Hi-

One of the main problems with the theory is profiling. A top profiler, who consults with various police organizations and helps solve case 365 days a year as his "day job" (i.e., he knows what he is doing), says that Z was a power-assertive killer. This type of killer feels the need to brag about his crimes. So the behavior of Z at his murder scenes essentially predicts the need to communicate in some manner in order for the crime to "count." It is just that Z do so on a much larger scale than the power-assertive who confides to the bartender over a few shots of tequila that he has offed somebody. But the principle is the same.

Snook just happened to have chosen the correct string of murders to link together via the letters because all were committed by the same type of killer….and that this type of killer would also need to brag about his crimes.

Mike

Either I’ve completely lost my mind or there is a problem with the conclusions being put forth in this discussion. I do not see the connection between the letter writing stating what he did and a conspiracy. Are we saying that since Borges said she saw BLJ on her side and the police saw her face down, that somebody repositioned her body and then used Borges to confirm what he had done?

Even if that is true, how does that prove a conspiracy between multiple people? Couldn’t one Zodiac have done the same thing? I do not get it.

In this case, I guess Z walked to the crime scene? Or did he have to drive back after Borges left from some clandestine location? Getting complicated, right?

Mike

No, I think what we are doing is dismissing Horan’s hoax theory. One of Horan’s conclusions,is that when Zodiac wrote that she was "lying on her side feet to the west", he was lying, because the crime scene photos show Betty face down, so therefore, Zodiac must be lying, and wasnt really ever there at the scene. What he fails to realize,is that Borges, who found the bodis only seconds, or moments after the shots,clearly remembered and detailed Betty being "on her side" just as Zodiac stated. When Pitta got back to the scene, Betty was face down. I personally don’t think anybody re-positioned the body after Borges left to get help(I dont think anybody else here is saying that either), I think she simply,in the final stage of dying, fell over face first.

…I think she simply,in the final stage of dying, fell over face first.

I think this is what happened too. The term "dead weight" comes to mind.

OK, so this is being said to refute Horan’s claims. Since Borges actually did see BLJ lying on her right side feet to the west, this proves that before the cops arrived, that WAS her position. So Borges actually proves that the letter writer knew what BLJ’s initial position was and bolster’s the claim that the letter writer had actually been at the scene before police even arrived.

I can’t read Horan’s writings because they are too heavily laden with anger and sarcasm. Can’t wade through all that. So his position is that Z was misinformed in saying that BLJ was lying on her right side because the reports written by the police state that she was lying face down and the crime scene photo shows her lying face down. He needs Z to be wrong about "right side feet to west" because neither Hal nor Land actually committed that crime, so Hal has to NOT know what he is talking about in the letter when, in fact, the statement about her lying on her right side is actually accurate, thereby proving that the letter writer DOES know what her position actually was and thus proving that Hal didn’t write the letter because all he could have known is what is in the photos and reports.

Phew! Is that it?

But one question: If Hal had access to the police reports, why didn’t he get to see what Borges had observed? Did he somehow miss that?

Mike

OK, so this is being said to refute Horan’s claims. Since Borges actually did see BLJ lying on her right side feet to the west, this proves that before the cops arrived, that WAS her position. So Borges actually proves that the letter writer knew what BLJ’s initial position was and bolster’s the claim that the letter writer had actually been at the scene before police even arrived.

I can’t read Horan’s writings because they are too heavily laden with anger and sarcasm. Can’t wade through all that. So his position is that Z was misinformed in saying that BLJ was lying on her right side because the reports written by the police state that she was lying face down and the crime scene photo shows her lying face down. He needs Z to be wrong about "right side feet to west" because neither Hal nor Land actually committed that crime, so Hal has to NOT know what he is talking about in the letter when, in fact, the statement about her lying on her right side is actually accurate, thereby proving that the letter writer DOES know what her position actually was and thus proving that Hal didn’t write the letter because all he could have known is what is in the photos and reports.

Phew! Is that it?
But one question: If Hal had access to the police reports, why didn’t he get to see what Borges had observed? Did he somehow miss that?

Mike

yeah,thats it in a nutshell.

Another thing that is a whole separate issue,and also proves Horan’s theory is a hoax, is that he thinks Snook got his hands on Stine’s shirt in order to include a piece of it in one of the zodiac letters. Z mailed that letter including the shirt piece, like a day or two after Stine’s murder. that means, Snook(if he was a Zodiac hoax letter writer)would have had to go to SF, and got his hands on Stine’s shirt ( a case totally unconnected to him or Napa),and do all this within 24 hours. Snook would have ZERO reason to have access to Stine’s body,or his shirt, and for him to somehow get said access,all within time to mail the letter including Stine’s shirt,is simply not reasonable, or believable. Horan’s theory is easy to dismiss and disprove,and I swore I would stop wasting my time battling it, but it just makes me mad that Horan accuses good cops of being involved in something as low as hoaxing Zodiac letters,it simply is not real,it didnt happen, and anybody that buys his book is wasting their time and money.

The whole idea seems crazy but for some reason he’s had Voigt and others rabidly trying to disprove the things he says. An inter-agency conspiracy whereby someone at SFPD is providing Hal with pieces of Stine’s shirt? Why?

The whole problem with this conspiracy notion is that we know 44 years later that none of these crimes has been solved. But if they were merely unrelated murder scenes and even ONE of them had been solved at the time and that killer was in prison for one of the other crimes, the entire Z mythology would have fallen apart. Why would someone go through all this trouble when it could have fallen apart so easily? For instance, how did Hal Snook, criminal genius,know the day after a cabbie was murdered in SF for $8 that his killer would prove to be so elusive? What if it were a botch job with bloody fingerprints everywhere that matched a known criminal and was solved on October 15th? Or if some new latents would be discovered in the cab as they worked it more? That was IMO a risky crime to include in his series…And if Faraday was killed for talking about a drug deal and someone snitched out the drug dealer who had killed him, etc…

Mike

The whole idea seems crazy but for some reason he’s had Voigt and others rabidly trying to disprove the things he says.

Yessss…. "Why?" Mike. Well some of it is because Mr Horan’s been so rude and confrontational, including to our own dear host, which is regrettable. When he was merely "discussing" the matter equably he got very little reaction. (Well he did, he got derision!) Also, posting over on Mr Horan’s Hoax site will get you negative attention, verbal abuse and personal attacks, too. Playground stuff. Even discussing aspects of this theory makes some people (who appear anonymously – what have they got to lose?) – froth at the mouth. Curious!

An inter-agency conspiracy whereby someone at SFPD is providing Hal with pieces of Stine’s shirt? Why?

No, I don’t believe any such thing has been suggested. I think at this point the idea remains that professional courtesy would have allowed Hal Snook – and he wouldn’t have been the only one – access to the San Francisco Coroner’s Office. (The distinction’s important it seems.)
Why? Why steal the shirt to validate the letters you mean, or why perpetrate a hoax in the first place?

The whole problem with this conspiracy notion is that we know 44 years later that none of these crimes has been solved. But if they were merely unrelated murder scenes and even ONE of them had been solved at the time and that killer was in prison for one of the other crimes, the entire Z mythology would have fallen apart.

Yes, damnit., that’s true. It doesn’t reflect very well on the police forces of several distinct areas – or the SFPD – that there are murders still at large, does it? In fact if you look at the stats of the time, it’s pretty glum reading. Mind you, "Violent crime nearly quadrupled between 1960 and its peak in 1991", so….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
Having said that, Thomas Horan believes Hashem Zayed committed the Stine murder, and that SFPD are very much soft-pedalling on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinecrest_Diner
I wonder.
Motive? I also wonder. People get pleasure from hoaxes, it seems.
When DID the hoax fail? Sgt Radetich? Cheri Jo Bates?
And what if the hoax HAD failed at the time? If they’d arrested the Stine murderer in November 1970, say?
They still didn’t know who the writer was, so he’d still have no price to pay – except that his amusing little game would have ended. *shrug*

Why would someone go through all this trouble when it could have fallen apart so easily? For instance, how did Hal Snook, criminal genius,know the day after a cabbie was murdered in SF for $8 that his killer would prove to be so elusive?

Well yes, you were being sarcastic (and why not?), and it’s essentially the same question, but Has WAS a criminal genius, you know. He knew all about crime, forensics (a reasonably new science), the clear-up rates (for sure) and he was in a fantastic position to monkey around at Berryessa, with the physical evidence, interpretation of the footprints, the position of the car, everything. It’s a bit annoying that his handwriting’s not more of a perfect match, in my humble opinion.
Why go to so much trouble? What, writing the letters (that’s not a lot of work) or messing with physical evidence from two murder sites? (THAT’S the big question.) Well that’s the motive question again. Just pleasure? Trying to smear the Vallejo PD? Get SFPD to concentrate? Because he was an arrogant man, who wanted to show up the flat-foots from his lofty position as criminal scientist? Because he wanted the murderer at Berryessa (at least) to go scot-free?
I’m still wondering.

What if it were a botch job with bloody fingerprints everywhere that matched a known criminal and was solved on October 15th? Or if some new latents would be discovered in the cab as they worked it more? That was IMO a risky crime to include in his series…And if Faraday was killed for talking about a drug deal and someone snitched out the drug dealer who had killed him, etc…
Mike

The Stine murder WAS a botch job with bloody prints, and it was really risky to include it. Yes. That crime was the riskiest of them all.
LHR wasn’t risky. Six months on it was cold.
BRS was slightly risky but less so, since he knew the background, suspects and possibilities. (In fact at this point, he was maybe trying to finger Richard Hoffman – after all his spelling mistakes mirror Hoffman’s pretty well – or maybe that kid Andrew Yerasimos Nickolatos.)
Berryessa – well, he could make Berryessa a lot of fun for the investigators, couldn’t he…. I think he did. Footprints? Tire tracks? Door? Baloney.
Stine? Stine, yes indeed.
Why Stine? To distract from Berryessa? Because a new crime "in the series" was needed in a short timeframe to keep it all moving along, and beggars can’t be choosers? Because he wanted to change focus to San Francisco and that was the first one he knew something about? Because a "lovers lane" event wasn’t going to occur spontaneaously in SF, so anything with a "bloody" MO would have to do? Because he was visiting SFCO and had access to materials, so chose the best stuff he could get his hands on?
All good questions.

I don’t think we are wiping our collective asses with Horan’s theory because he’s been rude,but rather because it’s a bad theory. It’s easy to disprove,and I think I did it pretty well a few posts back. If you want to keep dumping the last bit of lighter fluid on Horan’s theory to keep it burning by saying, ‘Well, Snook, could have got the shirt from SFPD out of common courtesy to him as a fellow investigator", then that’s your right. I think most of us with common sense see the truth for what it is, a bad,wild, and simply unbelievable theory,which again,is easily dismissed. I hate even posting about his theory, but it’s like a car wreck that you can’t help but look at.

It’s nice that you bother to post about it Mike, I realise it’s not your cup of tea.
It was SFCO who had the shirt – that’s quiet important it seems – not SFPD, and no, I don’t expect it was handed over. I expect they were quite upset to have lost a big lump of it. Very embarrassing.

Can anyone tell me please….. what explanation is offered as to when this Hoaxer wrote on the car door? Thanks

Wier – not fair. You have to start at the beginning of the thread for that – and realise that’s a main reason why the title is "problems".

In fairness Smithy, it’s a little more than a "problem", it’s one of the things that make this theory untenable.

In fairness Smithy, it’s a little more than a "problem", it’s one of the things that make this theory untenable.

Wier – it’s THE basic problem which makes the theory difficult to countenance, in my humble opinion. Untenable’s a nice word, but not the one I’d choose.
I thought you were going to post a proposed solution. Damn!

Someone wrote on that door between the time the car was parked and the time Ray Land discovered it (or perhaps "discovered" it, if you prefer) at about 9:30pm. That guy knew enough detail to complete the message – ie, what day it was (doh!), the approximate time of the crime, and the fact that a knife was used. That’s it. Knowing the previous attack dates wasn’t all that clever. Or the symbol.

Someone wrote on that door between the time the car was parked and the time Ray Land discovered it

You mean Zodiac. Get off the fence and fly Smithy.

Someone wrote on that door between the time the car was parked and the time Ray Land discovered it

You mean Zodiac. Get off the fence and fly Smithy.

Trav! You rascal!