "Fascinating".

zodio, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:47 am

Wow! That is interesting.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:16 pm

READ AS A CLOCKFACE, WHY DOES ZODIAC MARK THE 6, 8, 9, 10 AND 11 SPOTS ON HIS SYMBOL?

WHY DOES HE DO THAT? WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

KITE: What might be an interesting visual presentation are the dates Zodic acted on. If you take a Zodiac symbol and assign ONE thru TWELVE on the points. Now change that to match the Zodiac dates, or in other words:

(1=55),(2=60),(3=65),(4=70),(5=75),(6=80),(7=85),(8=90),(9=95),(10=100),(11=105),(12=110)

So this is not subjectively placing numbers at the point but matches the ONE thru TWELVE and is just MULTIPLYING by FIVE and, after all, MULTIPLES OF FIVE are what this is all about. Zodiac marked the points 6,8,9,10,11 with X’s in a November 9, 1969 communication. With the adjusted multiplied by five Zodiac symbol, he is giving us the numbers: (80),(90),(95),(100),(105). And the 4 dates he has already acted on up to this time are:

12/20/68 (12+20+68)=100
7/4/69….(7+4+69)=80
9/27/69..(9+27+69)=105
10/11/69.(10+11+69)=90

So, you have a match for 4 of the 5 numbers and as it will turn out, the next date 3/22/70(3+22+70)=95, is the extra 95 and so it ends up as the 5 numbers(80,90,95,100,105) being the 4 dates already acted on and what will be the next. And, Zodiac wrote next to the Zodiac symbol with the X’s……….. (be sure to print the part I marked out on page 3 or I shall do my thing), so the extra X=95 that turns out as the next date (he at least alludes to) might express the threat left by the Zodiac symbol.

I think it would take an astronomical coincidence, no pun intended, for all the number matches or otherwise numerical allignment to be a coincidence. And then add to that that the next date is also a 95…..6/19/70(6+19+70)=95.

What are the odds of that meaning that a repeat 95 follows a 95 that Zodiac would probably consider an unsuccessful attempt? In other words, he still needed a 95 and what I mean by that is I believe the result Zodiac wanted was to put SIX LINES thru all 12 points of the Zodiac symbol, being symbolic of all 12 signs of the Zodiac.

So if you were to draw a straight line thru the Zodiac points(80,90,95,100,105) and their opposite counterpart, so to speak. In other words point 80 connects to point 110(or point 6 to point 12). Point 90 to point 60(point 8 to point 2). Point 95 to point 65(point 9 to point 3). Point 100 to point 70(point 10 to point 4). Point 105 to pint 75(point 11 to point 5).

So, here, at this point!, you only have POINT 85 to POINT 55(or point 7 to pint 1) to complete the ZODIAC CIRCLE and that is exactly what you get with the Donna Lass case and the date 9/6/70(9+6+70)=85!

GRAPHIC BY AWESHUCKS:

KITE: DES JULY AUG SEPT OCT=7 and then adding up those months numbers-for-letters=(DES+JULY+AUG+SEPT+OCT=223). So, that results as 223=7. And then that matches in that 2+2+3=7. I didn’t notice this the first time, but by it being 2+2+3=7, that would be like Zodiac saying "See, you need to add the dates I left on the car door in that fashion". In other words:

2+2+3=7
12+20+68=100
7+4+69=80
9+27+69=105

AK WILKS: AweShucks – Great work! Looks very clean and concise. Both the clock chart and the postcard graphic get across complex information in a straightforward way.

If you can do one other version of the clock/zodiac symbol, I might suggest adding what I consider to be a possible "second round" of murders in 1970.

Judith Hakari = 3/7/70 = 80. 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Nancy Bennallack 10/25/70 = 105. 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Zodiac has been mentioned by police, reporters, Graysmith and researchers most often as perhaps responsible for these crimes in 1970:

Judith Hakari 3/7/70
Kathleen Johns 3/22/70
Richard Radetich 6/19/70
Donna Lass 9/6/70
Nancy Bennallack 10/25/70

Zodiac claimed credit for Johns, probably hinted at Radetich, probably hinted at Lass with the Pines card, possibily hinted at Bennallack with the "14" on the Halloween card. No hint that I am aware of at Hakari, but I do think he upped the victim count after her death.

All five match into the number theory. That is interesting, as all the four confirmed Z crimes also match into the number theory.

What are the odds of that???

GRAPHIC BY AWESHUCKS

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:12 am

The way the numbers are written, it is almost like the first part of a math problem. They are there to be added up.

Interestingly, if you take 9/27/69 it equals 105. But the way Zodiac writes "Sept" instead of "9" it would not work, except he adds "6:30" and 6+3 = 9, so as 27 + 69 + 9 it still equals 105.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:40 pm

Dan G – I moved your post because it was POI specific, and this is in the Zodiac Theories section, which is NON-POI. Even though your post was interesting (and about my favorite POI) I moved it to comply with our site rules. We have found we need to strictly enforce those or all the general sections get filled up with POI stuff. Some people just do not favor the POI approach or do not like to read about certain POI’s, so we can talk about pros and cons of POI’s but only in the POI threads.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:46 pm

I would challenge doranchak, thebigZ, traveller1st or other members of the "Skeptical Club" to take on this theory and shoot it down, expose the flaws, establish the probability and/or confirm it.

Given that it seems that all four confirmed Zodiac crimes fit the number theory, and all five possible 1970 Zodiac also fit the number theory, for 9 out of 9 total, I thought I would look at some dates in other serial murder cases to see if this was a common thing, and thus we are making something out of nothing, or if it is indeed rare.

I thought I would look at the first 9 or so dates in each case. Remember, Zodiac case is 9 for 9 on dates ending in a 0 or 5, i.e., they are divisible by 5.

Since 2 out of every 10 random dates will fit, or 20%, we might expect 0 to 40% in any given case, just by chance. Sound about right?

GREEN RIVER KILLER:

1 Wendy Lee Coffield 16 July 8, 1982
2 Gisele Ann Lovvorn 17 July 17, 1982
3 Debra Lynn Bonner 23 July 25, 1982
4 Marcia Fay Chapman 31 August 1, 1982
5 Cynthia Jean Hinds 17 August 11, 1982
6 Opal Charmaine Mills 16 August 12, 1982
7 Terry Rene Milligan 16 August 29, 1982
8 Mary Bridget Meehan 18 September 15, 1982
9 Debra Lorraine Estes 15 September 20, 1982
10 Linda Jane Rule 16 September 26, 1982
11 Denise Darcel Bush 23 October 8, 1982

Of the first 11 murders, only the last one fits. So, 1 out of 11.

TED BUNDY

1974

January 4: Joni Lenz (pseudonym) (age 18): Bludgeoned and sexually assaulted in her bed as she slept[63] Survived[64][65]
February 1: Lynda Ann Healy (21): Bludgeoned while asleep; abducted[66] Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
March 12: Donna Gail Manson (19): Abducted while walking to concert at Evergreen State College. Body left (according to Bundy) at Taylor Mountain site, but never found[191]
April 17: Susan Elaine Rancourt (18): Disappeared after evening advisors’ meeting, Central Washington State College[67][68] Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
May 6: Roberta Kathleen Parks (22): Vanished from Oregon State University in Corvallis. Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
June 1: Brenda Carol Ball (22): Disappeared after leaving the Flame Tavern in Burien, Washington.[69] Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
June 11: Georgeann Hawkins (18): Disappeared from alley behind her sorority house, UW.[72] Skeletal remains recovered at Issaquah site[91]
July 14: Janice Ann Ott (23): Abducted from Lake Sammamish State Park in broad daylight.[83] Skeletal remains recovered at Issaquah site[90]
July 14: Denise Marie Naslund (19): Abducted four hours after Ott from the same park.[84] Skeletal remains recovered at Issaquah site[90]
October 2: Nancy Wilcox (16): Ambushed, assaulted, and strangled in Holladay, Utah.[98] Body never found
October 18: Melissa Anne Smith (17): Vanished from Midvale, Utah, after leaving a pizza parlor. Body found in nearby mountainous area[100]
October 31: Laura Aime (17): Disappeared from a Halloween party in Lehi, Utah. Body discovered by hikers in American Fork Canyon[102]
November 8: Carol DaRonch (18): Attempted abduction in Murray, Utah. Escaped from Bundy’s car and survived[104]
November 8: Debra Kent (17): Vanished after leaving a school play in Bountiful, Utah. Body left (according to Bundy) near Fairview, Utah; minimal skeletal remains (one patella) found, but never positively identified as Kent’s[247]

5 out of 14 are divisible by 5.
—————————————————-

Remember, 1 out of 5 random numbers will be divisible by 5. That is 20%. Given normal variance, we might expect to see 0% to 40% on any given set of numbers.

TED BUNDY: 5 out of 14 are divisible by 5, about what you would expect by pure chance. About 36%.

GREEN RIVER KILLER: 1 out of 11. About 9%.

ZODIAC KILLER: 9 out of 9. 100%

Now I agree, there are incredible and weird coincidences in life.

But when Scott Peterson says "Yes, I never went fishing before, but I decided to go fishing right after my wife vanished, and the fact that her body was found near where I was fishing is just coincidence."? I say, "No that is likely not a coincidence."

If this was 6 out of 9, or even 7 out of 9, it is not as compelling and probably just coincidence. But when we see 1 out of 11 for Green River Killer, 5 out of 14 for Bundy, but then 9 out of 9 for Zodiac, to me it becomes enough of a statistically improbable stand out that it merits further consideration as an intentional pattern.

We also have the FACT that Zodiac himself marked the 6, 8, 9, 10 and 11 spots on his symbol read as a clockface, and that these spots translate to the divisible by 5 numbers from the murder dates.

Anyone want to accept the challenge, or just take a look at this and see what you think?

Daniel Gillotti, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:02 pm

Ak:

I don’t know if you want this here. You can move it to where it may belong. I believe Zodiac wanted the Zodiac symbol rotated 90 degrees, here is what I came up with…input needed and welcome…sorry for my bad art work…lol…

Daniel…

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:58 am

I would challenge doranchak, thebigZ, traveller1st or other members of the "Skeptical Club" to take on this theory and shoot it down, expose the flaws, establish the probability and/or confirm it.

Heh heh… "skeptical club"

You KNOW I enjoy a good challenge. And stirring it up a bit often leads to some good conversation, so YOU’RE ON!

bentley, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:35 am

Well, I must say I’m a little offended to be merely an "other member" of the hallowed Skeptics Club, but I’ll swallow my pride and carry on..,

Staring the circle at 55 seems arbitrary, however convenient.

The Lass/Radetich tic at 9 o’clock doesn’t really fit since those crimes had not yet occurred.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:47 am

You say "skeptical club" as if that’s a negative thing. But that’s how science works. There is no science without good skepticism. A court of law that didn’t rely on skepticism would be an ineffective place to administer justice.

Theories are meant to be tested. The ones that get stronger are the ones that are falsifiable, and yet don’t get knocked down by facts and evidence.

So, here’s the first problem:

Ferrin/Mageau were shot on July 5, 1969, NOT July 4, 1969. So, 7+5+69 = 81, which is not divisible by five. Or do I have the date wrong?

That means that among the four confirmed Zodiac killings, three are dates with numbers the sum to a number divisible by five.

There is about a 1 in 5 chance that any randomly selected date will sum to a number divisible by five.

What are the chances that 3 out of 4 randomly selected dates have this property? Let’s say that you pick 4 dates. Represent each of the 4 dates with either a 0 or 1. "0" means the date is not divisible by 5. "1" means the date is divisible by 5. Thus, the ways that the dates can be selected to have at least 3 divisible by 5 are:

0111
1011
1101
1110
1111

There is an 80% chance of picking a "0", and 20% chance of picking a "1". Thus:

0111: 0.8 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 = 0.0064
1011: 0.2 * 0.8 * 0.2 * 0.2 = 0.0064
1101: 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.8 * 0.2 = 0.0064
1110: 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.8 = 0.0064
1111: 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 = 0.0016

Only one of those combinations needs to happen for you to have at least three dates divisible by five. Thus, the chance that one of these combinations occurs is:

0.0064 + 0.0064 + 0.0064 + 0.0064 + 0.0016 = 0.0272 = 2.72 %. That’s not nearly out of the realm of chance occurrence.

Things get murky when you include the dates of non-confirmed Zodiac killings, since we don’t know for sure if they are connected to the Zodiac killer. For instance, couldn’t you just as easily select a different set of dates that didn’t share the same divisible by 5 property?

bentley, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:08 pm

"Ferrin/Mageau were shot on July 5, 1969, NOT July 4, 1969. So, 7+5+69 = 81, which is not divisible by five. Or do I have the date wrong?"

That’s technically correct, however occurring so close to midnight I’m willing to concede that car traffic or what have you got in the way.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:17 pm

OK – So if we allow for that, then the probability of randomly selecting 4 dates that are divisible by 5 reduces to 0.16%, or a 1 in 625 chance.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:36 pm

I would challenge doranchak, thebigZ, traveller1st or other members of the "Skeptical Club" to take on this theory and shoot it down, expose the flaws, establish the probability and/or confirm it.

Heh heh… "skeptical club"

You KNOW I enjoy a good challenge. And stirring it up a bit often leads to some good conversation, so YOU’RE ON!

Excellent! Great to see you back here, we missed ya!

Now Bentley I do consider you a member in good standing of the "Skeptic Club" but when it comes to you and thebigZ and a few others, I think you also have one foot (OK sometimes maybe just one toe) in the "Adventurers Club". Or "Explorer’s Club". Or maybe I should just call it the KICK ASS HE MAN ZODIAC HATERS CLUB

Seriously though, what is going on here? Maybe one of you or all of us can find the flaw and shoot this down and come up with further ideas and evidence to support it.

Thanks to all who take a look at this with a critical, skeptical but open minded view.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:47 pm

You say "skeptical club" as if that’s a negative thing. But that’s how science works. There is no science without good skepticism. A court of law that didn’t rely on skepticism would be an ineffective place to administer justice.

Theories are meant to be tested. The ones that get stronger are the ones that are falsifiable, and yet don’t get knocked down by facts and evidence.

AK Wilks: No I meant that as a compliment!

A bit of a joke as a I sometimes think you are a little hesitant to embrace the full meaning of some of your findings. But absolutely as a compliment. I think that you doranchak, along with thebigZ, trav and bentley (and several others!) are some of the best minds on the Z case, and it is precisely because you guys do tend to be a little more skeptical than Kite or me that I value your research and work. That is why I asked you to take a look at it. You have often found mistakes and logic flaws I missed, and have a capability with computers and statistical analysis that is way better than mine!

So, here’s the first problem:

Ferrin/Mageau were shot on July 5, 1969, NOT July 4, 1969. So, 7+5+69 = 81, which is not divisible by five. Or do I have the date wrong?

That means that among the four confirmed Zodiac killings, three are dates with numbers the sum to a number divisible by five.

There is about a 1 in 5 chance that any randomly selected date will sum to a number divisible by five.

What are the chances that 3 out of 4 randomly selected dates have this property? Let’s say that you pick 4 dates. Represent each of the 4 dates with either a 0 or 1. "0" means the date is not divisible by 5. "1" means the date is divisible by 5. Thus, the ways that the dates can be selected to have at least 3 divisible by 5 are:

0111
1011
1101
1110
1111

There is an 80% chance of picking a "0", and 20% chance of picking a "1". Thus:

0111: 0.8 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 = 0.0064
1011: 0.2 * 0.8 * 0.2 * 0.2 = 0.0064
1101: 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.8 * 0.2 = 0.0064
1110: 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.8 = 0.0064
1111: 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 = 0.0016

Only one of those combinations needs to happen for you to have at least three dates divisible by five. Thus, the chance that one of these combinations occurs is:

0.0064 + 0.0064 + 0.0064 + 0.0064 + 0.0016 = 0.0272 = 2.72 %. That’s not nearly out of the realm of chance occurrence.

Things get murky when you include the dates of non-confirmed Zodiac killings, since we don’t know for sure if they are connected to the Zodiac killer. For instance, couldn’t you just as easily select a different set of dates that didn’t share the same divisible by 5 property?

AK Wilks: 1. Perhaps the shots were fired after midnight and thus technically on the 5th, but in the mind of the Zodiac he set out to kill on July 4, 1969, and as far as he is concerned he DID KILL on 7/4/69. That is the date he uses to take credit for the kill.

2. I wrote down what I thought were the most common 1970 crimes with the Zodiac a suspect, as seen by Graysmith, researchers, reporters or police.

Hakari
Johns
Radetich
Lass
Bennallack

After I wrote them down I looked at the dates and they were all divisible by 5. If there is another we should add to the list, I am open to it, but I honestly thought those five were the most mentioned.

Doranchak thanks for taking a look at this, even your early numbers are interesting.

Bentley: (On Zodiac claiming 7/4/69 as a murder date, as seen by the car door above, while the shots may have been fired after midnight thus creating a 7/5/69 date) "That’s technically correct, however occurring so close to midnight I’m willing to concede that car traffic or what have you got in the way.

DORANCHAK: "OK – So if we allow for that, then the probability of randomly selecting 4 dates that are divisible by 5 reduces to 0.16%, or a 1 in 625 chance."

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:01 pm

What about Bates and Domingos/Edwards? They are often brought up as possible victims.

Bates: 10+30+66 = 106. Divisible by 2, 53, and 106.
Domingos/Edwards: 6+4+63 = 73. Only divisible by 73.

bentley, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:08 pm

Oh, Oh! I know that one.

Since Z claims to have "started his collection of slaves" with LHR (see first couple of Z letters), perhaps the whole Z personal and numbers game also started there.

Maybe. I’m still a skeptic but it’s interesting study material.

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:11 pm

AK Wilks: 1. Perhaps the shots were fired after midnight and thus technically on the 5th, but in the mind of the Zodiac he set out to kill on July 4, 1969, and as far as he is concerned he DID KILL on 7/4/69. That is the date he uses to take credit for the kill.

Z also references the July 4th date in each of his three letters to the papers (7/31/69), so in HIS mind that’s when it took place. I’m with Dave in regards to the probability.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:46 pm

Here’s a demonstration of how easy it is to select dates with patterns.

The following 13 dates are all found in this list of dates associated with "end of the world" predictions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events):

02/13/25 (40)
08/20/67 (95)
01/11/73 (85)
01/16/73 (90)
01/21/73 (95)
03/10/82 (95)
04/29/87 (120)
10/28/92 (130)
12/17/96 (125)
10/23/97 (130)
08/18/99 (125)
05/05/00 (10)
04/29/07 (40)

They share the same theme (predictions of the end of the world), and all sum to numbers divisible by five. It doesn’t mean the dates were purposefully connected by some willful intent.

I’m not saying Zodiac didn’t choose dates that are divisible by five. I’m saying that stronger proof is needed to claim he did that on purpose.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:14 pm

Doranchak – and thebigZ:

1. If we accept the 5 debatable 1970 cases as real what are the odds on going 9 for 9 as being divisible by 5?

2. What is your take on Zodiac marking the 6, 8, 9, 10, and 11 spots on his symbol as a clockface and how they can match murder dates?

Thanks.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:24 pm

If we accept the 5 debatable 1970 cases as real what are the odds on going 9 for 9 as being divisible by 5?

If you accept that, and you assume that the Zodiac only performed 9 killings, then the answer is simple: 20% raised to the 9th power, or (0.2)^9 = 5.12 x 10^-7, or about a one in two million chance.

But what if he performed 50 killings, and we only know those 9 dates? Then, it is much more likely the divisibility by 5 is occurring by random chance, because there are many more opportunities for divisibility by 5 to occur.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:32 pm

Here’s what I’m talking about when I say that there can be more opportunities for "divisibility by 5" to occur by chance (thebigZ, please check my work for accuracy):
Let’s say the killer decided to kill only 9 people on random days.

Each day is a slot:

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

If a day is divisible by 5, write a 1 into its slot. Otherwise, write a zero.

Example:

1 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 <== 6 days are divisible by 5. 3 days are not divisible by 5.

What are the odds of all days being divisible by 5?

1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Answer: 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 = 5.12 x 10^-7 (about 1 in 2 million)

Seems very unlikely, right? But what if the killer decided to kill 10 people on random days. Let’s say we only know about 9 of them, and those 9 days happen to be divisible by 5. The slots could then look like this:

1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0

So, the odds of that happening are: 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.2 * 0.8 = 4.096 x 10^-7 (about 1 in 2.44 million)

But we have to count the other possible slot configurations:

1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 1
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 1 1
1 1 1 1 1 1 0 1 1 1
…
0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

There are 10 of those, each with equal probability.

One final possible slot configuration is:

1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

So we include its probability: 0.2 ^ 10 = 1.024 x 10^-7

Then, the probability that at least 9 dates among the 10 are divisible by 5 is the sum of those probabilities, which works out to: 4.1984 x 10^-6 (about 1 in 240,000).

But what if the killer decided to kill 11 people on random days? What are the odds that 9 of those days are divisible by 5?

It works out to .2 ^ 11 + (11 choose 10) * (0.2 ^ 10 * 0.8 ) + (11 choose 9) * (0.2 ^ 9 * 0.8 ^ 2) = 1.89 x 10^-5 (about 1 in 53,000)

You can see that as we increase the number of "killing events", finding 9 dates divisible by 5 becomes more and more likely to occur by chance.

I’ve derived a general formula that determines the exact odds, based on the "n", the number of killing events:

Sum( (n choose k) * (0.2^k * 0.8^(n-k)), k from 9 to n)

Here are the resulting probabilities:

Number of killing events	Chances that 9 days happen to be divisible by 5
9	1 in 1,953,120
10	1 in 238,186
11	1 in 52,787
12	1 in 16,077
13	1 in 6,024
14	1 in 2,618
15	1 in 1,274
16	1 in 678
17	1 in 387
18	1 in 235
19	1 in 150
20	1 in 100
21	1 in 69
22	1 in 50
23	1 in 37
24	1 in 28
25	1 in 21
26	1 in 17
27	1 in 14
28	1 in 11
29	1 in 9
30	1 in 8
31	1 in 7
32	1 in 6
33	1 in 5
34	1 in 4
35	1 in 4
36	1 in 4
37	1 in 3

I stopped at 37, since that was the highest number of victims Z claimed in his letters. Do you see how significantly the odds change based on how many killings were performed?

It shows how easy it is to make the patterns seem rare. "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Consider the "birthday paradox". You have 23 random people in a room. What are the odds that at least 2 of them share the same birthday (month and day)? Should be quite rare, right? Well, it turns out that there is a 50% chance of it happening! Doesn’t seem intuitive, but it’s true, because there are 253 possible pairs of people that can be made from 23 people, which are enough "trials" to increase the likelihood to 50% of a matching birthday.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:17 pm

Doranchak – Very interesting work. Thanks. I do see your point. Actually what is funny here is I am in the minority to think that Z perhaps did kill 17 or so people by 1974, maybe even near or at the 37 he claimed, and as such, I agree the number theory has less meaning the more murders we include. At least if we go beyond the 9.

But for those who think that Zodiac ONLY did the CONFIRMED cases, we are at your 1 in 625 by chance calculation, which to me means a very good chance it was intentional.

If Zodiac did the nine cases and ONLY the nine cases, then we are at your 1 in 2,000,000 which I read as almost certainly intentional. Slam dunk.

But if we think he did 37 or so it falls apart!

So for the moment I suggest we stick to the four confirmed cases.

My question to Doranchak, thebigZ, Bentley and all others is this:

1. Why does Zodiac mark 6, 8, 9, 10 and 11 on his symbol as a clockface?

2. Do you accept or reject that the 6, 8, 10 and 11 that Zodiac marks are a possible mathematical match to the four confirmed murders?

12/20/68 = 100 @ 10 spot. Because 100/5 = 20 and 20 – 10 = 10.

7/4/69 = 80 @ 6 spot. Because 80/5 = 16 and 16 – 10 = 6.

9/27/69 = 105 @ 11 spot. Because 105/5 = 21 and 21 – 10 = 11.

10/11/69 = 90 @ 8 spot. Because 90/5 = 18 and 18 – 10 = 8.

3. Is there a better, simpler or more logical way to express what I am trying to say mathematically above?

GRAPHIC BY AWESHUCKS MODIFIED TO SHOW ONLY FOUR CONFIRMED ZODIAC CASES

, Subject: number theory Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:20 pm

Dave,

As far as I can see, you’re correct… again. Very clear presentation, Doctor Dave.

AK, I’m a bit reluctant (as usual) to use statistics to "prove" anything in this case, simply from the standpoint that we have a small sample set – be it the number of confirmed murders, symbols/ciphers, etc. What Dave has demonstrated is that, given more confirmed victim dates, the easier it would be to determine if there is a pattern or intentional design. I’m still intrigued by what we have though, including the "possible" victim dates. And I honestly haven’t spent enough time on it to dismiss or support the theory. My gut feeling, however, is that this may be yet another exercise in interpretation rather than an understanding of the math (e.g, I think we agree on the numbers we got for TJK, but not necessarily their significance). As a rule, the smaller the sample set, the less significant the results.

I’ll admit that I believe the theory merits further investigation. I’ll give it some more thought.

-tbz

bentley, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:12 pm

I’m leaving the number crunching up to others, but has it been factored in on this ‘divisible by 5’ theory that Z only stuck on Friday or Saturday, presumably out of necessity, thereby eliminating 5 days out of the week for potential dates? Further up this thread is a 1969 calendar I marked with the potential divisible by 5 dates marked.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:58 pm

Good point bentley and I think on that calender you did it showed out of 104 possible Friday and Saturdays only 18 fit the theory. Which I think (?) further stretches the odds which are already at 1 in 625 random chance just on the four confirmed cases. Glad that BigZ is taking a longer look at this I too am studying the good work here by doranchak. The one thing I suggest is looking at what Zodiac himself did he marked those spots on his symbol with 4 matching to confirmed crime dates.

bentley, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:03 pm

Also consider that some of those 18 dates may equal the same number (90, 100, etc.), which would exclude them if your theory about the consecutive count is correct.

And yes, I left out the LHR date…

Jem, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:27 am

Yes, Zodiac was probably not a DIVISIBLE BY 5 killer. The thing that’s important, imo, is that he seems to have wanted to give that impression. Why would he want that? Who knows, but maybe it’s like Kite argues – the "9 o’clock" X on the diagram is supposed to indicate when he’ll next do his thing. Attempt to kill K. Johns was not successful, so he claims Officer Raeditch.

K. Johns was probably Z. Officer Raeditch was not, imo. So why claim Raeditch? Why insist that BRS was the 4th of July, when it definitely wasn’t? And why kill on Dec. 20, 1968, if he wanted to make it Christmas time (since that’s how he refers to it later)?

I’d guess he got a kick out of thinking that he would announce when he would next do his thing, and someone would figure it out, and he’d have fun seeing patrol cars all over the place on those days. Or maybe he thought someone would figure it out, but not until it was too late. And then he could have fun thinking of how much smarter than the cops he was. Something like that

Suppose someone had come up with this Div by 5 theory when Z sent in the diagram… And suppose the theory had somehow got out to the public… Can you imagine the panic this would have caused? I bet a whole lotta workers and students would have found that they were too sick to go to work/school on days divisible by 5! A lot of parents keeping their kids home on those days! A lot of would be shoppers deciding they really didn’t want a new pair of shoes so much! And definitely a lot of young lovers deciding that talking on the phone would be much more fun than going on a date…

……………

The thing with letting 1 o’clock = 55, though, I don’t understand. Just a convention quirkily conceived by Z or what?

Edit to say – sorry, I meant Kathleen Johns, not Donna Lass!

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:01 am

But for those who think that Zodiac ONLY did the CONFIRMED cases, we are at your 1 in 625 by chance calculation, which to me means a very good chance it was intentional.

Be very, very careful with this line of reasoning. It is too easy to fall into a trap of assuming that something is intentional just because the chances seem to be against it.

If you are looking at a field of a million blades of grass, and you throw a ball randomly without looking, it will land on some blade of grass. You could say that there was a one in a million chance for that specific blade of grass to be hit by the ball. But the only thing intentional about it was that you threw the ball, not that you pre-selected a specific blade of grass.

Another example: Look at the 408 cipher. The symbol "K" appears above the symbol "Q".

What are the odds of this happening by chance? Well, there are 5 K’s in the cipher, and 5 Q’s in the cipher. So the odds of a K happening are 5 in 408, and the odds of a Q happening are also 5 in 408. Thus, the odds that they both happen together are:

(5/408) * (5/408) = 0.00015, or about a 1 in 6659 chance.

Does this mean the killer intentionally planned for the K to appear above the Q? Of course not – it’s just an outcome of enciphering the message in a 17 x 24 grid.

ThebigZ is absolutely right: You can’t use these kinds of statistics alone, in a small sample set, to prove these sorts of things about the case. And it’s easy to pick out things that appear to be rare, as I demonstrated with the 408 cipher and the field of grass analogy.

I, too, am still intrigued by the divisible by 5 idea, however. It seems peculiar that the 4 confirmed dates share that trait.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:13 am

My question to Doranchak, thebigZ, Bentley and all others is this:

1. Why does Zodiac mark 6, 8, 9, 10 and 11 on his symbol as a clockface?

Wish I knew!

2. Do you accept or reject that the 6, 8, 10 and 11 that Zodiac marks are a possible mathematical match to the four confirmed murders?

I neither accept nor reject it. It is a mathematical trick that isn’t falsifiable without access to the killer’s mind. And unfalsifiable ideas can’t really be analyzed scientifically.

If you consider all 5 marks (6, 8, 9, 10 and 11), I’m sure some clever person could find at least 4 of them somewhere else among the Zodiac’s writings or case facts, and claim that an intentional trick of mathematics placed them there. How would you be able to tell which trick was the correct one?

, Subject: Tick Marks Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:08 am

One thing that throws a wrench into this theory for me is the tick mark at 9 o’clock. Z first claims 7 victims in the Dripping Pen card (11/8/69), where he states, "Des July Aug Sept Oct = 7". He then reiterates his claim in his letter to the Chronicle (11/9/69), where he states, "Up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 people." All of the 5 confirmed murders can be accounted for on the clock face: 6:00 (Ferrin), 8:00 (Stine), 10:00 (Jensen/Faraday), 11:00 (Shepard). The one we can’t account for is the 9:00 position. I don’t believe Z was predicting that this would be the "time" he would take his next victim; I would assume (if the number theory held true), that at least one of the two unconfirmed murders would have ALREADY accounted for the 9:00 position (and within the timeframe of Dec ’68 – Oct ’69).

So, if Z truly established a "system" starting with the Faraday/Jensen murders in "Des", then there are very few "murder dates" (that fall on a weekend) which would fill the 9:00 position on his clock:

Saturday, 1/25/69
Sunday, 3/23/69 (assuming Z was a "weekend warrior", so as not to confine his activities to only Fri or Sat)
Friday, 6/20/69
Saturday, 7/19/69

Note that none of those dates occur during the month of August, which has long been a question of who Z could have been referring to. According to the number system, the only possible weekend murder dates during August of ’69 would have been:
Sunday, 8/3/69 (6:00 position)
Friday, 8/8/69 (7:00 position)
Saturday, 8/23/69 (10:00 position)

If Z were hinting that his next victim would fill the 9:00 position, then how do we account for August?

Edit: The only date in August that fulfills the number theory requirement to obtain "9" is 8/18/69 – a Monday.

bentley, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:01 am

I made a mistake on this calendar AK. 6/6/69 should be 8/8/69. Doesn’t change the totals. The old eyes are fading, 6s and 8s look alike.

What I eluded to earlier. According to your theory, after LHR Z could no longer use a ‘100’ date, leaving fewer of the available div by 5 dates to choose from, and so on with less to pick from after each crime.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:12 pm

One thing that throws a wrench into this theory for me is the tick mark at 9 o’clock. Z first claims 7 victims in the Dripping Pen card (11/8/69), where he states, "Des July Aug Sept Oct = 7". He then reiterates his claim in his letter to the Chronicle (11/9/69), where he states, "Up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 people." All of the 5 confirmed murders can be accounted for on the clock face: 6:00 (Ferrin), 8:00 (Stine), 10:00 (Jensen/Faraday), 11:00 (Shepard). The one we can’t account for is the 9:00 position. I don’t believe Z was predicting that this would be the "time" he would take his next victim; I would assume (if the number theory held true), that at least one of the two unconfirmed murders would have ALREADY accounted for the 9:00 position (and within the timeframe of Dec ’68 – Oct ’69).

So, if Z truly established a "system" starting with the Faraday/Jensen murders in "Des", then there are very few "murder dates" (that fall on a weekend) which would fill the 9:00 position on his clock:

Saturday, 1/25/69
Sunday, 3/23/69 (assuming Z was a "weekend warrior", so as not to confine his activities to only Fri or Sat)
Friday, 6/20/69
Saturday, 7/19/69

Note that none of those dates occur during the month of August, which has long been a question of who Z could have been referring to. According to the number system, the only possible weekend murder dates during August of ’69 would have been:
Sunday, 8/3/69 (6:00 position)
Friday, 8/8/69 (7:00 position)
Saturday, 8/23/69 (10:00 position)

If Z were hinting that his next victim would fill the 9:00 position, then how do we account for August?

Edit: The only date in August that fulfills the number theory requirement to obtain "9" is 8/18/69 – a Monday.

Jem, Doranchak, Bentley – Good and interesting points, I am still working on this, more to come tonite.

BigZ – The question is does Z mark the 9:00 position as a boast for what he has already done, or is it a threat of what is to come?

After this November 1969 letter with the marked clockface, Zodiac would take credit for the Kathleen Johns incident on 3/22/70, a "95" or position 9 on the clock, and she lived, and many think Zodiac hinted at credit for Radetich, who was killed on 6/19/70, also a "95" or position 9 on the clock. We are "missing" a mark on the 7, and the Donna Lass missing persons/murder case was on 9/6/70, an "85" or 7 on the clock.

The whole "Des July Aug Sept Oct = 7" has always been confusing and one wonders if this is a Zodiac trick, misdirection or mind!@#$.

Kite has a theory that the cryptic "Des July Aug Sept Oct = 7" actually could mean a letters for number count, as he proposes on the Pines Card:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … tic-theory

And these letters "Des July Aug Sept Oct" add up to 223, and 2 + 2 + 3 = 7. But that is a little too extended for my taste, though still worthy of consideration IMO.

If Zodiac is claiming, real or false, to have killed two people in August, many have looked to the Snoozy and Furlong murder. That happened on 8/3/69, so it is an "80" or 6 on the clock, right? A mentally ill person named Karl Warner killed Kathy Bilek in April of 1971 and then confessed to those 8/3/89 Snoozy and Furlong murders, and the facts seem to indicate he did it, but there is not a smoking gun fullproof conviction in regards to Snoozy and Furlong. I don’t think Z killed those 2 girls, but did he want us to speculate he did? I don’t know.

I am open to alternate ideas but the Z himself making those marks is IMO a very interesting bit of evidence, seeing as how they do tie in to the 4 confirmed cases and the "next two most mentioned possibles" with Johns and Radetich.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:29 pm

Looking at what I call the Bentley Weekend Limitation Factor (BWLF), which I think is largely sound from both a criminal MO and math point of view, it changes the probability more than I thought.

Sticking to just the four confirmed cases, Doranchak stated and BigZ verified that the odds are 1 in 625 that four dates would be divisible by five. But that is based on 1 out of 5 dates being divisible by five, or 20%. Right?

But if we accept the BWLF we have 104 possible Fridays and Saturdays out of which only 18 are divisible by five. So I get that as about 17%. Which is about 1 in 6. Right? If so you would think there is little difference between a 1 in 5 chance or a 1 in 6 chance, at least I did, but you would be wrong.

Using a 1 in 6 chance with the BWLF, sticking to just the four confirmed cases, I come up with a 1 in 1296 chance that all four would be divisible by five.

Jem, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:28 am

AK wrote:

After this November 1969 letter with the marked clockface, Zodiac would take credit for the Kathleen Johns incident on 3/22/70, a "95" or position 9 on the clock, and she lived, and many think Zodiac hinted at credit for Radetich, who was killed on 6/19/70, also a "95" or position 9 on the clock.

Yeah, it was Kathleen Johns that didn’t work out, not Donna Lass. Got the names mixed up, sorry!

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:50 am

But if we accept the BWLF we have 104 possible Fridays and Saturdays out of which only 18 are divisible by five. So I get that as about 17%. Which is about 1 in 6. Right? If so you would think there is little difference between a 1 in 5 chance or a 1 in 6 chance, at least I did, but you would be wrong.

Using a 1 in 6 chance with the BWLF, sticking to just the four confirmed cases, I come up with a 1 in 1296 chance that all four would be divisible by five.

This is the "small sample set" problem ThebigZ was talking about. In 1969 there are 18 out of 104 (17%) Fridays or Saturdays that are divisible by 5. But from 1968 through 1981 there are 290 out of 1460 (20%) Fridays or Saturdays that are divisible by 5.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:53 am

Ok here’s my promised why question.

Why 5?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:51 pm

But if we accept the BWLF we have 104 possible Fridays and Saturdays out of which only 18 are divisible by five. So I get that as about 17%. Which is about 1 in 6. Right? If so you would think there is little difference between a 1 in 5 chance or a 1 in 6 chance, at least I did, but you would be wrong.

Using a 1 in 6 chance with the BWLF, sticking to just the four confirmed cases, I come up with a 1 in 1296 chance that all four would be divisible by five.

This is the "small sample set" problem ThebigZ was talking about. In 1969 there are 18 out of 104 (17%) Fridays or Saturdays that are divisible by 5. But from 1968 through 1981 there are 290 out of 1460 (20%) Fridays or Saturdays that are divisible by 5.

Fair point. But if we look at only the confirmed cases, it IS the time frame of 12/68 to 12/69 we are looking at.

In any event I (and others too) think even if we stay with a 20% rate that gives us the 1 in 625 random chance, that is significant enough to merit further study. If we also accept the BWLF as valid for the 12/68 to 12/69 time period of the confirmed cases, we get the number of 1 in 1296.

If there is one thing I stress to Doranchak and others, and BigZ is already looking at this aspect, it is the act of Zodiac himself in making a symbol and marking 6, 8, 9, 10 and 11, and the fact that those numbers picked by Zodiac DO RELATE to the confirmed cases + Johns.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:29 pm

One thing that throws a wrench into this theory for me is the tick mark at 9 o’clock. Z first claims 7 victims in the Dripping Pen card (11/8/69), where he states, "Des July Aug Sept Oct = 7". He then reiterates his claim in his letter to the Chronicle (11/9/69), where he states, "Up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 people." All of the 5 confirmed murders can be accounted for on the clock face: 6:00 (Ferrin), 8:00 (Stine), 10:00 (Jensen/Faraday), 11:00 (Shepard). The one we can’t account for is the 9:00 position. I don’t believe Z was predicting that this would be the "time" he would take his next victim; I would assume (if the number theory held true), that at least one of the two unconfirmed murders would have ALREADY accounted for the 9:00 position (and within the timeframe of Dec ’68 – Oct ’69).

So, if Z truly established a "system" starting with the Faraday/Jensen murders in "Des", then there are very few "murder dates" (that fall on a weekend) which would fill the 9:00 position on his clock:

Saturday, 1/25/69
Sunday, 3/23/69 (assuming Z was a "weekend warrior", so as not to confine his activities to only Fri or Sat)
Friday, 6/20/69
Saturday, 7/19/69

Note that none of those dates occur during the month of August, which has long been a question of who Z could have been referring to. According to the number system, the only possible weekend murder dates during August of ’69 would have been:
Sunday, 8/3/69 (6:00 position)
Friday, 8/8/69 (7:00 position)
Saturday, 8/23/69 (10:00 position)

If Z were hinting that his next victim would fill the 9:00 position, then how do we account for August?

Edit: The only date in August that fulfills the number theory requirement to obtain "9" is 8/18/69 – a Monday.

Aside from the Snoozy – Furlong murders which took place on 8/3/69, and for which Karl Werner confessed, the poster RICHARD also noted (in a different context from this number theory debate) a body that was FOUND on 8/3/69, and while it was thought the murder may have happened a few days earlier, who knows for sure, and the 8/3/69 date was when the body was found.

RICHARD:

This unsolved murder has been mentioned in other places in the Zodiac website, but I thought that I would post it here due to the similarity with other stabbing murders being discussed on this thread.

Note that "Lompoc Jane Doe" was found on exactly the same day that the bodies of Furlong and Snoozy were discovered. While they were actually killed on 3 August 1969, it is estimated that Lompoc Jane Doe was killed a few days earlier.

Is it possible that Lompoc Jane Doe’s murder was related to some of these other murders?

——————————————–
Unidentified White Female
Located on August 3, 1969 near a quarry on Highway 1,
south of Lompoc, Santa Barbara County, California.

The victim died from multiple stab wounds and a slit throat.

Estimated date of death: July 29, 1969

Vital Statistics

Estimated age: 16 – 25 years old

Approximate Height and Weight: 5’2-5’4"; 120-130 lbs.

Distinguishing Characteristics: Shoulder-length brown hair dyed a reddish blonde; blue eyes.
She had pierced ears. She wore silver nailpolish.

Dentals: Available. She had current dental work and "buck teeth".
19 fillings done within the year or two preceding her death.
Based on her dental work, investigators surmised that she may have come from abroad.

Clothing: She was wearing brown sandals with a gold colored buckle, a dark blue blouse and what appeared to be homemade white pants decorated with a blue floral print (daisies with red center), they were hip hugger bell bottons. The clothing appeared consistent with that worn by youth during this time period. A black bra and pink bikini panties. She wore thin, horseshoe shaped, gold earrings.

Fingerprints: Available. (Poor quality)

Photos at link: Pants Daisy Pattern and Victim’s Bucked Teeth

Case History

The victim lay a few feet down an embankment, her body dragged there across dust and scrub brush and dumped behind a cluster of rocks within sight of old Highway 1.

Investigators believe she was killed there.

She was stabbed numerous times.

Source:

The Doe Network: Case File 205UFCA

LINK:

http://doenetwork.org/cases/205ufca.html

bentley, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:42 pm

Ok here’s my promised why question.

Why 5?

Ah, the simplest questions are always the hardest to answer…

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:50 pm

Ok here’s my promised why question.

Why 5?

Ah, the simplest questions are always the hardest to answer…

Right now I am just trying to establish IF there WAS a PATTERN of Zodiac killing on dates divisible by 5 that match to spots he marked on the clockface. If I determine that he did then I would worry more about "why 5?" Unless Zodiac is caught and gives an explanation we will likely never know "why".

But given the limitation of the years 68, 69, 70 creating numbers in a certain range, combined with the 1 to 12 of a clockface, the 5 pattern starts to make sense perhaps.

In other words if we look at the 12 signs of the Zodiac, the 12 numbers on a clock face, and also think of the 60 minutes on a clockface, with the numbers of 12 and 60, well 12 x 5 = 60.

, Subject: A Simpler Explanation? Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:05 pm

We’ll probably never know Z’s true intention, but there may be a simpler explanation…

Info on the image can be found HERE.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:18 pm

Are you saying if we flip the 6 to a 12 that is Descember and the 8 9 10 11 are July Aug Sept Oct? Interestin!

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:38 pm

Are you saying if we flip the 6 to a 12 that is Descember and the 8 9 10 11 are July Aug Sept Oct? Interestin!

If the earth is viewed from the top (north), it revolves around the sun counterclockwise. There are images that detail the orbital cycle beginning with January in the 6:00 position, similar to the one I posted. So since Z specified the "end of Oct", maybe each "X" is just indicating the end of each month in which he committed a murder – per an "orbital calendar" or zodiac. Just a guess really.

Edit: 7, 8, 9, and 10 are July, Aug, Sept, Oct… but I know that’s what you meant.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:48 pm

No I did mean 8 9 10 11 because those were what Z marked on the clockface. But I have to study what you are saying it looks very interesting you may be onto something.

Daniel Gillotti, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:56 pm

Big Z:

I like this idea, nice job…I will look at this closer too…

Daniel

, Subject: I C said the blind man Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:23 pm

No I did mean 8 9 10 11 because those were what Z marked on the clockface. But I have to study what you are saying it looks very interesting you may be onto something.

Ah… I understand what you’re saying now. This isn’t just switching 12 and 6 though… it starts at the bottom and moves CCW, so the 7, 8, 9, 10, 12 are still the positions that would be marked (as per the Roman numerals on the inside of the wheel).

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:25 pm

Gotcha. But remember Z marked 6 8 9 10 11.

, Subject: clockface Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:57 pm

Gotcha. But remember Z marked 6 8 9 10 11.

On the normal clockface, yes. Not on a "zodiac clockface" though (like the one I posted)… then it would coincide with 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, which would agree with the months he stated.

, Subject: more understandable? Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:07 pm

Maybe this will clear it up a little. The numbers coincide with the end of each month along the earth’s CCW orbit around the sun.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:40 pm

Nice thinking.

If we take this as a method, approach or pattern of the killer, and considering that in this context the murders serve a purpose, what is the ultimate goal? 12 victims? 12 victims a year? continuous groups of 12 victims? Funnily enough his first threat contained 12 victims as the goal.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:48 pm

Trav that is exactly the right question to ask also on the Pines Card he said sought victim 12. BigZ good work can you tell us if your upside down Zodiac wheel is associated with a particular country or philosophy?

, Subject: number theory Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:52 pm

Trav that is exactly the right question to ask also on the Pines Card he said sought victim 12. BigZ good work can you tell us if your upside down Zodiac wheel is associated with a particular country or philosophy?

I scanned the site that I "borrowed" the image from only briefly… I think it’s of Egyptian origin. I included the link to the site on my original post with that image (a page or two ago, I think).

Edit: Here’s the LINK

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:26 pm

Trav that is exactly the right question to ask also on the Pines Card he said sought victim 12. BigZ good work can you tell us if your upside down Zodiac wheel is associated with a particular country or philosophy?

I scanned the site that I "borrowed" the image from only briefly… I think it’s of Egyptian origin. I included the link to the site on my original post with that image (a page or two ago, I think).

Edit: Here’s the LINK

Ah, The HIEROGLYPHIC PLAN, By HERMES, OF THE ANCIENT ZODIAC.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:53 pm

I think the upside down Zodiac wheel found by thebigZ is very interesting, but IMO it is a rarely used device that does not otherwise seem to have a connection to the case. In other words, why would Zodiac use this particular Zodiac wheel? We don’t know, but there is nothing to link it to the case that I have found.

In contrast, all four confirmed Zodiac murders fit the number theory, as do all five possible 1970 cases.

The four confirmed cases would randomly happen that way only 1 in 625 times. If we think all five possible 1970 cases were either done by Zodiac or he claimed/hinted at credot for them, we are in the 1 in 2,000,000 range for random.

I think there is something here. I think Zodiac, for whatever reason, selected murder dates that were divisible by 5 and fit into his symbol, AS HE HIMSELF MARKED THE SYMBOL IN THIS WAY GIVING US A CLUE.

Now it appears that there MAY be a link between this Zodiac Number Theory and the 1982 Chicago Tylenol Murders.

Still reading the 600 page book by Scott Bartz "The Tylenol Mafia".

These are the 1982 Cyanide in Tylenol Murders:

7/26/82 Jay Mitchell Sheridan, Wyoming

8/15/82 Mary Louise Watkins Chicago, IL

9/14/82 Mark Husted Father was Village Attorney for Carpentersville, IL

9/29/82 Seven Victims Suburban Chicago

12/1/82 Galen Pariott Skokie, IL

——————–

Looking at these dates, what do they have in common?

7/26/82

8/15/82

9/14/82

9/29/82

12/1/82

——————–

7/26/82 = 115

8/15/82 = 105

9/14/82 = 105

9/29/82 = 120

12/1/82 = 95

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:19 pm

TRAVELLER1ST – Go to page one of this thread and read on to see what I think may be the possible meaning of the numbers Zodiac wrote on his symbol.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:31 pm

TRAVELLER1ST – Go to page one of this thread and read on to see what I think may be the possible meaning of the numbers Zodiac wrote on his symbol.

I tried but my eyes got sore. Is there nothing significant about the numbers on the cross because they add up to 44 whereas your theory has increments of 5? Please don’t attribute anything intelligent to my thoughts AK, I just cast around hoping others might see something. I still need complicated stuff ‘splained to me. I’m an artist not a thinker (I know lazy excuse, maybe one day I’ll be a real thinker lol).

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:43 pm

Read page four of this thread. When you add up the murder dates then divide by 5 then subtract 10 you get the numbers Zodiac put on the symbol.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:00 pm

Ah ok. Seriously though Ak it would take me to have counselling to get my head around this stuff. I’d rather leave it to you guys who can think like that – hence teamwork. I get to examine every curve on letters, everyone else can do the thinking lol.

I will however try to take time to understand it all. Not least because some of it may pertain to teachers. Also because it is quite interesting. And QI (Quite interesting) is one of my fave programmes. Hosted by Stephen Fry if you haven’t seen it, worth you-tubing.

I can’t fully comment on anything until I understand it, or at least try to. Hopefully we all have the answer and one day it will all come together from all ideas, and yes I do think it will take that.

Pffft now I have to get good at maths. Stop trying to improve me you lovely people lol.

EDIT: wait I think I just got something – all divided by 5 in keeping with the formula to get the No’s on the crosshair. And relax.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:12 pm

There’s one major problem though. For me at least.

Odds don’t impress me when it comes to serial killers or anything but that doesn’t mean I’m a nay-sayer, it’s just too loose a playing field. Until I know better.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:03 pm

I can’t remember if I wrote about this before. But this one still interests me. The low probability of the dates fitting the "divisible by 5" scheme is compelling. But I think we need to answer a broader question:

In a set of dates, what are the odds of finding any interesting pattern?

Adding the date values and seeing the if the sum is divisible by five is only one such pattern. But what about other patterns formed by all the different possibilities? For instance, divisibility by other factors. Or all possible numerological procedures.

Consider the birthday paradox. The birthday paradox question is: In a room with only 23 people in it, what are the odds that two people in the room have the same birthday? Intuitively, it seems like the chances would be very low. But actually there’s about a fifty-fifty chance. Why? Because you are looking for any two people that share the same birthday, and the birthday can happen any time of the year. And there are 253 possible pairings of the 23 people in the room. The details of the full calculation can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem#Calculating_the_probability

So, back to this "divisible by 5" problem. We’ve already calculated the odds of all the dates having the divisible by 5 property. This is like calculating the odds that two people have July 4 as their birth date. But we need to examine the more general question: What are the odds of the dates having ANY interesting pattern? This is like calculating the odds that two people have the same birth date, where the date can be selected from any day of the year.

I think it would be interesting to try to come up with this calculation. Anyone want to give it a try?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:39 pm

Go for it Dave! So if we look at the four 1969 cases all matching we would randomly pick four dates and see how many times out of 100 they fit ANY pattern? If we add the five 1970 possibles then we try nine random dates.

My guess is for four random to match any pattern will moderately interesting, while to go nine for nine will be off the charts rare and thus impressive.

The other very very important factor IMO is this.

Zodiac himself rights writes the numbers 6 8 9 10 11 on his symbol.

Why does he do that???

It fits nothing else in the case. But it does fit this number theory for the four confirmed cases and a case to come Johns. And the missing 7 will match another case to come Lass.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:36 pm

Part of the November 9, 1969 "Bus Bomb" Letter to the SF Chronicle.

WHY DOES ZODIAC MARK ON HIS SYMBOL AS A CLOCKFACE THE 6, 8, 9, 10 AND 11 SPOTS?

Reading the Zodiac symbol as a clock face, I do see the marked spots as: 6, 8, 9, 10, 11.

In other words, Zodiac seems to mark the spots 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. And when you:

1. Add up the murder dates numbers

2. Divide by 5

3. Drop the first digit, i.e., subtract 10.

4. You get 6, 8, 9, 10, 11.

Meaningful? Or mumbo jumbo coincidence?

Viewing the Zodiac symbol as a clockface, Zodiac himself has marked 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. Missing is a 7.

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100 Divided by 5 = 20 -10 = 10

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90 Divided by 5 = 18 – 10 =8

Kathleen Johns (3/22/70) = 95 Divided by 5 = 19 – 10 = 9

Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85 Divided by 5 = 17 – 10 = 7

——————-

My focus would be mostly on the six cases above, the four confirmed plus one Zodiac took credit for (Johns) and one he strongly hinted at credit for (Lass).

The other three 1970 cases most often mentioned as possible Zodiac crimes also fit this number theory pattern, and two of them Zodiac arguably hinted at credit for (Officer Radetch "Shot a man in a parked car"; Bennallack the 14th victim card was mailed after her murder but before it made the newspapers; Hakari no hint that I know of but he did up the victim count after her death).

Judith Hakari (3/7/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 80 Divided by 5 = 16 – 10 = 6

Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95 Divided by 5 = 19 – 10 = 9

Nancy Bennallack (10/25/70) = 10 + 25 + 70 = 105 Divided by 5 = 21 – 10 = 11

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:56 am

Actually 7 and 12 are missing. Dunno what that means other than 12-7=5.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:26 pm

Doranchak both you and thebigZ did look at the probabilities on this, and we debated what they may mean, but we are all in agreement on the actual probabilities. Which were 1 out of 625 for four murders.

I think you have the right idea though, in asking the question, what are the odds that ANY pattern – divisible by five or three or four or some other thing, appear in four random dates converted to numbers and in nine random dates converted to numbers.

I did look at the murder dates of other serial killers and saw no pattern of divisible by five, and no readily apparent other pattern, but I did not look intensely for other possible patterns.

——–

Given that it seems that all four confirmed Zodiac crimes fit the number theory, and all five possible 1970 Zodiac also fit the number theory, for 9 out of 9 total, I thought I would look at some dates in other serial murder cases to see if this was a common thing, and thus we are making something out of nothing, or if it is indeed rare.

I thought I would look at the first 9 or so dates in each case. Remember, Zodiac case is 9 for 9 on dates ending in a 0 or 5, i.e., they are divisible by 5.

Since 2 out of every 10 random dates will fit, or 20%, we might expect maybe about 0 to 40% in any given case, just by chance. Sound about right?

GREEN RIVER KILLER:

1 Wendy Lee Coffield 16 July 8, 1982
2 Gisele Ann Lovvorn 17 July 17, 1982
3 Debra Lynn Bonner 23 July 25, 1982
4 Marcia Fay Chapman 31 August 1, 1982
5 Cynthia Jean Hinds 17 August 11, 1982
6 Opal Charmaine Mills 16 August 12, 1982
7 Terry Rene Milligan 16 August 29, 1982
8 Mary Bridget Meehan 18 September 15, 1982
9 Debra Lorraine Estes 15 September 20, 1982
10 Linda Jane Rule 16 September 26, 1982
11 Denise Darcel Bush 23 October 8, 1982

Of the first 11 murders, only the last one fits. So, 1 out of 11.

TED BUNDY

1974

January 4: Joni Lenz (pseudonym) (age 18): Bludgeoned and sexually assaulted in her bed as she slept[63] Survived[64][65]
February 1: Lynda Ann Healy (21): Bludgeoned while asleep; abducted[66] Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
March 12: Donna Gail Manson (19): Abducted while walking to concert at Evergreen State College. Body left (according to Bundy) at Taylor Mountain site, but never found[191]
April 17: Susan Elaine Rancourt (18): Disappeared after evening advisors’ meeting, Central Washington State College[67][68] Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
May 6: Roberta Kathleen Parks (22): Vanished from Oregon State University in Corvallis. Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
June 1: Brenda Carol Ball (22): Disappeared after leaving the Flame Tavern in Burien, Washington.[69] Skull and mandible recovered at Taylor Mountain site[92]
June 11: Georgeann Hawkins (18): Disappeared from alley behind her sorority house, UW.[72] Skeletal remains recovered at Issaquah site[91]
July 14: Janice Ann Ott (23): Abducted from Lake Sammamish State Park in broad daylight.[83] Skeletal remains recovered at Issaquah site[90]
July 14: Denise Marie Naslund (19): Abducted four hours after Ott from the same park.[84] Skeletal remains recovered at Issaquah site[90]
October 2: Nancy Wilcox (16): Ambushed, assaulted, and strangled in Holladay, Utah.[98] Body never found
October 18: Melissa Anne Smith (17): Vanished from Midvale, Utah, after leaving a pizza parlor. Body found in nearby mountainous area[100]
October 31: Laura Aime (17): Disappeared from a Halloween party in Lehi, Utah. Body discovered by hikers in American Fork Canyon[102]
November 8: Carol DaRonch (18): Attempted abduction in Murray, Utah. Escaped from Bundy’s car and survived[104]
November 8: Debra Kent (17): Vanished after leaving a school play in Bountiful, Utah. Body left (according to Bundy) near Fairview, Utah; minimal skeletal remains (one patella) found, but never positively identified as Kent’s[247]

5 out of 14 are divisible by 5.
—————————————————-

Remember, 1 out of 5 random numbers will be divisible by 5. That is 20%. Given normal variance, we might expect to see 0% to 40% on any given set of numbers.

TED BUNDY: 5 out of 14 are divisible by 5, about what you would expect by pure chance. About 36%.

GREEN RIVER KILLER: 1 out of 11. About 9%.

ZODIAC KILLER: 9 out of 9. 100%

Now I agree, there are incredible and weird coincidences in life.

But when Scott Peterson says "Yes, I never went fishing before, but I decided to go fishing right after my wife vanished, and the fact that her body was found near where I was fishing is just coincidence."? I say, "No that is likely not a coincidence."

If this was 6 out of 9, or even 7 out of 9, it is not as compelling and probably just coincidence. But when we see 1 out of 11 for Green River Killer, 5 out of 14 for Bundy, but then 9 out of 9 for Zodiac, to me it becomes enough of a statistically improbable stand out that it merits further consideration as an intentional pattern.

We also have the very critical FACT that Zodiac himself marked the 6, 8, 9, 10 and 11 spots on his symbol read as a clockface, and that these spots translate to the divisible by 5 numbers from the murder dates.

So I think all this is very interesting, but I am not sure what else can be done, except doranchak’s suggestion is a good one.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:29 am

I was also intrigued by a similar question arising from the observation Gareth Penn made about the number "pi" long ago:

Take pi as 3.1415926, and write it as 3 1 4 15 9 26. Use the letters-for-numbers scheme A=1, B=2, … Z=26:

3=C
1=A
4=D
15=O
9=I
26=Z

Those letters re-arrange to "ZODIAC".

But does it matter? Is it just a fluke? What other words can be found with the same numbers? The possibilities go up when you consider variations of the scheme. For example, here are the different ways to write pi by splitting up the numbers:

3 1 4 1 5 9 2 6 CADAEIBF
3 1 4 1 5 9 26 CADAEIZ
3 1 4 15 9 2 6 CADOIBF
3 1 4 15 9 26 CADOIZ
3 14 1 5 9 2 6 CNAEIBF
3 14 1 5 9 26 CNAEIZ
3 14 15 9 26 CNOIZ

Perhaps other words can be formed by those possibilities. And you could also consider the digits of pi beyond the 6, forming even more letter possibilities. In the end, it’s just a meaningless but interesting parlor trick. But it made me also think: How many numbers, when strung together, could form the word ZODIAC from a similar letters-to-numbers interpretation? It’d be an easy experiment to run.

But this is why I don’t like seeing numerology applied to the Zodiac case. There are too many ways to generate meaningless patterns. But is the pattern we’re seeing with the Zodiac murder dates meaningless? I don’t know yet. We need more analysis.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:36 pm

Doranchak said:

"But this is why I don’t like seeing numerology applied to the Zodiac case. There are too many ways to generate meaningless patterns. But is the pattern we’re seeing with the Zodiac murder dates meaningless? I don’t know yet. We need more analysis."

AK = For the most part, I agree. I have lost much of my interest in extreme anagrams, number theories and cryptic clues for the reasons you state above. YET…we are dealing with Zodiac, a mind seemingly obsessed with codes, clues, teases, radians, geography, symbols, numbers and time.

So if a theory holds up, defies odds, is consistent, logical, works without exception AND is based in something Zodiac himself gave us, I still have interest in exploring if it is correct or not.

, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:44 pm

I’ve also found this pretty compelling, though I’ve never actually sat down to figure out the odds involved. Lemme dig up my slide rule and abacus…

Come on, Dave… let’s see what we can come up with.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:20 pm

Great would love to have you and Dave take a deeper look at this. The odds seem pretty easy to calculate the four confirmeds are 1 in 625 add Johns it is 1 in 3125 add Lass 1 in 18,750. Right? Pretty impressive IMO but Doranchak makes a good point. Which is what are the odds that 4 or 6 or 9 random dates converted to numbers will have ANY type of patter?

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:52 pm

I’ve also found this pretty compelling, though I’ve never actually sat down to figure out the odds involved. Lemme dig up my slide rule and abacus…

Come on, Dave… let’s see what we can come up with.

Let’s consider the simpler matter of adding the numbers in the dates, then determining if the result is divisible by some number. We’ll limit this to four dates for now for simplicity.

Now we must decide which numbers are significant. If all four dates result in numbers divisible by two, is that significant? What about three? Four? Etc.

Let’s start with two for now. The odds of four dates producing numbers that are divisible by two is 1/(2*2*2*2) = 1/16.

The odds of four dates producing numbers that is divisible by three is 1/(3*3*3*3) = 1/81.

Four dates divisible by four: 1/256.

Four dates divisible by five: 1/625.

And so on. So, what are the odds of four dates all being divisible by SOME number? For example, if you picked four dates completely at random, what are the odds that they will produce numbers that are all divisible by some specific number, not necessarily the number 5?

The answer: 1/16 + 1/81 + 1/256 + 1/625 + … etc …

This can be expressed with a simple formula: sum( (1/n)^4, n from 2 to 100). Wolfram alpha gives us the final answer: 8.2%. (I stopped at 100 because it felt like a good stopping point. Going further than 100 doesn’t change the odds by much.)

So, if you pick any four dates, there’s an 8.2% chance that they produce numbers that are all divisible by the same number.

Now, that’s the result when we consider only ONE numerological method: adding the pieces of the dates, then inspecting the sum for divisibility. But what if we include other methods, such as further manipulating the sum by adding ITS digits? For example, today is 9/13/12. 9+13+12 = 34. But we can say 3+4=7. Or what if multiplied the numbers instead? Or added the first two and subtracted the third? Etc. So, each of these possibilities is a variation of the original method, and produces a different set of numbers to inspect for divisibility.

If we assume that a second numerological method exists, that can produce a different sequence of numbers from our original method, then it, too, has a 8.2% chance of finding a pattern in the same four dates. Thus, unless I’m mistaken, the chances of finding a pattern by applying our first OR second method increases to 16.4%.

With enough unique methods of producing numerical sequences, the odds seem to go up quite significantly of finding arbitrary patterns.

Let’s increase this from 4 to 6 dates. Here are the re-calculated results:

If you pick any six dates, there’s a 1.7% chance of finding a pattern using one numerological method, and a 3.4% chance when using two.

If you pick any nine dates, there’s a 0.2% chance of finding a pattern using one numerological method, and a 0.4% chance when using two.

TheBigZ (and everyone else): lemme know if I made any mistakes in my analysis.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:02 am

Thanks very interesting! I am going to look through this in detail tomorrow but I have one question or objection first. Since every number must be odd or even I dont think it is fair to include divisible by 2 as a potential number patter it is just too common and too likely to happen by chance. Could you run one analysis without it? Otherwise looks solid in conception and execution thanks again I will have more to say after studying this work.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:25 am

That’s a fair objection. Re-calculating:

The odds of 4 dates forming numbers divisible by another number between 3 and 100: 2.0%
The odds of 6 dates forming numbers divisible by another number between 3 and 100: 0.17%
The odds of 9 dates forming numbers divisible by another number between 3 and 100: 0.0055%

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:41 am

Thank you doranchak. TheBigZ do you agree with the numbers? Anyone have objecions or questions? I find them very interesting. Total hypothetical but if a serial killer had four victims and all were redheards and it was shown there was a 2% chance that would occur randomly would we say as a working hypothesis we should consider he selected redheads? If we consider Johns and Lass Zodiac victims does that tip the scale towards this number theory being likely correct? In other words if we agree the numbers are right do we disagree on what they mean. I suspect we do. What do you think the numbers may mean doranchak? Others?

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:55 am

I wrote a quick program to run some experiments. The program generates a list of random dates, then looks for patterns among the dates.

Each experiment generates 10,000 sets of 4, 6, and 9 dates, randomly selected from the years 1968, 1969, and 1970.

In the first experiment, the program checks if the dates form sums that are divisible by some number greater than 2. For example, the date 12/23/69 forms this sum: 12+23+69=104. 104 is divisible by 4. Here are the results:

http://zodiackillerciphers.com/numerology/dates-4-systems-1.txt (1.9% form patterns)
http://zodiackillerciphers.com/numerology/dates-6-systems-1.txt (0.19% form patterns)
http://zodiackillerciphers.com/numerology/dates-9-systems-1.txt (0.02% form patterns)

The predicted results were 2.0%, 0.17%, and 0.0055%. So the experiment wasn’t too far off. I think the small difference is accounted for by the fact that sums divisible by 5 within the selected date range, for example, aren’t precisely 1 in 5, but close to it. Needs verification though.

Anyway, the first experiment only cared about two-digit years. What if we looked at two-digit AND four-digit years? For example, the date 2/7/68 forms the sum 2+7+1968=1977, which is divisible by 3. The results show, as expected, that more patterns are easily found:

http://zodiackillerciphers.com/numerology/dates-4-systems-2.txt (3.65% form patterns)
http://zodiackillerciphers.com/numerology/dates-6-systems-2.txt (0.44% form patterns)
http://zodiackillerciphers.com/numerology/dates-9-systems-2.txt ((0.03% form patterns)

OK. So this is starting to reinforce the idea that if you go looking for patterns using numerology, you’re likely to find them. In the next experiment, I included all the following variations of patterns:

* Adding the date parts together and looking for common factors in the sums
* Multiplying the date parts together and looking for common factors in the sums
* Allowing the day of the month, or the month, to be subtracted instead of added.
* Allowing the year to be two digits or four digits
* When looking at the sum or product, continue to add its digits until a one-digit value remains. For example: 12/21/68 becomes: 1968*12*21=495936 [4+9+5+9+3+6=36] [3+6=9]
* Seeing if all the dates fall on a U.S. holiday
* Seeing if all the dates fall on the same day of the week
* Seeing if all the dates fall on the weekend
* Seeing if all the dates are on the same day of the month

Results:

http://zodiackillerciphers.com/numerology/dates-4-systems-all.txt (44.9% form patterns)
http://zodiackillerciphers.com/numerology/dates-6-systems-all.txt (20.6% form patterns)
http://zodiackillerciphers.com/numerology/dates-9-systems-all.txt (8.5% form patterns)

There are many other numerological systems I haven’t tested. For example, what if we simply added the digits of the dates: 7/20/1970 becomes: 7+2+0+1+9+7+0 = 26, 2+6=8. Or you could multiply the individual digits (except for zero). Or you could shift the numbers by some fixed amount before computing the sum. Or you could convert the dates into their names, then convert all the letters of the names into numerical equivalents and perform arithmetic on them. Or you could leave out the day or the month when computing the sum or product. The possibilities just keep going. The discovery of any such pattern for a given set of dates would seem fantastic in isolation, but clearly you have to consider all the possible patterns that can be found.

Still, I cannot conclude that the killer definitely did NOT intentionally pick the dates to fit the divisible-by-5 pattern. I’m just saying that in light of this experiment, there is more room for doubt.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:23 pm

Thanks!

Very interesting results.

Personally I would tend to reject results with a four digit year, as Zodiac used a two digit year on the car door.

I also tend to reject your last "everything and the kitchen sink" category, reducing dates to a single digit creates too many patterns too easily, and as simple things like work schedules could cause dates to fall on the same day or weekends, thus too easily showing patterns when none were intended.

So far me the most valid study is below, facing the central issue of random occurence of a pattern of divisible by a number larger than two.

Doranchak:

In the first experiment, the program checks if the dates form sums that are divisible by some number greater than 2. For example, the date 12/23/69 forms this sum: 12+23+69=104. 104 is divisible by 4. Here are the results:

http://zodiackillerciphers.com/numerolo … tems-1.txt (1.9% form patterns)
http://zodiackillerciphers.com/numerolo … tems-1.txt (0.19% form patterns)
http://zodiackillerciphers.com/numerolo … tems-1.txt (0.02% form patterns)

AK Wilks: Then the question becomes, what is significant?

A 2% chance, something that happens randomly once out of 50 tries. I find that right on the borderline between moderately interesting to potentially significant. But it probably is not enough to catch the eye or major interest of law enforcement or most Zodiac researchers. It could just be chance and most will write it off that way. And they may be right.

Your work does show that patterns with numbers can happen by chance more than one might think.

So this whole theory probably will lose in the court of public opinion, and the results are just not spectacular enough, so I probably will not show them to law enforcement. Also, even if I or someone did, it is not clear what if anything law enforcement could do with the information.

But I happen to think based on both Zodiac’s claims/clues and the evidence, the Zodiac did likely kidnap Johns and Lass.

Thus the results for SIX instances of just 0.19% happening by chance I think is significant to very significant. There is only a 1 out of 500 chance of a divisible by number pattern happening in six random dates, but it DOES happen in these six Zodiac crimes – the four confirmed plus the two possible/probables of Johns and Lass.

So IMO it is likely that this number pattern was intentional by Zodiac.

Also, doranchak/thebigZ/everyone, what if anything do you make of Zodiac himself marking numbers on his symbol that CAN MATCH TO THE MURDER DATES NUMBER THEORY?

Look at the 6, 8, 10 and 11 that Zodiac marks are a possible mathematical match to the four confirmed murders.

12/20/68 = 100 @ 10 spot. Because 100/5 = 20 and 20 – 10 = 10.

7/4/69 = 80 @ 6 spot. Because 80/5 = 16 and 16 – 10 = 6.

9/27/69 = 105 @ 11 spot. Because 105/5 = 21 and 21 – 10 = 11.

10/11/69 = 90 @ 8 spot. Because 90/5 = 18 and 18 – 10 = 8.

Is there a better, simpler or more logical way to express what I am trying to say mathematically above?

Also the next cases most often mentioned as possible Zodiac crimes – Hakari, Johns, Radetich. Lass, Bennallack – they ALL fit the number theory. Something your work shows is mighty rare indeed to happen by chance.

GRAPHIC BY AWESHUCKS MODIFIED TO SHOW ONLY FOUR CONFIRMED ZODIAC CASES

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:40 pm

Ahhhhh one day I’ll figure out what the hell you guys are doing, proving numbers with numbers. Until I do I’ll just throw something into the mix and then run. Whilst it seems reasonable to consider the marks as murder dates, especially with the numerical conclusions that are being found and explored I was just wondering.

What if it’s not murder dates? What if it’s about time. I say this because the most obvious is 6:30 as marked at the LB attack 1 month and 13 days earlier but then do the other times correlate to known or suspected attacks? I know at least one then one that could be shoe-horned if were talking about hours ie between certain hours.

Then I have another question. What if it’s not about either? What if it has something to do with the context of the 6 page letter on which it appeared which ended with "Have Fun!! By the way it could prove rather messy if you try to bluff me."

Then we have the diagram.

Then we have the P.S. Is it suggesting that something happened on that day at 7pm? Seems unlikely as the P.S was fitted in around the diagram and in a position to emphasize it was a P.S.

So was the diagram relevant to the message of the 6 page letter? In regards to similar events – bombs. Or, is it separate and about dates of murders (or attacks) and as a departure to the overall theme did that prompt the P.S. just to make sure that it’s importance wasn’t missed?

FFT? (food for thought)

EDIT: Or did he just like rock around the clock?

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:29 pm

You all are so smart when it comes to that stuff. Way over my head. :alien:

I do think he was into "direction" and "time" does work well with that Trav.

Although, I wonder if those x’s represent his victims that died?

In regard to the "Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates"….

Have any of you code people ever figured digits into the 340 or the other unsolved code/ciphers?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:51 pm

Although, I wonder if those x’s represent his victims that died?

Thought that too T and even simpler, I like simple. Is it simply that, as T says and can we prove that to tidy it up?

AAARRRRGGGHHHHH Edit: but does that interfere with his tally score at that point. Stoopid , complicated nutbag.

Jem, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:32 am

My thoughts –
Divisibility by 2 – Why you guys think it’s okay to toss this?

Kitchen Sink method – with this, you can use ANY number of dates and get the probability as close to 100% as you like. So the thing is, what’s an interesting pattern? It should be something simple, something that could or should have been figured out a long time ago, imo. Maybe Z hoped someone would notice and this would cause public alarm? Dunno.

Divide by 5, subtract 10 – I’m not quite comfortable with this. Too complicated. Maybe Dave can figure out another equation that works better, as AK suggests? Or maybe it has nothing to do with the marked Xs.

Five Xs on the diagram – is that a clue meant to point to a divisibility by 5 method of committing murders? As well as whatever else they might mean?

Weekend dates – probably a good idea to count the number of weekend dates (Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays) in the relevant time period for the 4 confirmed Z crimes. Just to see if the probability is what you’d expect, or higher or lower.

bentley, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:13 am

Weekend dates – probably a good idea to count the number of weekend dates (Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays) in the relevant time period for the 4 confirmed Z crimes. Just to see if the probability is what you’d expect, or higher or lower.

I did that, and posted them. AK probably saved it.

Whatever these tick marks mean, I think they could be a very key insight into Z and his crimes. Done at a time when he is very satisfied with himself. A month has passed since Stine and he’s apparently in the clear, enough to admit to the Fouke encounter. Needling the cops, announcing his new terror campaign with the bomb, really dishing it out. Did he perhaps go a bit far and give us a decent clue with the tick marks?

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:58 am

Although, I wonder if those x’s represent his victims that died?

Thought that too T and even simpler, I like simple. Is it simply that, as T says and can we prove that to tidy it up?

AAARRRRGGGHHHHH Edit: but does that interfere with his tally score at that point. Stoopid , complicated nutbag.

I do wonder if those who didn’t die were still considered his victims.

Nov 8th, his first tally, he claims 7 victims. That would be correct—although he claims Aug., but didn’t write August on the car door at LB….so, I think he had no August victims….another ruse.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … 340-cipher

smithy, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:17 am

……..although he claims Aug., but didn’t write August on the car door at LB….so, I think he had no August victims….another ruse.

Ah…. what a good spot and what an incontrovertible fact. Luscious. Or "Gert lush" as we say around here.
Where’s the "we are not worthy" emoticon?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:21 am

Jem = "My thoughts –
Divisibility by 2 – Why you guys think it’s okay to toss this?"

AK – Doranchak did do a calculation with divisible by two dates and you can see the results. I argued to him that since every number is odd or even, and all even numbers are divisible by two, could he also do a calculation only with numbers divisible by three or higher. Otherwise IMO you get way too many unintended patterns from numbers divisible by two. Doranchak agreed that perhaps this was a fair point and was nice enough to do a calculation without the divisible by two.

Jem – Kitchen Sink method – with this, you can use ANY number of dates and get the probability as close to 100% as you like. So the thing is, what’s an interesting pattern? It should be something simple, something that could or should have been figured out a long time ago, imo. Maybe Z hoped someone would notice and this would cause public alarm? Dunno.

Divide by 5, subtract 10 – I’m not quite comfortable with this. Too complicated. Maybe Dave can figure out another equation that works better, as AK suggests? Or maybe it has nothing to do with the marked Xs.

AK – I agree. I see the pattern, and it seems to me to perhaps be intentional. Yet I am still not comfortable with it! It is a little too elaborate, and Doranchak has shown number patterns can happen by chance more than you may think. To say the pattern is add the numbers in the dates, divide by 5, then minus 10 – well it seems too contrived! It works, yes it does do that. But what does it mean? Why that formula?

The only thing I can suggest is that IF Zodiac viewed his symbol as a clock face, then the formula above would render dates that add up to numbers between 70 and 141 into numbers 1 through 12.

Jem – Five Xs on the diagram – is that a clue meant to point to a divisibility by 5 method of committing murders? As well as whatever else they might mean?

AK – I never caught that! Five marks means divide dates by five! Could be…he had only done four crimes by that point, but makes five marks.

Jem – Weekend dates – probably a good idea to count the number of weekend dates (Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays) in the relevant time period for the 4 confirmed Z crimes. Just to see if the probability is what you’d expect, or higher or lower.

AK – As he indicated, Bentley already did this. If you say Zodiac only did crimes on weekends, then the odds of a divisible by five date go from one in five to about one in six. It changes the odds of four random dates hitting divisible by five from 1 in 625 to about 1 in 1300. A significant change IMO! However using the doranchak calculation of all numbers above two being divisible changes the 1 in 625 to 1 in 50. A similar ratio and reduction would apply to what I dubbed the Bentley Weekend Limitation Factor or BWLF.

GRAPHIC BELOW CREATED BY BENTLEY

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:06 pm

Does this have or could it have anything to do with the missing 7? Arrived the day before.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:15 pm

TRAV that is a good idea to explore if there could be a link. And a "7" is indeed missing.

The inclusion of "Aug" and the "7" has bedeviled researchers. I frankly do not know what it means either.

Debra Furlong and Kathie Snoozy were brutally murdered in a SF Bay area park on August 3, 1969.

Or 8/3/69, which means 8 + 3 + 69 = 80. Which fits this pattern. In a letter Zodiac claimed credit for "7" victims and included Dec (Jensen/Faraday), July (Ferrin), Sept (Shepherd), Oct (Stine) and Aug (???). Some speculated if Zodiac was hinting at credit for the Furlong/Snoozy murder, which would account for 7 victims and the "Aug".

Two years later another women was killed in the park and Karl Werner, a mentally disturbed young man, pled guilty to that murder and Furlong/Snoozy. And available evidence seems to indicate he did kill Furlong/Snoozy, though it is not absolute, if you think a mentally ill person could do a murder, and then also confess to murders he did not do, which has happened before. But it seems Werner was guilty.

Did Zodiac really kill Furlong and Snoozy? Possible but highly doubtful.

Or seeing a high profile murder that coincidentially fit his number pattern pattern, did he lie and hint at credit for it to confuse detectives?

Or does "Aug" mean something else, perhaps a murder to come?

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:44 pm

……..although he claims Aug., but didn’t write August on the car door at LB….so, I think he had no August victims….another ruse.

Ah…. what a good spot and what an incontrovertible fact. Luscious. Or "Gert lush" as we say around here.
Where’s the "we are not worthy" emoticon?

He also wrote Vallejo…which it wasn’t in David & Betty’s case. I wonder where locals thought the boundaries were? Maybe Zodiac wasn’t as familiar as we think??

If Zodiac was into numbers/dates, I would think there would be digits in his codes somewhere. ??

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:45 pm

Does this have or could it have anything to do with the missing 7? Arrived the day before.

I’ve always thought those two (Nov. 8 & 9) had something to do with each other. Why send them a day apart to the same exact place…one with a cipher?

Jem, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:58 am

AK wrote:
Or does "Aug" mean something else, perhaps a murder to come?

How about AUGUR –
Verb – predict, foretell, foreshadow, be an omen of
Noun – oracle, prophet, seer, soothsayer

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:54 am

I was curious about this question: How many ways are there to select 4 random dates that have these qualities:

* All four dates form sums that are divisible evenly by 5
* When the same number is subtracted from each sum, 4 out of the 5 clock face positions are selected. The 5 possible clock face positions are 6, 8, 9, 10, and 11.

Here’s how I tried to answer this question. Warning: Lots of math and combinatorics. The executive summary: There is reason to believe the pattern is just coincidence, so we need more evidence to confirm the pattern. Here’s the full analysis:

First, let’s look at this date range: 1/1/68 through 12/31/70. There are 1,095 days between those dates (including 1/1/68 and 12/31/70). Think of the 1,095 days as a big deck of cards. How many ways are there to select 4 cards from the deck, where order doesn’t matter? (For example, picking 7/4/68 and 8/1/70 is equivalent to picking 8/1/70 and 7/4/68)

Answer: 1,095 choose 4 = 59,574,855,795 (about 59.5 billion).

How many of those 1,095 days add up to numbers that are divisible by 5? Answer: 217, which is very close to the expected 20% of the 1,095 days. You can see the full list here.

So, we now have a smaller deck of 217 cards. How many ways can we select 4 cards from this smaller deck?

Answer: 217 choose 4 = 89,857,530 (about 90 million). Notice that this works out to about 1 in 663 of all possible date selections, which is close to the 1 in 625 that was predicted previously.

Now we want to know this: How many of these 90 million "hands" will select four out of five of the following clock positions: 6, 8, 9, 10, and 11?

First, the way we select a clock position is by looking at the sum formed by the date parts. For example, 7/4/69 = 80. And 80/5 = 16. To reach the clock position 6, we subtract 10 from 16. I’ll refer to 10 as the "offset".

There is no reason to assume that 10 is the only possible offset value. We have to consider all offset values that can produce four out of five of the clock positions. Here is an example:

Consider the clock positions 6, 8, 9, and 10. Let’s say we have dates that form the sums 70, 80, 85 and 90. If we divide those sums by 5, we get: 14, 16, 17, and 18. If we use an offset of 8, we get: 14-8 = 6, 16-8 = 8, 17-8 = 9, and 18-8 = 10. Therefore, we matched the clock face sequence 6, 8, 9, and 10 by using an offset of 8.

How many ways are there to do this?

Observe that the smallest sum that can be produced in the range 1/1/68 through 12/31/70 is 1+1+68 = 70. This is because there is no month smaller than 1, no day smaller than 1, and no year smaller than 68. Similarly, the largest sum that can be produced in the same range is 12+31+70 = 113. Thus, the range of sums that are divisible by 5 is: 70 through 110. Therefore, every sequence of sums will fall in this range. We can look at every possible sequence of sums, and count up how many combinations of dates produce them.

To do this, let’s create a bucket for each sum. Each bucket is assigned a number from 70 through 100. So we have nine buckets labelled 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 105, and 100. If we go through each date between 1/1/68 and 12/31/70, we can compute its sum and place the date in the appropriate bucket. For example, 1/1/68 will go into the "70" bucket. After we do this, we can count up how many dates are in each bucket:

Bucket 70 has 1 date in it.
Bucket 75 has 15 dates in it.
Bucket 80 has 30 dates in it.
Bucket 85 has 36 dates in it.
Bucket 90 has 36 dates in it.
Bucket 95 has 36 dates in it.
Bucket 100 has 34 dates in it.
Bucket 105 has 22 dates in it.
Bucket 110 has 7 dates in it.

In AK’s example, the dates formed this sequence of sums: 80, 90, 100, and 105. How many unique combinations of dates will produce that sequence? The answer is the product of counts for each bucket:

(count of dates in bucket 80) * (count of dates in bucket 90) * (count of dates in bucket 100) * (count of dates in bucket 105) = 30 * 36 * 34 * 22 = 807,840 combinations.

Finally, we need to tally up those combinations for every possible sequence of sums:

Clock face selections: 6,8,9,10:
70,80,85,90 offset 8 1*30*36*36=38,880
75,85,90,95 offset 9 15*36*36*36=699,840
80,90,95,100 offset 10 30*36*36*34=1,321,920
85,95,100,105 offset 11 36*36*34*22=969,408
90,100,105,110 offset 12 36*34*22*7=188,496
total: 3,218,544

Clock face selections: 6,8,9,11:
70,80,85,95 offset 8 1*30*36*36=38,880
75,85,90,100 offset 9 15*36*36*34=660,960
80,90,95,105 offset 10 30*36*36*22=855,360
85,95,100,110 offset 11 36*36*34*7=308,448
total: 1,863,648

Clock face selections: 6,8,10,11:
70,80,90,95 offset 8 1*30*36*36=38,880
75,85,95,100 offset 9 15*36*36*34=660,960
80,90,100,105 offset 10 30*36*34*22=807,840
85,95,105,110 offset 11 36*36*22*7=199,584
total: 1,707,264

Clock face selections: 6,9,10,11:
70,85,90,95 offset 8 1*36*36*36=46,656
75,90,95,100 offset 9 15*36*36*34=660,960
80,95,100,105 offset 10 30*36*34*22=807,840
85,100,105,110 offset 11 36*34*22*7=188,496
total: 1,703,952

Clock face selections: 8,9,10,11:
70,75,80,85 offset 6 1*15*30*36=16,200
75,80,85,90 offset 7 15*30*36*36=583,200
80,85,90,95 offset 8 30*36*36*36=1,399,680
85,90,95,100 offset 9 36*36*36*34=1,586,304
90,95,100,105 offset 10 36*36*34*22=969,408
95,100,105,110 offset 11 36*34*22*7=188,496
total: 4,743,288

Grand total: 13,236,696. This means that of all possible selections of dates, about 13 million of them will select 4 out of 5 of the clock face positions.

Therefore, if you look at any set of 4 dates, where they all form sums divisible by 5, there is a (13,236,696/89,857,530) = 14.7% chance of stumbling upon a selection of 4 out of 5 of the clock face positions.

Clearly, if we consider other divisibility factors besides 5, and variations of the numerological scheme, the numbers will be completely different. And the chances of finding a pattern will just keep going up.

Conclusion: The analysis shows that the chance of selecting 4 out of 5 clock face positions (from among dates that are divisible by five) is high enough to be a coincidence, especially if we consider introducing variations to the divisibility factors and numerological scheme. If Zodiac can be definitively linked to more crime dates that fit the pattern, then the chances will decrease. At this point, I think there is too much doubt to know for sure if the pattern is real, without confirming it with more evidence.

(As always, I welcome questions, corrections, and criticisms of the analysis)

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:55 pm

Great work. Very detailed and excellent in conception and execution.

I see no flaws and agree with most of your conclusions even.

To be clear the odds of four random dates hitting a divisible number pattern is 2%, while the odds of Zodiac mentioning four correctly in five dates marked is almost 15%. Correct? I agree 15% is too high to rely much upon. Could just be chance.

If I may ask one thing – lets assume Johns was a victim. Zodiac does mark the four confirmed dates plus a number that matches to the Johns date. Agreed?

If possible can you calculate the odds of getting 5 out of 5 right randomly? Thanks.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:15 am

To be clear the odds of four random dates hitting a divisible number pattern is 2%, while the odds of Zodiac mentioning four correctly in five dates marked is almost 15%. Correct? I agree 15% is too high to rely much upon. Could just be chance.

Yes – I determined the probabilities of two events: 1) The probability of picking four dates that have any divisibility pattern, and 2) The probability of selecting four out of five clock face positions when the set of dates that are divisible by five are already selected.

In my calculation for #2, I only considered one factor (the number five), and one numerological scheme (offset subtracted from the sum divided by five). Making matters worse is the fact that there are many possible variations to both numerological schemes (the one producing the sum in the first place, and the one that produces the clock face positions). Including those variations will greatly increase the chances of stumbling across patterns.

If I may ask one thing – lets assume Johns was a victim. Zodiac does mark the four confirmed dates plus a number that matches to the Johns date. Agreed?

If possible can you calculate the odds of getting 5 out of 5 right randomly? Thanks.

Sure –

Calculation for 5 matches:

How many ways to select 5 dates from all 1,095 dates? Answer: (1,095 choose 5) = 12,999,233,534,469 (about 13 trillion)

How many ways to select 5 dates from the 217 dates, so all 5 dates are divisible by 5? Answer: (217 choose 5) = 3,827,930,778 (about 3.8 billion)

How many of those fit all of the clock face positions 6, 8, 9, 10 and 11?

Answer:

70,80,85,90,95 offset 8 1*30*36*36*36=1,399,680
75,85,90,95,100 offset 9 15*36*36*36*34=23,794,560
80,90,95,100,105 offset 10 30*36*36*34*22=29,082,240
85,95,100,105,110 offset 11 36*36*34*22*7=6,785,856
Grand total: 61,062,336

61,062,336 / 3,827,930,778 = 1.6%.

Once 5 dates are selected that are divisible by 5, there is a 1.6% chance of accidentally selecting all clock face positions using this scheme.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:24 pm

Doranchak: "Once 5 dates are selected that are divisible by 5, there is a 1.6% chance of accidentally selecting all clock face positions using this scheme."

AK Wilks: Well I must admit I do find that potentially interesting. I think a 1.6% chance is rather low. Of course I do think Johns was a Zodiac victim – if others do not, than this does not apply. I also think Lass was a probable Z victim, and the "7" spot is noticably missing here in the chain Z marked of 6, 8, 9, 10 , 11. That is debatable. I also think it is POSSIBLE that Hakari, Bennallack and Radetich were Z victims, and I think it is PROBABLE that Z hinted at credit foe Radetich, Lass and Bennallack. And ALL of those – Johns, Hakari, Radetich, Lass and Bennallack – fit into BOTH the number pattern and marks made by Zodiac on his symbol (with the exception of Lass, who is perhaps notable for the missing 7 spot).

So I still lean in favor of their being something to this number theory, though I accept that the numbers, ranging from low to not so low, will not be exceptional enough to convince most researchers or anyone in LE.

So I don’t know where to go with this. Doranchak does show number patterns happen more by chance than you may think, so there are good grounds for skepticism here too.

But I am still impressed by Zodiac marking numbers that match to the four confirmed cases + Johns, and also that the next 1970 cases mentioned as possible Zodiac all fit.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:24 am

Doranchak – I gave a condensed and edited version of you excellent work and our interesting debate on the number theory here:

http://unazod.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=14&p=2058#p2058

If you or anyone else spot any errors, omissions or mistakes please let me know.

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:20 am

Picking specific dates to commit his crimes gave Zodiac a feeling of control.
Less organized killers would not beable to do so. By the way AK, I agree with
you about Johns being a valid Zodiac victim. And she did recognize the composite
sketch as her kidnapper, so why does everyone want to discount the validity of the
sketch portraying Zodiac? Thin face, trim build? Thin face, stocky body? How does
one achieve that look? With a padded disguise. Zodiac had a weird but absolute sense
of Honor. There are things he might lie about, to throw off the cops, but he would NEVER
take credit for a victim which he didn’t take. Each hole punch in the postcard sent was punched
with deliberate statement, each hole representing a victim. Each victim remembered and relished
as evidence of his power over people. IMO.
As far as the mathematics go, that is not my forte, although I got an A in Trig.
Think of the schizophrenic mind, mathematically. Math on madness.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:19 pm

Does Cheri Jo fit on there? and if where. That could be interesting.

EDIT nope 106

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:43 pm

OWK – Good points, I mostly agree.

Does Cheri Jo fit on there? and if where. That could be interesting.

EDIT nope 106

Good question, but…

Objection, asked and answered!

A long time back:

Doranchak: "What about Bates and Domingos/Edwards? They are often brought up as possible victims.

Bates: 10+30+66 = 106. Divisible by 2, 53, and 106.
Domingos/Edwards: 6+4+63 = 73. Only divisible by 73."

Bentley: "Oh, Oh! I know that one.

Since Z claims to have "started his collection of slaves" with LHR (see first couple of Z letters), perhaps the whole Z personal and numbers game also started there.

Maybe. I’m still a skeptic but it’s interesting study material. "

AK Wilks: Righto Sir Bentley. The murders of Domigos/Edwards and Bates were not at the time publicly claimed by "The Zodiac". So if there is anything to this we start with the confirmed Zodiac cases of 12/20/68, 7/4/69, 9/27/69 and 10/11/69.

What is incredible is that the next 5 cases in 1970 mentioned as possible Zodiac cases all fit – Hakari, Johns, Radetich, Lass, Bennallack.

————————

AK Wilks: The way the numbers are written on the car door, it is almost like the first part of a math problem. Maybe they are there to be added up.

Interestingly, if you take 9/27/69 it equals 105. But the way Zodiac writes "Sept" instead of "9" it would not work, except he adds "6:30" and 6+3 = 9, so as 27 + 69 + 9 it still equals 105.

TRAV – Could you or someone possibly make a better graphic illustrating this point? Better than my childlike scrawl? If so thanks!

morf13, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:44 pm

Doranchak: "Once 5 dates are selected that are divisible by 5, there is a 1.6% chance of accidentally selecting all clock face positions using this scheme."

AK Wilks: Well I must admit I do find that potentially interesting. I think a 1.6% chance is rather low. Of course I do think Johns was a Zodiac victim – if others do not, than this does not apply. I also think Lass was a probable Z victim, and the "7" spot is noticably missing here in the chain Z marked of 6, 8, 9, 10 , 11. That is debatable. I also think it is POSSIBLE that Hakari, Bennallack and Radetich were Z victims, and I think it is PROBABLE that Z hinted at credit foe Radetich, Lass and Bennallack. And ALL of those – Johns, Hakari, Radetich, Lass and Bennallack – fit into BOTH the number pattern and marks made by Zodiac on his symbol (with the exception of Lass, who is perhaps notable for the missing 7 spot).

So I still lean in favor of their being something to this number theory, though I accept that the numbers, ranging from low to not so low, will not be exceptional enough to convince most researchers or anyone in LE.

So I don’t know where to go with this. Doranchak does show number patterns happen more by chance than you may think, so there are good grounds for skepticism here too.

But I am still impressed by Zodiac marking numbers that match to the four confirmed cases + Johns, and also that the next 1970 cases mentioned as possible Zodiac all fit.

Pretty interesting theory and illustration. What other dates would fit onto that circle thingamajig? Maybe we can find crimes committed on dates that fit it?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:55 pm

AK Wrote

Since Z claims to have "started his collection of slaves" with LHR (see first couple of Z letters), perhaps the whole Z personal and numbers game also started there.

Yup had the same thought just after I posted and replied to myself lol.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:57 pm

Morf that is a very good question. I have looked at it a little bit.

I would encourage anyone with any possible Zodiac crimes in other states to see if the murder dates consistently fit this pattern. If they do perfectly it may provide a reason for some (mainly me probably) to take a closer look at them.

I did look at Kaczynski crimes, some did fit, but did not see a consistent pattern fitting the number theory.

The first two and last two EAR/VR/ONS crimes fit, but not most of those in between, so there does not seem to be a consistent pattern.

It may be in any series of crimes, some will fit the pattern, but as doranchak would tell us (and I agree), unless all the crimes in a series fit the pattern it is probably just chance and thus should not be relied on. Three out of five or six out of eight is not good enough.

The number theory appears likely valid IMO from December 20, 1968 until November 25, 1970. From then until November 28, 1981 it is somewhat interesting but not beyond chance. After that it is hit and miss, more miss, so the hits don’t stand out as unlikely probability wise.

This is the pattern of crimes that may be linked by the murder dates number theory:

Zodiac Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100

Zodiac Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80

Zodiac Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105

Zodiac Paul Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90

Zodiac Possible Judith Hakari (3/7/70) = 3 + 7 + 70 = 80

Zodiac Probable Kathleen Johns (3/22/70) = 3 + 22 + 70 = 95

Zodiac Possible Officer Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95

Zodiac Probable Donna Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85

Zodiac Possible Nancy Bennallack (10/25/70) 10 + 25 + 70 = 105

EAR/VR Professor Snelling (9/11/75) = 9 + 11 + 75 = 95

EAR/ONS Mr. and Mrs. "H" (10/1/79) = 10 + 1 + 79 = 90

Unabomber Flight 444 (11/15/79) = 11 + 15 + 79 = 105

EAR/ONS Domingo/Sanchez (7/27/81) 7 + 27 + 81 = 115

Zodiac Possible Joan Webster (11/28/81) = 11 + 28 + 81 = 120

EAR/ONS Janelle Cruz (5/4/86) = 5 + 4 + 86 = 95

morf13, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:10 pm

Ak, I will take a look and see if I find cases that look like possibilities….how about that June 67 double murder in Alameda county, the couple attacked while they were parked on the lovers lane? Will have to double check the date

Jem, Subject: Re: Number Theory Linking Zodiac Murder Dates Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:04 am

AK wrote:

Interestingly, if you take 9/27/69 it equals 105. But the way Zodiac writes "Sept" instead of "9" it would not work, except he adds "6:30" and 6+3 = 9, so as 27 + 69 + 9 it still equals 105.

No doubt LE wondered why Z wrote Sept instead of 9. Could it be the date + time was written like that because Z hoped to clue investigators into the fact that they should add month + day + year, rather than add up each individual digit?

TimeCop, Subject: Baconian Cypher Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:26 pm

had posted at WS about a baconian cypher i discovered in the confession letter.
When starting with the ‘By—– (as the first ‘B’. i discvered interesting letters. None of them pan out in a code except, all of the letters with double alphabet applied did annogram to, and check this out:
The first possible annogram was Abduct.(when eliminating the B of by and starting with an A I got all kinds of annograms)
from just that second batch of letters. Anyways, I am not to great at these cyphers, so if you feel it is important, let me know and I will post what I discovered. As well, I converted dates of the murders and letters in a different fashion as this post and discovered 18 matches of 28 which was exceptionally odd, ass different dates and letters matched. Let me know if I should post those as well.
I have not had time to work any of those, and would gladly share them for others to take the findings on if you like. Let me know.

TimeCop, Subject: Cypher? Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:35 pm

I had it open, so i will drop it for you all to look over. I have not had time to work this over, As I am chasing other leads.

Have fun with this, i hope it pans out for those of you knowing what to do with these baconian cyphers
Try the same Baconian cypher eliminating the first ‘B’ and see aht happens.
There may be a way to further break these down, but I am dumb to the idea and don’t know where to start.
I hope it helps you in this thread, as I am confident that we will have Zodiac in prison very soon.
is:
1st string encoded ( A+B only at beginning of words including ‘By’ on text at top)
B*Y____________
SHE WAS YOUNG A*ND B*EAUTIFUL B*UT NOW SHE IS B*ATTERED A*ND DEAD. SHE IS NOT THE FIRST A*ND SHE WILL NOT B*E THE LAST I LAY A*WAKE NIGHTS THINKING A*BOUT MY NEXT VICTIM. MAYBE SHE WILL B*E THE B*EAUTIFUL B*LOND THAT B*ABYSITS NEAR THE LITTLE STORE A*ND WALKS DOWN THE DARK A*LLEY EACH EVENING A*BOUT SEVEN. OR MAYBE SHE WILL B*E THE SHAPELY B*RUNETT THAT SAID NO WHEN I A*SKED HER FOR A* DATE IN HIGH SCHOOL. B*UT MAYBE IT WILL NOT B*E EITHER. B*UT I SHALL CUT OFF HER FEMALE PARTS A*ND DEPOSIT THEM FOR THE WHOLE CITY TO SEE. SO DON’T MAKE IT TO EASY FOR ME. KEEP YOUR SISTERS, DAUGHTERS, A*ND WIVES OFF THE STREETS A*ND A*LLEYS. MISS B*ATES WAS STUPID. SHE WENT TO THE SLAUGHTER LIKE A* LAMB. SHE DID NOT PUT UP A* STRUGGLE. B*UT I DID. IT WAS A* B*ALL. I FIRST CUT THE MIDDLE WIRE FROM THE DISTRIBUTOR. THEN I WAITED FOR HER IN THE LIBRARY A*ND FOLLOWED HER OUT A*FTER A*BOUT TWO MINUTES. THE B*ATTERY MUST HAVE B*EEN A*BOUT DEAD B*Y THEN. I THEN OFFERED TO HELP. SHE WAS THEN VERY WILLING TO TALK TO ME. I TOLD HER THAT MY CAR WAS DOWN THE STREET A*ND THAT I WOULD GIVE HER A* LIFT HOME. WHEN WE WERE A*WAY FROM THE LIBRARY WALKING, I SAID IT WAS A*BOUT TIME. SHE A*SKED ME, "A*BOUT TIME FOR WHAT?" I SAID IT WAS A*BOUT TIME FOR HER TO DIE. I GRABBED HER A*ROUND THE NECK WITH MY HAND OVER HER MOUTH A*ND MY OTHER HAND WITH A* SMALL KNIFE A*T HER THROAT. SHE WENT VERY WILLINGLY. HER B*REAST FELT WARM A*ND VERY FIRM UNDER MY HANDS, B*UT ONLY ONE THING WAS ON MY MIND. MAKING HER PAY FOR A*LL THE B*RUSH OFFS THAT SHE HAD GIVEN ME DURING THE YEARS PRIOR. SHE DIED HARD. SHE SQUIRMED A*ND SHOOK A*S I CHOCKED HER, A*ND HER LIPS TWICHED. SHE LET OUT A *SCREAM ONCE A*ND I KICKED HER IN THE HEAD TO SHUT HER UP. I PLUNGED THE KNIFE INTO HER A*ND IT B*ROKE. I THEN FINISHED THE JOB B*Y CUTTING HER THROAT. I A*M NOT SICK. I A*M INSANE. B*UT THAT WILL NOT STOP THE GAME. THIS LETTER SHOULD B*E PUBLISHED FOR A*LL TO READ IT. IT JUST MIGHT SAVE THAT GIRL IN THE A*LLEY. B*UT THAT’S UP TO YOU. IT WILL B*E ON YOUR CONSCIENCE. NOT MINE. YES, I DID MAKE THAT CALL TO YOU A*LSO. IT WAS JUST A* WARNING. B*EWARE…I A*M STALKING YOUR GIRLS NOW.

B ABBB/AAB AA/BBBB A/AAB BA/ABB BA/ AAAB A/ABAB A/A A ABA/B AAA A/AAA AA/AA BAB/ AB AAA/AA ABB/ AABBA/ ABB AA/BA

1st strand is first word By as first B broken into 5 letters each(baconian)

B ABBB/ = (1) Z (2) X AAB AA/ =(1+2) E BBBB A/= ? AAB BA/=(1+2) G ABB BA/= (1)P (2)O AAAB A/ =(1+2) C ABAB A/ = (1) L (2) K AA ABA/ = C B AAA A/=(1) R (2) Q AAA AA/ =(1+2) A AA BAB/= (1+2) F AB AAA/=(1) I + J (2)I AA ABB/= D AABBA/= G ABB AA/ =(1) N (2) M BA=?

1) Z E ? G P C L C R A F I J D G N ? (no Solution Found
X O K Q I M first crypto possibility is ABDUCT

My opinion is that this is an interesting but specious finding. Mathematics is the study of the measurement, properties, and relationships of quantities and sets, using numbers and symbols. It is an invaluable tool to find hidden patterns in nature. The problem is that you can find patterns that are at best a specious exercise and at worse are totally delusional. The famous mathematician John Nash (From "A Beautiful Mind" fame) descended from heights of rationality into the abyss of insane delusional thinking. He came to the conclusion at one point in his life that everyone who wore a red tie was a communist agent trying to destroy him. He would spend days going through newspapers and magazines fining patterns in print that he thought conveyed secret messages that only he could find because he was a genius. This is the same man who made ground breaking work in game theory and partial differential equations. I think Freud summed it up best when he said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".

"If it could be, it might be. If it was it would be. But since it isn’t it ain’t——–that’s logic."
Richard Feynman

This ‘marked wheel’ is a fascinating puzzle in itself.
I like the ÷5-10 solution and it seems to fit, going by incident dates.
(It also has a kind of ironic ‘five and dime’ ring to it too).
Let’s say he’d decided to complete this wheel and get a mark at every clock position.
The earliest around this time period (’68-’70) would’ve been 1/1/68, or the 4 o’clock position.
If he misses that (and presuming he sticks with a constant offset of 10) then he has to wait till not only the next millinenium, but 12/31/(20)27 to get another
qualifier for the 4 o’clock position. Similarly, on the 1 through 3 o’clock positions, to obtain those he has to wait till the 1980’s or thereabouts.
Unless he considered 1 o’clock being 13 o’clock and so forth for the right hand side of the clockface.
Might be interesting to run those numbers.
And if the peak period of the Z persona was active b/w 68-70 then going too far beyond that time frame might be stretching the patameters a little too hard.
One possible solution, and although I’m sure it must’ve been tried before, i can’t seem to find anything on it, is putting the victims star signs on an astrological wheel.

He did have an astrological name, so maybe he picked them this way.
Maybe the persona had been born a couple of years before. This could be convenient to incorporate Bates.

Faraday the Libra, at 6 o’clock
Stine at Sagittarius at 8
Shepard the Capricorn at 9
Bates the Aquarius at 10
and Ferrin the Pisces at 11

To expound on this (as I ran out of time yesterday) and didn’t want to present what just suited this theory,
but it does fall down in a couple of places.

– Jensen was a Cancer but no mark at 3 ‘clock position
– 5 marks but tally is 7 (Mageau a Scorpio and Hartnell a Pisces)

Also, I’m not sure how strong of a motive he’d have for this specifically ordered choice of victims.
Why would this be so important to him to follow.
Unless they were not pre-selected, but collected instead.
i.e. He marks up whatever he happens to kill.
But it remains that those 5 confirmed victims plus Bates (although talking of Bates a hiatus of 2 years concerns me a little) all do have different star signs.
To choose them that way would mean finding out their star sign then following them till they got in a relatively secluded spot, Stines the least secluded perhaps.
But what are the chances of all 5 (or 6) being different.
Hartnell does double up with Ferrin but would a non-kill earn a mark?
Maybe there’s a couple of other murders not matched yet (or even 1 other if you accept Bates) that make up the tally.
Unfortunately this is the first tally, so we have no pre-LHR tally.
Also, not forgetting that Jensen’s sign virtually debunks this astrological wheel theory.
And I’m not finding a lot of potential victims to fill the Aries, Taurus, Leo, and Virgo spots.
In conclusion I would say this may lead nowhere.
Anyway, no stone unturned.

I would like to test the number wheel a little further though with the 13 through 18 (or 17) o’clock positions in mind.
If the dates pan out, then seeing the clockface in a 6am to 6pm frame of mind might be in conjunction with a couple of types of suspects;

– military minded
– living off the land survivalists

It would be easier to select targets based on calendar date than star sign, wouldn’t it.

as a zodiac watch calender it spells "JASON" J une A ug S ept O ct N ov. It also is 6891011 which is the ph number of a mortuary in riverside.

as a zodiac watch calender it spells "JASON" J une A ug S ept O ct N ov. It also is 6891011 which is the ph number of a mortuary in riverside.

Erm, if one writes out the first letter of each month, like JFMAMJJASOND, there is ALWAYS going to be a "JASON" in there. I highly doubt that that really means anything.

-glurk

Yup highly unlikely everything is highly unlikely when you are guessing the shit out of this crazy dude .. But he did not cross out anything but Jason. Could have crossed out "JAN" J an A ug N ov but he did not. Could have crossed shit loads of others. Missed july just to make it not stand out, and he is zodiac loves the months does not he. Was there ever a Jason victim? Or could it be a clew to a code.

I would like to test the number wheel a little further though with the 13 through 18 (or 17) o’clock positions in mind.

Did this but am not jazzed by the results.
The 12 o’clock position looks possible enough with a small helping of dates during the main time period.
Then it gets a bit tricky.
The first opportunity for the 1 o’clock position (13 o’clock) would be 12/31/72.
The first opportunity for the 2 o’clock position (14 o’clock) would be 12/31/77.
The first opportunity for the 3 o’clock position (15 o’clock) would be 12/31/82.
And so on.

So this ÷5-10 idea does seem to fall down. Unless the offset varies, then maybe other dates might more easily fit.
But how much trying to manipulate and cherrypick dates to fit a theory is going on here.
And what’s it get us, in the scheme of things anyway?
Would completing this be any sort of revelation at all?
A sort of date selection wheel does seem possible for someone who was also a cipher whiz.
But it also seems just as likely, if not moreso, that the dates being on or around holidays, is the no brainer here.
It might’ve been more helpful during the period if a pattern had been identified and extra vigilence could’ve been used.
I realise that sounds self-explanatory and wouldn’t have stopped everyone going out but you never know, might’ve prevented something.

Very interesting. However, I think the pattern is more obvious that he was a weekend killer. Just curious…but during the winter months, it seems he eased up a bit. Does anyone know what the weather was like on the weekends he chose? As opposed to the other weekends specifically in the winter months?

Very interesting. However, I think the pattern is more obvious that he was a weekend killer. Just curious…but during the winter months, it seems he eased up a bit. Does anyone know what the weather was like on the weekends he chose? As opposed to the other weekends specifically in the winter months?

try using this http://www.wolframalpha.com/

example http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sa … ather+1968

you can type any thing in on math science..and even weather for a country city or town, sunrise sunset ebbs and tides, moons ..and go back a long way ..wolfram alpha is your friend. post up if you find anything interesting.
cheers

Do you guys realize how far-fetched this theory is?! ^^

Fascinating. But I’ve always felt zodiac received way more smart points than he actually possessed.