when I first started searching info about Z years ago I saw a small ,slim newspaper article from 68 stating that a couple were parked at the cherry or maple U ( the end of those streets) late at night and were confronted by a man with a gun and he just stood there ,like it was not a robbery . They escaped but I thought were shot at . This may have been Z
The article also said that the U drives were a known couples make out point and used by hookers and johns too.

Z could have been very wealthy or upper middle class! Mis-matched tire prints mean nothing! He could have been using someone else’s car or could have had a flat and was using a spare until he got around to buying new tires!

You can’t tell a person’s socio-economic level or educational background by their tires. I don’t think Z would have used a luxury car to drive to a murder scene if he had one but otoh he certainly could have.

Z could have been very wealthy or upper middle class! Mis-matched tire prints mean nothing! He could have been using someone else’s car or could have had a flat and was using a spare until he got around to buying new tires!

You can’t tell a person’s socio-economic level or educational background by their tires. I don’t think Z would have used a luxury car to drive to a murder scene if he had one but otoh he certainly could have.

That’s what somebody typically might say if their Suspect is not poor. Almost like a Guy with a skinny suspect that says, "well he could have worn a fat suit"

Z could have been very wealthy or upper middle class! Mis-matched tire prints mean nothing! He could have been using someone else’s car or could have had a flat and was using a spare until he got around to buying new tires!

You can’t tell a person’s socio-economic level or educational background by their tires. I don’t think Z would have used a luxury car to drive to a murder scene if he had one but otoh he certainly could have.

That’s what somebody typically might say if their Suspect is not poor. Almost like a Guy with a skinny suspect that says, "well he could have worn a fat suit"

morf13-

Hmm. Well, I agree with capricorn completely, and I don’t HAVE a suspect, and never have. You can’t at all tell someone’s wealth, education, or anything else by their tire tracks.

That’s a bit like saying "well, the soles of his shoes were very worn, and people with money always buy fresh new shoes, therefore he must be a poor person."

-glurk

(That’s not even to mention that Zodiac was out there murdering people and trying to "cover his tracks" both literally and figuratively.)

For Z to have been a wealthy person who lived in that neighborhood, knows the neighbors, and takes the risk of shooting a cab driver… seems very unlikely. I have to agree that the evidence points to Z being working class or poor. Only the highest of society lived / lives in that neighborhood.

Mr. X was very interesting at first, but I think we need to move on from him.

For Z to have been a wealthy person who lived in that neighborhood, knows the neighbors, and takes the risk of shooting a cab driver… seems very unlikely. I have to agree that the evidence points to Z being working class or poor. Only the highest of society lived / lives in that neighborhood.

Mr. X was very interesting at first, but I think we need to move on from him.

I don’t think ANYONE who has been named is Z at this point!

I just don’t think he was/is poor and "working class" could mean different things to different people. To me, it means a "blue-collar worker" but to others, they might include "white collars."

Imo, Z could just as easily been very-well educated and come from a wealthy or upper-middle class background as he could have been dirt poor. At any rate, he had the smarts and ability to blend in and get away! He was clever and cunning which has nothing to do with $$$$ so we have to keep open minds. I really tend to think he could have been investigated by LE and given a clearance as he would be the type who could appear above-suspicion. Think "wolf-in-sheep’s clothing" or "fox guarding the hen house."

I do not think he lived in Pacific Heights or in Vallejo for that matter. Why would he risk being id’d by the postman, the local grocery store clerks, the neighbors and others who would have most certainly been on the lookout for him. I do think he was able to "blend-in" though and very easily which is how he managed to escape detection.

He could also be what is known as a "cheapskate" or frugal as many people are even if they have oodles of money!

Main point I am trying to make with this thread is this: is it possible that Z hailed the cab WITHOUT the intention to kill Stine?
It’s possible Z lived in SF. It’s possible he took cabs places in normal life. And it’s possible that he was going to PH for a different purpose than to shoot a cab driver.

My opinion is that Z saw the opportunity to kill Stine while in the cab. That is why he didn’t wear gloves, rode in the front seat instead of the back and left prints on the outside of the cab.

For people just to say, "his plan was to kill a cabby and run off into the Presidio" is just crazy. Really look at this and think about it. His plan was to run off, away from police and into a military base, somehow escape through a wooded hilly area? And go where, to a part more populated by the army??????

Second part of this is: if Z was going to PH for a different purpose, what could that have been?

I have lived in SF for a long time now and believe I see this in a different way than you would if you are not familiar with the town.
If Z lived downtown, near where he picked up the cab, it is possible he was heading out to grab his car he had parked over in PH.

If one lives downtown SF and has no garage, it makes having a car almost impossible. We know Z had a car, right? Downtown is full of meters, street sweeping, and lack of spaces. Even if he could park there he would be forced to move his car every few hours, or pay to have it in a garage. This is what people not familiar with SF don’t seem to understand.

That is why I think he would keep his car in PH. He could keep it there for extended periods of time and not worry about it.

Sure he may have owned a mansion over there, but until there is some evidence of that, I’m not thinking that way.

ITA and will add imo he could very well not have even lived in San Francisco but rather one of the nearby towns such as Berkeley, Oakland, Walnut Creek, Concord, etc. If so, he would have the same parking problems you describe. Were he to go to San Francisco for recreational purposes and was familiar with it, he’d know where he could park while he was out and about.

He could very well have not even lived nearby. He could have been visiting from anywhere as so many do for a weekend or longer and just parked his car (could have been a rental) in PH while he was walking around doing whatever.

Assuming killing anyone was not pre-planned, why do you think he had the gun? What do you think would have provoked him to kill Paul? Maybe it was a dispute over the fare or something Paul may have said jokingly that Z took offense to.

Assuming killing anyone was not pre-planned, why do you think he had the gun? What do you think would have provoked him to kill Paul? Maybe it was a dispute over the fare or something Paul may have said jokingly that Z took offense to.

I think the fact that he had the gun tells us he lived in SF. He probably left his place downtown with it. He can store a small gun downtown, but not a car.

It was the weekend, the time was around 10pm, just about an hour drive to Vallejo, and that would keep with the pattern of the other Vallejo area crimes he pulled off.

He may have decided to save a trip and shoot Paul instead.

Well, if it wasn’t pre-planned, then Z had a actual legitimate reason to be in the Presidio Heights section. What possible reasons could they be? He lived there, he was visiting there,house sitting,etc. He told Stine to go to Washington & Maple, yet he drove a block further,maybe because Z decided to kill him and wanted to put an extra block between the murder, and wherever he was heading.

Interesting possibilities for sure, but I have a feeling this was some pre-planned idea by Z. He wanted to kill in SF to really get the SF News spotlight. What better target than a lone cabbie.It would look like a botched robbery at first, cabbies were killed all the time in this way. Zodiac’s attacks started centered in his hime territory of Vallejo, and then,as he got comfortable, he moved outward…Napa,SF. This is common in serial killers, they start close to home and then move outward. Presidio Heights in SF is a complete opposite to Vallejo. Presidio Heights, upper class,well to do,big $$, while Vallejo is middle class and poor to blue collar. My gut feeling is that Z lived in Vallejo and worked in SF. Maybe Stibe picking him up near the theater district was part of his plan. If Z was married, he could have told his Wife,Girlfriend, etc, ‘Hey I am going to a movie in SF’. That would establish a reason for being in SF,an alibi,etc. If he somehow got caught killing Stine, the murder weapon would not be one used in the previous Z crimes, and it would look like a simple cabbie robbery gone wrong.

Another interesting possibility….he lives somewhere quite far from the bay area like somewhere in southern California and simply tells his wife or probably his girlfriend that he’s got to work that weekend (there is a big project due and he’s got to make the deadline). He hops on PSA (the airline that had the cheapie flights back then) and takes the approx. one hour flight to SF or Oakland (either airport would do). He then takes a shuttle, or rents a car and goes into SF and parks.

Or he doesn’t even need a car as he could easily take the Greyhound bus from SFO into the downtown terminal where there are lockers available. He could store whatever he wanted in one for change! From there, he could have walked to a nearby hotel or motel (he could have even stayed in the famous "Hotel California"). He could easily have gotten all around SF on foot or using public transportation with no problem whatsoever, especially since he was probably very familiar with the city and it is not hard to get around even if he wasn’t…all one needs is a map and the right change for the cable cars and buses. There was no BART in existence back then.

Z may have even gotten a secret thrill walking around with the throngs of tourists, knowing none of them would ever guess what he was thinking about doing perhaps let alone what he’d already done. I’ll bet you he really got excited walking right past "The Chronicle" building and was checking out all the mailboxes, just in case he decided to mail something to someone!

After committing the murder, he simply walks away back to any car he may have had (he could have even driven there from southern California in a matter of six hours or so) or back to his hotel and then back home without any wife or girlfriend having any clue he was out-of-town. If the girfriend was what was known as a "gu" (geographically undesirable) and lived a good distance from him, ie. 70 miles or so, this would have been even better for him as he wouldn’t have to worry about her getting suspicious or suggesting they get together for dinner after his grueling day at the office as he had to really focus on this project and get up early the next day and work again all day to meet the deadline).

Monday morning rolls around and Z is right back at the office ready for work. He may have had to punch a timeclock or maybe not and even if he was a few hours late he wouldn’t need to worry as the news probably hadn’t even gotten out yet so there would have been no chance of this murder of a cabbie in San Francisco even being talked about around the water cooler or at lunch among everyone.

This scenario makes far more sense to me than one having him living and working closer to the crime scenes as he would have the safety of distance and the security of knowing nobody would suspect him, least of all those who knew him to be the hardworking, respectable clean-cut guy that he probably was!

First off, to my knowledge, no matching set of fingerprints were discovered from the cab. If there were, then his being stupid in leaving fingerprints would make more sense. We have no proof of that, other than the fact that some kids saw him wiping the cab down- leading us to make the assumption that he was afraid of leaving prints. If we have a matching set from two different locations on the cab, then yes. But since we don’t, and since those fingerprints have ever matched anyone, we cannot state this as fact.

Witnesses said he exited from the back seat. The angle that Stein was shot in was consistent with a passenger sitting in the back.
You have to remember too that cab shootings were happening frequently in SF at that time. No way would I, if i were a cab driver, allow someone in the front seat with me where the money was. Also, again, witnesses noticed him exiting the cab, getting in the front seat for some reason that was not immediately evident (til the letter came with the shirt piece) then wiping down the cab, and leaving.

I think the fact that he had a gun with him is very telling. Unless this guy carried a pistol as a matter of course, I would take that as being evidence of preplanning. Also the location that he picked not being very well trod, that is telling. He knew the area enough to know that he could disappear, or perhaps had a car or a friend nearby. Must have been some friend, since you would think he would have a hell of lot of blood on him, not from the shooting but just from the process of putting Stine in his lap to rip off the back of his shirt. Then again, and I always thought of this in regards to the Ripper as well, he could have been wearing black, and in fact was said to be wearing black by the witnesses. Blood isn’t day-glo- its freaking red, and when it soaks into black clothing you can’t see anything. RIght? So yeah, he would have had blood on him, but if he went to a friend’s house he might have been able to pull it off without the friend noticing. And, if the friend noticed and didn’t tell the cops, why not? That would make him, ipso facto, an accomplice.
I don’t really see where its possible to conclusively state that it wasn’t preplanned.

Or he doesn’t even need a car as he could easily take the Greyhound bus from SFO into the downtown terminal where there are lockers available. He could store whatever he wanted in one for change! From there, he could have walked to a nearby hotel or motel (he could have even stayed in the famous "Hotel California").

Sorry, the "Hotel California" is not a real hotel. Its BELIEVED by many to be a reference to the Church of Satan but it is actually a metaphor for life in LA at that time. I live in LA and there is a real Hotel California here in Santa Monica- built after the fact.

Well this is very interesting news to me. I actually stayed at the Hotel California (or it may have been the Californian Hotel BY MISTAKE) when I was in my 20’s and with my sister and a friend. We’d decided to go to San Francisco for the weekend and asked an older male relative for a recommendation and he told us this was a good place. We then show up at the front desk with our luggage for the weekend and dressed for the city only to be met with total shock from the desk clerk and the men sitting in the lobby when we walked in and announced we had a reservation.

The clerk told us he had no reservation for us and it was impossible that we’d made one there as they didn’t take them! It was about eight-thirty p.m. IIRC and too late to figure out what went wrong so we took the room that was offered and have had lots of laughs about this experience over the years. The elevator was very rickety and creepy and the room we were in looked and smelled like nobody had occupied it since World War II when we were told this place had been used for military housing but who knows?

We really didn’t spend any time at all sitting in the lobby but did observe the clientele had it all spiffed up the next day when we went out and when we came back in, there was quite a few more older gentlemen who looked like they were just part of the furniture.

Main point I am trying to make with this thread is this: is it possible that Z hailed the cab WITHOUT the intention to kill Stine?
It’s possible Z lived in SF. It’s possible he took cabs places in normal life. And it’s possible that he was going to PH for a different purpose than to shoot a cab driver.

My opinion is that Z saw the opportunity to kill Stine while in the cab. That is why he didn’t wear gloves, rode in the front seat instead of the back and left prints on the outside of the cab.

For people just to say, "his plan was to kill a cabby and run off into the Presidio" is just crazy. Really look at this and think about it. His plan was to run off, away from police and into a military base, somehow escape through a wooded hilly area? And go where, to a part more populated by the army??????

Second part of this is: if Z was going to PH for a different purpose, what could that have been?

I have lived in SF for a long time now and believe I see this in a different way than you would if you are not familiar with the town.
If Z lived downtown, near where he picked up the cab, it is possible he was heading out to grab his car he had parked over in PH.

If one lives downtown SF and has no garage, it makes having a car almost impossible. We know Z had a car, right? Downtown is full of meters, street sweeping, and lack of spaces. Even if he could park there he would be forced to move his car every few hours, or pay to have it in a garage. This is what people not familiar with SF don’t seem to understand.

That is why I think he would keep his car in PH. He could keep it there for extended periods of time and not worry about it.

Sure he may have owned a mansion over there, but until there is some evidence of that, I’m not thinking that way.

I had thought about Zodiac not intending to kill Stine as well. Could be that he had a few drinks and accidentally talked about something he shouldn’t have and then realized that Stine could have been a threat now that he had some information he shouldn’t have had. Or maybe someone else was in Stine’s cab earlier in the evening and maybe said something they shouldn’t have, so this person called up his old buddy Mr. Zodiac to take care of Stine. Who knows.

These thoughts crossed my mind when I was researching someone who lived close to Washington & Cherry that was known to take cabs sometimes. I would love to get a look at Stine’s log book just to see what other fares he had that day. I wonder if any of his earlier fares were looked at by police.