I believe a shell casing from a bullet was found under Mageau, not a bullet.

Mageau is all over the place with recollection, contradicting himself many times over several years, unfortunately not much he says is then useful.

Ross and Kane both fit the profile of loners. It is therefore unlikely they "knew" of each other outside the local serial notoriety? One could claim the work of the other or vice-versa, without introduction…..possible, yes. No evidence of this turned up yet as far as what has been sleuthed out….hospitalizations notwithstanding, those hospitals keep records close to the vest!

No, it was not a casing, it was a 9mm parabellum slug, below are the words of ed rust himself transcribed from the "this is the zodiac speaking" documentary:

ED RUST: they loaded Mageau up first, and then got Darlene out of the car, and uh, one of the things I did when uh, they lifted Mageau up…I…I…we had marked uh…I think Hoffman had outlined his body with a crayon…and so I was shining the light down there…for whatever reason, I saw there was a… bullet slug underneath where Mageau had been laying, and I, I picked it up and it looked like a nine millimeter parabellum bullet, they call it.

Kane does not fit the profile of a "loner".

Most serial killers are not loners, they are very deceptive and manipulative people who often fit in very well with the people around them.

I wasn’t considering ‘most serial killers’

I know Rust’s account and the quote, yes he is a key figure who in parts of his account created more questions than answers. The ballistic evidence from Vallejo is incomplete but whatever, my point is there are different interpretations.

We disagree on Kane being a loner, perhaps I define it differently. A loner can blend and still be a loner.

Probably one that didn’t penetrate fell out of his clothes or something.

This was my first thought, I mean, mike was wearing several pairs of pants and shirts.

This would be more common with a .22 or smaller caliber bullet though, right? A 9mm is a powerful shot, I mean, maybe if it passed through the car first or something I could see this happening…

Were zodiac’s rounds "parabellum" rounds?

I wasn’t considering ‘most serial killers’

I know Rust’s account and the quote, yes he is a key figure who in parts of his account created more questions than answers. The ballistic evidence from Vallejo is incomplete but whatever, my point is there are different interpretations.

We disagree on Kane being a loner, perhaps I define it differently. A loner can blend and still be a loner.

It helps to look at "most serial killers" when attempting to implicate an individual as one, of coarse there Will always be exceptions, but if you are looking at a potentially innocent person in this manner, wouldn’t you want to see characteristics of "most serial killers" relating to them?"

It’s possible we differ on definition, but I did not see Kane as a loner.

If zodiac was "creepy" or a "loner" then why would Cheri jo Bates accept his offer for help, or go alone with him? I think his social skills were normal.

Again, most serial killers are incredibly deceptive and manipulative individuals, most of them blend in very well socially, for to do otherwise would cause others to suspect them. It is almost essential for a killer to appear "normal", well, at least if he does not want to get caught.

…and the zodiac did appear "normal", at least according to the kids from the Paul stine scene.

I am not trying to "disagree" about the blue rock springs ballistics evidence to be contentious, or to be rude, I am only asking you the questions that come into my mind when I personally try to accept the story as it is told. …and these questions should be addressed.

…also, you can claim ed rust is not reliable, (though I personally think he is) and that his story "raises questions", but you have to keep in mind that the parabellum slug found under Mike should be in police evidence, not only do we have the story, I’m sure we still have the slug.

If zodiac was "creepy" or a "loner" then why would Cheri jo Bates accept his offer for help, or go alone with him?

If Ross was Zodiac, because his brother was married to her best friend. Although creepy, she’d still likely trust him enough to not expect him to kill her. If it wasn’t Ross, you ask a great question.

Back to the subject matter. I have thought for that last couple of years that Larm was the Zodiac. However, I do believe
Ross killed Bates and I find it curious that the Riverside letters and the Bay Area letters have so many similarities. I am trying to reason this whole thing out. Maybe Kane committed the LH, BRSand LB but Ross committed the SF murder. I don’t know – jut asking for opinions.

I wasn’t considering ‘most serial killers’

I know Rust’s account and the quote, yes he is a key figure who in parts of his account created more questions than answers. The ballistic evidence from Vallejo is incomplete but whatever, my point is there are different interpretations.

We disagree on Kane being a loner, perhaps I define it differently. A loner can blend and still be a loner.

It helps to look at "most serial killers" when attempting to implicate an individual as one, of coarse there Will always be exceptions, but if you are looking at a potentially innocent person in this manner, wouldn’t you want to see characteristics of "most serial killers" relating to them?"

It’s possible we differ on definition, but I did not see Kane as a loner.

If zodiac was "creepy" or a "loner" then why would Cheri jo Bates accept his offer for help, or go alone with him? I think his social skills were normal.

Again, most serial killers are incredibly deceptive and manipulative individuals, most of them blend in very well socially, for to do otherwise would cause others to suspect them. It is almost essential for a killer to appear "normal", well, at least if he does not want to get caught.

…and the zodiac did appear "normal", at least according to the kids from the Paul stine scene.

I am not trying to "disagree" about the blue rock springs ballistics evidence to be contentious, or to be rude, I am only asking you the questions that come into my mind when I personally try to accept the story as it is told. …and these questions should be addressed.

To further the discussion, my view of most ‘serial’ killers is that all have a secret life and in that singularity they are alone, living in that sense as, a ‘loner,’ and whether it be by design or by instinct, they then go alone down these roads.

Kane could have met Ross while institutionalized, we may yet find this out. Thus far no evidence exists. If Bates scene DNA matches Ross and a states attorney in Sacramento makes a writ and gets a judge to sign off in it, LE might find something via institutional timelines, there would have to be compelling evidence to put it before a judge, and next if kin would typically need to sign too. The same would go for Kane should that become relevant.

The thing with BRS, nothing against Ed at all, stand up guy and has done all he can to go over it many times, but the ballistics in what Ed found/saw, what Zodiac said occurred, and what the medical reports found/stated can not be reconciled without having two bullets go through two body parts and end up in the car, almost like JFK and single bullet theory, the wounds and the bullets don’t add up (I believe there were nine off top of my head?) So that therein lies your conundrum because Ed found that slug on the pavement, there then were a number of shells and this also didn’t quite add up logically, whereby other explanations have been offered up. I think this was also your question in first place, yes? I wouldn’t worry about it, my comment earlier was only to try to explain it.

Cheri Bates was unable to get her engine to turn over after a few minutes of frustration, the key to the entire ball of wax occurred in that when she saw the person who eventually killed her, she walked off with him because he was an acquaintance, uneven as he was in personality and appearance. A killer like Bundy appeared normal, to me he was the anomaly, and someone like Zodiac stalking at Berryessa, and lover’s lanes, was more to fitting a ‘profile’ of the manner of operation, even that of a Dahmer, where everyone thought him strange even to the point if being a hindrance.

If zodiac was "creepy" or a "loner" then why would Cheri jo Bates accept his offer for help, or go alone with him?

If Ross was Zodiac, because his brother was married to her best friend. Although creepy, she’d still likely trust him enough to not expect him to kill her. If it wasn’t Ross, you ask a great question.

that makes perfect sense, if he was an acquaintance through family/marriage she would be more willing to go with him, even if he was a creep or a loner.

It is really looking like Sullivan killed Cheri jo, but I suppose I Will keep the concept in mind just in case it was not.

I wasn’t considering ‘most serial killers’

I know Rust’s account and the quote, yes he is a key figure who in parts of his account created more questions than answers. The ballistic evidence from Vallejo is incomplete but whatever, my point is there are different interpretations.

We disagree on Kane being a loner, perhaps I define it differently. A loner can blend and still be a loner.

It helps to look at "most serial killers" when attempting to implicate an individual as one, of coarse there Will always be exceptions, but if you are looking at a potentially innocent person in this manner, wouldn’t you want to see characteristics of "most serial killers" relating to them?"

It’s possible we differ on definition, but I did not see Kane as a loner.

If zodiac was "creepy" or a "loner" then why would Cheri jo Bates accept his offer for help, or go alone with him? I think his social skills were normal.

Again, most serial killers are incredibly deceptive and manipulative individuals, most of them blend in very well socially, for to do otherwise would cause others to suspect them. It is almost essential for a killer to appear "normal", well, at least if he does not want to get caught.

…and the zodiac did appear "normal", at least according to the kids from the Paul stine scene.

I am not trying to "disagree" about the blue rock springs ballistics evidence to be contentious, or to be rude, I am only asking you the questions that come into my mind when I personally try to accept the story as it is told. …and these questions should be addressed.

To further the discussion, my view of most ‘serial’ killers is that all have a secret life and in that singularity they are alone, living in that sense as, a ‘loner,’ and whether it be by design or by instinct, they then go alone down these roads.

Kane could have met Ross while institutionalized, we may yet find this out. Thus far no evidence exists. If Bates scene DNA matches Ross and a states attorney in Sacramento makes a writ and gets a judge to sign off in it, LE might find something via institutional timelines, there would have to be compelling evidence to put it before a judge, and next if kin would typically need to sign too. The same would go for Kane should that become relevant.

The thing with BRS, nothing against Ed at all, stand up guy and has done all he can to go over it many times, but the ballistics in what Ed found/saw, what Zodiac said occurred, and what the medical reports found/stated can not be reconciled without having two bullets go through two body parts and end up in the car, almost like JFK and single bullet theory, the wounds and the bullets don’t add up (I believe there were nine off top of my head?) So that therein lies your conundrum because Ed found that slug on the pavement, there then were a number of shells and this also didn’t quite add up logically, whereby other explanations have been offered up. I think this was also your question in first place, yes? I wouldn’t worry about it, my comment earlier was only to try to explain it.

Cheri Bates was unable to get her engine to turn over after a few minutes of frustration, the key to the entire ball of wax occurred in that when she saw the person who eventually killed her, she walked off with him because he was an acquaintance, uneven as he was in personality and appearance. A killer like Bundy appeared normal, to me he was the anomaly, and someone like Zodiac stalking at Berryessa, and lover’s lanes, was more to fitting a ‘profile’ of the manner of operation, even that of a Dahmer, where everyone thought him strange even to the point if being a hindrance.

I suppose they would have to have a secret life, but their public life is generally "normal". John Wayne gacy was well respected in his community, he even met Ronald Reagan. Ted Bundy was described as a very "likable" guy, women were attracted to him and he is described as being a socially charming individual. Even H.H. Holmes was described as a smooth talking, charming, and likable individual. Or we could look at Manson, he manipulated an entire group of young women with LSD and his social charm. I feel the "creepy, deranged, loner, weirdo serial killer" are actually the anomaly class of serial killers.

It is essential for a serial killer to be able to lure in human targets, and good social skills are the best tool for this, also, killers must lie to evade suspicion, and live their lives publicly as if they were very "normal" individuals. Most serial killers tend to be socially charming, manipulative, great at deception and telling lies, and great at blending in and making others think they are in fact "normal"…but again, it’s a simple difference in opinion.

…and I fully get your point.

Its more of a difference of opinion at this point, and further discussion is probably not necessary.

Blue rock springs can seem like a mess, but when you have the right suspect in mind more and more of it starts makes sense.

Blue rock springs has been my specific focus, and I feel that these discrepancies and unanswered questions need to be sorted though…

With the JFK thing, the information you have was not accurate, and some of it was "covered up", JFK was being shot at from the book depository, which accounts for part of the ballistics evidence, but there was another gun on the scene, George Hickey’s gun. Hickey was in the car behind Kennedy, and fired a .223-caliber round which hit Kennedy, oswald was firing 6.5×52mm rounds, the ballistics evidence seems confusing because you do not have all the information. I have gone over the "George hickey shot Kennedy" evidence time and time again, and it checks out, it’s the best explanation there is.

Again, what happened at blue rock springs can be sorted out, it just takes time, and you need to be able to derive conclusions from the evidence presented which may not be obvious at first glance…

While these discrepancies seem to make blue rock springs seem more confusing, ultimately is will be these strange "off" details that will pull the whole thing together.

9 shots were fired, with seven casings retrieved from the right side of the Corvair, with two expended bullet casings discovered on the back passenger floorboard of the vehicle
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/blue-rock- … ttack.html

…Also a 9mm parabellum slug was found under Mike.

A 9mm luger would be firing "parabellum" slugs, however, the gun zodiac described as the weapon used would only have had an 8-round detachable box magazine… yet 9 rounds were fired, which is why the slug under Mike is significant…where did the 9th round come from?…i have an answer, I can’t go into detail yet, but I will when I have fully built my case against my suspect at BRS.

Back to kane and Sullivan… I have always suspected that zodiac may have been more than one person working together, so I do not discount the idea.

But I feel it would be difficult to place Sullivan and/or Kane at every zodiac scene.

There is more to this than what is on the surface.

…Also a 9mm parabellum slug was found under Mike.

A 9mm luger would be firing "parabellum" slugs, however, the gun zodiac described as the weapon used would only have had an 8-round detachable box magazine… yet 9 rounds were fired, which is why the slug under Mike is significant…where did the 9th round come from?…i have an answer, I can’t go into detail yet, but I will when I have fully built my case against my suspect at BRS.

Back to kane and Sullivan… I have always suspected that zodiac may have been more than one person working together, so I do not discount the idea.

But I feel it would be difficult to place Sullivan and/or Kane at every zodiac scene.

There is more to this than what is on the surface.

The one thing Mike did say about Zodiac’s description that stands out is not so much what he looked like, but the way in which he moved/walked. It struck me because Don Fouke described the man on Jackson Street as walking in an almost identical manner. Mike said that as Zodiac finished firing his first barrage of bullets at himself and Dee, he walked back to his vehicle to reload and Mike observed him do so saying he walked casually and with his head down. Fouke said the man he saw walked slightly bent forward, head down and walked with a shuffling lope. Mike was led in the back seat of Dee’s car at the time he saw him walk back to his own car so wouldn’t have seen the bottom half of Zodiac’s body to see his legs. But Mike said, as did Don Fouke, that the guy was in no hurry (Fouke), walking casually (Mike) with his head down (Fouke & Mike).

He reloaded.

…Also a 9mm parabellum slug was found under Mike.

A 9mm luger would be firing "parabellum" slugs, however, the gun zodiac described as the weapon used would only have had an 8-round detachable box magazine… yet 9 rounds were fired, which is why the slug under Mike is significant…where did the 9th round come from?…i have an answer, I can’t go into detail yet, but I will when I have fully built my case against my suspect at BRS.

Back to kane and Sullivan… I have always suspected that zodiac may have been more than one person working together, so I do not discount the idea.

But I feel it would be difficult to place Sullivan and/or Kane at every zodiac scene.

There is more to this than what is on the surface.

The one thing Mike did say about Zodiac’s description that stands out is not so much what he looked like, but the way in which he moved/walked. It struck me because Don Fouke described the man on Jackson Street as walking in an almost identical manner. Mike said that as Zodiac finished firing his first barrage of bullets at himself and Dee, he walked back to his vehicle to reload and Mike observed him do so saying he walked casually and with his head down. Fouke said the man he saw walked slightly bent forward, head down and walked with a shuffling lope. Mike was led in the back seat of Dee’s car at the time he saw him walk back to his own car so wouldn’t have seen the bottom half of Zodiac’s body to see his legs. But Mike said, as did Don Fouke, that the guy was in no hurry (Fouke), walking casually (Mike) with his head down (Fouke & Mike).

He reloaded.

This is what I had figured as well…

Though Bryant’s description of the sequence of gun shots differs from Mike’s…

The sequence of gunshots remembered by Michael Mageau and George Bryant also differs, although what is clear is that 9 shots were fired, with seven casings retrieved from the right side of the Corvair, with two expended bullet casings discovered on the back passenger floorboard of the vehicle, indicating the killer ultimately leaned into the vehicle when concluding his senseless attack on Michael Mageau, as the young man took refuge in the back of the vehicle.

…Michael Mageau believing the person to be a policeman, because of his demeanor, went for some personal identification, at which point the man raised the handgun and without uttering a word fired a volley of five rounds at point blank range through the window, striking Michael Mageau and Darlene Ferrin several times. Mageau stated he heard a muffled sound, surmising that the gun ‘sounded like it had a silencer on it’.
At this precise moment George Bryant, the son of a caretaker at Blue Rock Springs Park was in bed at his house located just 800 feet from the parking lot. He would recall these details "He could hear laughing and a few firecrackers being shot off, but he couldn’t see anybody. At approximately midnight he heard what appeared to be a gunshot. This was much louder than any of the firecrackers. A short time later he heard what appeared to be another gunshot. After another short pause he heard rapid fire of what appears to be gunshots. He then heard a car taking off at super speed and it burned rubber and was squealing its tires as it sped along the road. He wasn’t sure of its direction of travel. He didn’t check as it was the Fourth of July and thought it was just somebody celebrating."
The fact George Bryant seemingly heard gunshots tends to negate the premise the weapon had a suppressor attached, the more reasonable suggestion being that Michael Mageau was temporarily deafened by the first gunshot so close to his head. http://www.zodiacciphers.com/blue-rock- … ttack.html

From what Bryant says It sounds like zodiac fired (1 round perhaps), fired again (1 round perhaps) then rapidly discharged the other 6 rounds in the clip…

Its difficult to sort through, and I kind of feel like a jerk going so far off topic in a Kane and Sullivan thread, I will likely find a better place to continue.

If I’m not mistaken Sullivan’s Father was living in Berkley just a touch over 20 miles from Vallejo. Santa Cruz is close enough to consider him a serious Zodiac suspect but Berkeley for sure puts him right in the mix.

Why did Ross and Kane leave behind enough evidence for people to figure out that they were murderers, surely something they would have liked to have kept a secret; while leaving behind no evidence at all that they ever knew each other, something that they would have no reason to hide?

Keep in mind that the answer to the first question is based on the ample evidence that they had connecting to the victims, which shows that any such lack of relationship evidence is not a problem except in this specific instance. There are also plenty of other people that we know that they knew, so it’s not like it can be said that they were loners in that sense.

Why did Ross and Kane leave behind enough evidence for people to figure out that they were murderers, surely something they would have liked to have kept a secret; while leaving behind no evidence at all that they ever knew each other, something that they would have no reason to hide?

Keep in mind that the answer to the first question is based on the ample evidence that they had connecting to the victims, which shows that any such lack of relationship evidence is not a problem except in this specific instance. There are also plenty of other people that we know that they knew, so it’s not like it can be said that they were loners in that sense.

I doubt they knew each other and it was Ross’s Brother Jon, not his Father, that lived in Berkeley. He did not live there during the Zodiac crimes, it was after. His other Brother Tim(the one who thought Ross was Zodiac)lived in SF