I wonder when the photo of the Ghia door and/or the full description of said door was first published…

The reason I bring this up is the "by knife" part of Z’s (if it was him) message in the Halloween card. As far as I can tell it was not mentioned in the papers that Z wrote "by knife" on the Ghia door. The description given stated that Z had written the dates of his attacks on the door and signed it with his symbol. But the "by knife" addendum to the LB time and date was not mentioned. And in an article in the Chronicle (Oct 1st, 1969) Capt. Townsend is quoted as saying: "There were a couple of other things [in addition to the details mentioned in the article, i.e. the dates and the symbol] we’re still holding back so we’ll be able to identify the man if he wants to call us again." It’s reasonable to assume that the "by knife" addendum was one such thing.

So, what’s the point? Well, if this "thing" was still held back a year later, it would seem that whoever wrote the Halloween card did not know that Z had used the exact phrase "by knife" at Berryessa.* Granted, it’s not a unique phrase – as Tahoe’s discovery here clearly proves – but it’s still…interesting.

I’ve always wondered about the "by knife" addendum at Berryessa. They were clearly stabbed, nobody would be mistaken about that – so why add this seemingly superfluous "clarification"?

This isn’t conclusive by any means, but one could say that IF the "by knife" detail was not published anywhere by 10-27-70, we can conclude that the phrase constitutes a connection between Z and the Halloween card which would not have been known to anyone who had simply followed the case in the papers.

Then again, the author could – of course – have chanced upon that phrase even if he wasn’t Z.

* Unless "whoever" was Z, that is. Or someone who had access to information which was held back at the time.

That makes sense. Usually it’s the simple things that join the dots.

I suppose a person can be stabbed with almost anything; a knife, a spoon (thinking of Henri Young in this instance), a screw driver, just about anything with enough force behind it and possibly a sharp edge (not sure that’s really required). I would think it was made public that the couple at LB was stabbed. I don’t know that it would really matter whether or not it was public knowledge it was a knife. I think most people, unless told otherwise, would automatically assume it was a knife. The only way I could see LE holding back on the weapon used is if, the weapon used, was something unique. Obviously knives come in all shapes, sizes and cutting edges. This would be useful in narrowing down the type of knife used and later relating it to a particular suspect. However, I just don’t see a knife as being something LE would hold back. I also don’t see the knife as being something to hang ones hat on as a possible clue that both the LB attack and the writer of the Halloween card were one in the same. I do like that you are questioning these small things as I really do think they lead not only to the way this killer thought but ultimately his capture.

I agree with Smithy in that a list should be made and votes taken. Perhaps where i might defer, as i have no desire to put words in Smithy’s mouth, is the oddity about all the various websites relating to the Zodiac in the, how do I describe, the non weighing in and elimination of things that are either unimportant, unrelated and just plain impossible. I think I am rather wishing that Zodiac websites took a more technical and investigative approach in that regard.

Soze

When we think of LB and "by knife" on the car door being withheld by LE, we know it would have been done so that the killer had something else to prove he was the guy–should he ever decide to call or write again.

So why wait until just over a year later to do it? There was no other reference to LB in the Halloween card.

Why not something like before…. "to prove I am the murderer at Lake Berryessa, here is something only I and the police know…"

A year later, lots of things could have been found out. It has even been suggested Paul Avery could have sent the HC card to himself–wouldn’t he have known about it by then? A far out suggestion to some, but nothing at this point would surprise me.

Avery would have known about "by knife" – that seems clear.

Just to clarify one or two points:

1. I don’t think LE attached any particular significance to the phrase itself. They only held it back as a means to incite more communications from Z (they wanted him to write again, providing more details, hopefully slipping up in some way) AND as a means to identify false confessors (a common problem). The fact that CS and BH were stabbed was never held back, so it wasn’t about that – it was just standard procedure, holding back some detail only the killer would know about.

2. If Z wrote the HC I don’t think he used the "by knife" phrase as a means to identify himself, that is as a response to LE’s invitation to provide more details about LB. Too much time had passed for that and Z had moved on to Stine and Belli and who knows what else in the meantime.

What I mean is that the phrase may have meant something to him. Perhaps he actually had a plan which involved all four "elements". He used it at LB and he used it in the HC. The connection is there if the phrase was not known by the public at the time. Only Z and someone with inside knowledge would have been aware of it being used at LB.

When I first started researching the Zodiac back in March/April 2010, any time I read the letters (which was always in succession), I would stop briefly at the point in time this crime would occur and reread everything on the Lake Berryessa attack. There wasn’t a letter, in the traditional sense, and I wanted to gain an overall feel for what the Zodiac may have been thinking (which I think is necessary in apprehension).

Every time I would get to the car door I would just stop and stare. My first, intial thought, was that the car door was that of a tombstone. But, even then, something was clearly off. It wasnt so much, what he said but, how he said it.

What do we really know about the Zodiac up to and including the act of stabbing Shepard and Hartnell ?

Well, in short:

He’s killed a number of people at this point. He has built a persona, lived the persona complete with symbol and hood, made the headlines, caused fear in the eyes of the public and has managed to outsmart the police.

It would appear that an image for himself, despite the fact that it is one of a killer, is what he’s after. I think that’s pretty telling about the emotional makeup of the man under the mask. Its as if he felt as though he and his life, up to the act of killing, was that of "nothing". Becoming the Zodiac was not really a choice for him. It was either kill or die himself. Animal instinct at its finest.

So when I think of this "image" he is creating for himself, the writing on the car door turns away from that of a tombstone towards that of, an historical marker.

With this car door he is letting you know who was there with the opening of the crosshair. He is bringing you up to date with everything thats occurred by mentioning the dates of Lake Herman and Blue Rock Springs, right down to providing you with the date and time of the LB event and, how they died by knife.

While most historical markers of tragedy are placed by those of compassion, the Zodiac appears to be robbing his victims yet again by, making his own. Its a tribute to himself and his accomplishments as a killer. In this sense, "by knife", is nothing more than a fact: they were attacked by knife and this is the date and time it occurred.

So I cant look at the "by knife" at LB in the same light as one would look at "by knife" in the HC. To me they are two separate things: emotion at LB and what would appear to be action in the HC.

However, even with that said, I am not so sure that the purpose of "by fire, by gun, by knife, by rope" in the HC is actually a revelation from the killer that he is following an organized pattern of killing. Sure it looks like that. Yes, you bet I think he wanted everyone to believe that. But is that really its purpose?

Given the rest of the card I cant bring myself to say that it is. Every last detail of that card is by design. To me they are like little puzzle pieces each with its own apparent meaning to him. Well what do puzzle pieces do? They connect to form an overall picture. In this light, I cant even look at the "by fire, by gun, by knife, by rope" as even an action. Its more like a purpose.

Soze

I had posted something, but I think I blacked out or lost in the middle of it all
Nothing new, just sharing !!!
Marcelo Leandro

Hello,
I found this interesting page of the magazine Red Ryder
"Daisy’s Red Ryder Gun Book"
http://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=32459
I think it speaks of markers cattle
in the 46 page !!
sharing
Marcelo.

Hello,
I found this interesting page of the magazine Red Ryder
"Daisy’s Red Ryder Gun Book"
http://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=32459
I think it speaks of markers cattle
in the 46 page !!
sharing
Marcelo.

There is a similar page in one of the Tim Holt comics as well. I am a firm believer all of his ciphers are livestock brands from a personal brand book he had…possibly from his father/grandfather etc….passed down. His written letters differ greatly from his cipher symbols which tells me he took a lot of time and care to get them just right. This is my reasoning for there being a meaning to each of the ciphers. I simply think they can’t be decoded without his personal brand book.

yes, Vasa Croe
  I also thought it may be a "code book" the Z13, Z32 and Z340, is if they will never be deciphered without the "key book", the connection with the magazines is very interesting in that sense, so I think this great finding of Tahoe is a start.
The connection with Indians and indigenous symbols are also very interesting
Marcelo

yes, Vasa Croe
  I also thought it may be a "code book" the Z13, Z32 and Z340, is if they will never be deciphered without the "key book", the connection with the magazines is very interesting in that sense, so I think this great finding of Tahoe is a start.
The connection with Indians and indigenous symbols are also very interesting
Marcelo

Not sure on the Indian connection other than name but positive there is a livestock brand connection….i have found too many for it not to be.

I had posted something, but I think I blacked out or lost in the middle of it all
Nothing new, just sharing !!!
Marcelo Leandro

WOW. Ok, I have never seen this, that is too close to be a coincidence, HOLY MOLY.

sorry if this has been covered, but what year are those red rider comics from?

There’s a thread around here someplace – I think it was 1953, but my memory isn’t what it was.
Re: brands used as 340 encryption characters, the cipher actually says:
"Cow, Cow, Cow, Cow…." (so on until the finish) then?
I’m not sure I’ve understood this.

That cow thread would be the one here, I think.

viewtopic.php?f=81&t=1882

-glurk