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REAL OR FAKE?

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BigMajestic
(@bigmajestic)
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In the Zodiac dvd bonus features criminal profiler Sarah Pagaling Hagan states the "Citizen" letter as the last Zodiac letter. The "Red Phantom" letter came 2 months later. She worked on the Zodiac case a couple of times for the CA DOJ. I thought I remember Mike R stating he was told one of the ’74 letters was a fake due to the dna not matching the others. Could this be the fake? Could Hagan be mistaken on the timeframe? Interesting.

 
Posted : May 12, 2015 5:41 am
Tahoe27
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I believe Mike R was also the one who talked to somebody who said a woman he knew wrote it. Of course it couldn’t be confirmed, but that is what he was told…if I’m not mistaken.

I don’t think it was a fake. I don’t think it was Zodiac, nor was it made to look like him or come off as him. I credit the envelope for any similarities. Just my take.


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : May 12, 2015 6:17 am
Paul_Averly
(@paul_averly)
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Real. And I have a theory on who wrote it:

viewtopic.php?f=106&t=2182

 
Posted : May 12, 2015 6:25 am
(@theforeigner)
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Special Agent Sharon Pagaling-Hagan’s Behavioral Profile of the Zodiac

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_85H2YwKXBk

Hi, english is not my first language so please bear with me :)

 
Posted : May 12, 2015 6:30 am
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
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Special Agent Sharon Pagaling-Hagan’s Behavioral Profile of the Zodiac

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_85H2YwKXBk

Thanks for posting the video TF. I wonder what she changed her mind about.


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : May 12, 2015 9:04 am
Norse
(@norse)
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I don’t think it was a fake. I don’t think it was Zodiac, nor was it made to look like him or come off as him. I credit the envelope for any similarities. Just my take.

I tend to agree.

But regardless, if the DNA story is true it would seem that Exorcist is the best candidate. The others are pretty subtle (too subtle) if they’re fakes.

 
Posted : May 12, 2015 4:47 pm
morf13
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I think that the citizen letter is definitely Z, and in many ways, lines up well with the Riverside desktop. I think all of the ‘confirmed’ Z letters are real Z letters.

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : May 12, 2015 5:07 pm
traveller1st
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I think it’s a fake … by Zodiac. ;)


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : May 13, 2015 4:28 am
Paul_Averly
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You guys that keep having a hard time believing established evidence might want to read stuff by Ray Grant. He believes in NONE of it!

http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/Ray%20Grant.htm

 
Posted : May 13, 2015 7:42 am
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
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None of it or every little piece of it. Same difference.


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : May 13, 2015 8:46 am
Norse
(@norse)
Posts: 1764
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You guys that keep having a hard time believing established evidence might want to read stuff by Ray Grant. He believes in NONE of it!

http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/Ray%20Grant.htm

Yes – point taken. Everything can be doubted – and if everything is doubted, we end up with nothing.

But in all fairness…there’s a difference between being critical and being paranoid.

Thing is, when it comes to these letters (the ’74 batch) we don’t know precisely why they were considered fishy in the first place. Well, Exorcist is obvious – but the others aren’t. Is it handwriting alone? Perhaps it isn’t even that – might be something else, that we don’t know about. It might even be that some of these letters were considered, for whatever reason, at one point – and then pretty much dropped. But they have survived nevertheless, as part of the evidence we know about.

Most of Z’s “confirmed” letters can be placed in a certain context – or they contain proof of some kind, or they follow immediately on a known crime…and then the printing comes on top of that. There is no reason to doubt those letters – and in my opinion that’s the point where critical ends and something else begins.

 
Posted : May 13, 2015 2:43 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
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You guys that keep having a hard time believing established evidence might want to read stuff by Ray Grant. He believes in NONE of it!

http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/Ray%20Grant.htm

Yes – point taken. Everything can be doubted – and if everything is doubted, we end up with nothing.

But in all fairness…there’s a difference between being critical and being paranoid.

Thing is, when it comes to these letters (the ’74 batch) we don’t know precisely why they were considered fishy in the first place. Well, Exorcist is obvious – but the others aren’t. Is it handwriting alone? Perhaps it isn’t even that – might be something else, that we don’t know about. It might even be that some of these letters were considered, for whatever reason, at one point – and then pretty much dropped. But they have survived nevertheless, as part of the evidence we know about.

Most of Z’s “confirmed” letters can be placed in a certain context – or they contain proof of some kind, or they follow immediately on a known crime…and then the printing comes on top of that. There is no reason to doubt those letters – and in my opinion that’s the point where critical ends and something else begins.

Yeah, that Exorcist letter to me screams Zodiac. The Capital T followed by lower case h, in the word The, we see the t & h connected at top. matches Z. The i with circle on top of it, the splitting of words, I have no doubt about it being real. You are correct, that’s the easiest one.

Let’s look at the others.

The Badlands letter has many matches for the Riverside desktop poem. The letter K in first line in word, ‘like’ is like the K Zodiac used previously. I too think this is a legit Z letter.

The Count Marco letter, not as obvious, but he makes long g & y tails, and drags them under the word to the left as Z did a lot. The issue is, that the letter is so stylistic & artistic, that it almost isn’t writing, but you can see the things there, and I think it’s Z. As far as one thing specifically, when comparing to my Suspect, Ross Sullivan, the P in the word Phantom matches writing in Ross’s SS application. Being I think it likely that Ross was Z, this does not surprise me.

The SLA letter for me is the toughest. I think Trav examine dit and found some things of interest. If I was to choose one of these as not being from Z, I would choose this one, but I leave it to the experts that examined it and found it to be legit.

I think it’s cool that they were closely watching & examining their mail all the way up to 1974.

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : May 13, 2015 4:06 pm
(@mike_r)
Posts: 838
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Hi-

Alan Keel said that there was matching DNA on the two forgeries, one being the 1978 letter and the other is from 1974. The only letter from 1974 that had been known to have been tested as per SFPD’s chart of the letters is the Exorcist letter. There is an old article I saw that said that Toschi may have forged the 1978 letter and one other. The one they showed in that article was the Exorcist letter. FWIW

Mike

Mike Rodelli

Author, The Hunt for Zodiac; 3.9 stars on Amazon and
In The Shadow of Mt. Diablo: The Shocking True Identity of the Zodiac Killer, a second edition in print format. 4.3 Amazon stars and great Editorial reviews. Twitter:@mikerodelli

 
Posted : May 13, 2015 4:34 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
Member Admin
 

Hi-

Alan Keel said that there was matching DNA on the two forgeries, one being the 1978 letter and the other is from 1974. The only letter from 1974 that had been known to have been tested as per SFPD’s chart of the letters is the Exorcist letter. There is an old article I saw that said that Toschi may have forged the 1978 letter and one other. The one they showed in that article was the Exorcist letter. FWIW

Mike

I highly doubt this one would be the fake, and short of seeing something official in print, would not accept this as a fake

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : May 13, 2015 4:57 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
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Here’s the 1974 SLA envelope, no wonder they spotted it as a Z letter, it wasn’t the letter it was the envelope!

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : May 13, 2015 6:39 pm
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