Zodiac Discussion Forum

Notifications
Clear all

The Red Phantom of 1969

18 Posts
10 Users
0 Likes
3,713 Views
(@ricardo)
Posts: 20
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

Discovered by Chris Y and first posted here by The Foreigner – the 1962 Count Marco column mentioning a Red Phantom.

This shows that Zodiac may have been a Count Marco fan as early as 1962, and if this is Zodiac calling Count Marco a "Red Phantom" in 1962, 12 years before the Zodiac used Red Phantom in the famous letter to Count Marco, it shows that Zodiac may have lived in Chicago in the early 1960’s – just like Ted Kaczynski. To my knowledge, Ted is the only major Zodiac suspect who lived in Chicago in the 1960’s.

AK:

Some very interesting observation from Kite, who read this column and recognized the writing as having similarities to both known Zodiac writing and known Ted Kaczynski writing.

KITE:

That’s absolutely unbelievable that RED PHANTOM was used previously in a Count Marco column, if I’m not mistaken. Is the term Red Phantom common enough to be found by chance in two articles like that or should we conclude that Zodiac, in all probability, read this 1962 letter? Did Zodiac write the 1962 letter? Did Zodiac write both the ’74 and ’62 letter? Did Zodiac write the ’74 letter and only read the ’62 letter, but was impressed by the reply? Is this not a major avenue of investigation–that Zodiac may have been in the Chicago area in 1962?

Note that in this article, the apparent advice of (seeing psychiatrists). And remember also, Zodiac used the word NASTY in the 1/29/74 note ("I will do something NASTY"), while here in 1962, the writer mentions (Nasty face).

[Ted Kaczynski also used this word in his letter to Ellen, "this nasty affair." – AK Wilks]

[The 1962 Count Marco "Red Phantom" writer said "Instead of sneaking up on women…, you should

Zodiac once wrote(….instead of holding road races with their motorcycles to see who could make the most noise, the car drivers should have…). Compare to the 1962 article.

KITE:

And look at the context of (sneaking up on women like a red phantom)[Very Zodiac like isn’t it – brings to mind the murder of Cheri Bates and Besty Aardsma – AK] .

An even more direct comparison than the one I used from a Zodiac letter above is:

Instead of encouraging your city to grow, you should realize how lucky you are to live in a small town.

That’s the 1970 Minnesota letter [to the newspaper editor] signed by Ted Kaczynski. Here in 1962:

Instead of sneaking up on women like a red phantom…., you should work openly and usefully…..

AK:

So the 1962 "Red Phantom", the Zodiac AND Ted Kaczynski all used a formulation, rather dictatorial, pedantic and teacher like, of "INSTEAD OF…YOU SHOULD…"

Some interesting observations from unazod posters tomc and kite.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what I posted so far? Pro or con? I find it quite interesting that both Zodiac and Kaczynski use the same formulation as the 1962 "red phantom" writer to the Count Marco column, the "instead of…you should" sentence! And I find it interesting that Kaczynski is the only major Zodiac suspect who lived in Chicago in the early 1960’s. Maybe nobody else does?

———————————————————-

TOMC:

I went back to the microfilm of the San Francisco Chronicle in June-July, 1974, to check Count Marco’s column. Count Marco (Mark Spinelli) wrote a woman’s advice column for the paper, which appeared in the "Society" pages Monday through Friday. His columns could be outrageous, and readers had a love/hate relationship with them. I wanted to see what might have triggered the Zodiac to send the "Red Phantom (red with rage)" letter. The letter was postmarked "July 8", a Monday, and sent from San Rafael, CA.

The letter reads: "Editor—Put Marco back in the hell-hole from whence it came—he has a serious psychological disorder—always needs to feel superior. I suggest you refer him to a shrink. Meanwhile, cancel the Count Marco column. Since the Count can write anonymously, so can I ——the Red Phantom (red with rage)"

Beginning with the June 17th column, for the next 2 1/2 weeks Count Marco’s column covered issues ranging from hats to girls as slobs and apple pie. Then, on July 3rd, a Wednesday, his column dealt with psychiatrists and psychologists. It concluded with the lines "You don’t need psychiatry. All you need is the Count Marco column." On the 4th and 5th, the column’s covered "Is Being Called Sexy Degrading" and "Swinging In Marriage".

However, the July 8 column, the date of the postmark, was titled "Why Older Men Have Trouble In Bed"–discussing male impotency in men over 40. (Kaczynski would have been 32 at the time.) Was this the triggering column that so enraged Zodiac, that he mailed the Red Phantom letter? And why?

Consider the following items.

1) Kaczynski, when he had his "turning point" in 1966, writes that at the time, he "wanted to kill that psychiatrist and anyone else whom I hate."

2) In the July 3, 1974 column, Count Marco equates his advice with the level of a psychiatrist, only better that a psychiatrist.

3) In his autobiographical journal, Kaczynski states that when he developed his plan to work 2 years (at Berkeley) to save money to move to the wilderness, he would have to keep himself from reading newspapers. He says, if "I read papers regularly I would build up too much tense and frustrated anger against politicians, dictators, businessmen, scientists, communists, and others in the world who were doing things that endangered me or changed the world in ways I resented." Reading papers, in his own words, could produce a rage in him.

4) The June 12, 1970 letter to the Brainerd (MN) Daily Dispatch, shows Kaczynski could respond with a letter to a newspaper after reading some article that had triggered a response in him.

5) Kaczynski was no stranger to sexual frustration. From the 1966 psychiatrist episode, it was sexual frustration that triggered his desire to kill.

Did Count Marco, in these 2 columns dealing with psychiatry and impotence, combine to trigger the enraged Zodiac to write the "Red Phantom" letter? An enraged Zodiac because he knew years of sexual frustration, hated psychiatrists, could be easily angered by what he read in a newspaper, and had a history of writing letters to newspapers?

I think this provides some decent clues to who the Zodiac was/is, and why the Red Phantom letter was written and sent

There was a letter from the Red Phantom printed in the San Francisco Sunday Examiner and Chronicle on January 12, 1969.

For anyone who is interested, here is a link to my report about it:

Project MK-ZODIAC

The Red Phantom of 1969

http://mk-zodiac.com/RedPhantom1969.html

 
Posted : August 3, 2015 2:53 pm
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
Posts: 5315
Member Moderator
 

Thanks again for sharing Ricardo.

If this was written by the same person who wrote the Count Marco Letter in July, it strengthens my belief it was not written by Zodiac. I am sure for those who are confident it was, it will somehow bolster theirs.


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : August 3, 2015 7:16 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
Member Admin
 

Ricardo, I will check out the article on your site later today. In the meantime, I know that Marco was syndicated, is there a way to tell where that particular letter to Marco was mailed from?

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : August 3, 2015 7:26 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
Member Admin
 

Also, is this article in some way a repeat of an earlier article? Here was that very similar 1962 Article that ran

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : August 3, 2015 7:30 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
Member Admin
 

Here’s a side by side of the 1962 article, compared to the one Ricardo posted. They have to be in some way, the same letter,although one has more words, and one is signed ‘Chicago’ and the other, ‘Happily Married’. Additionally, Marco responds to them both differently. I guess what I am asking is, why different versions,different signatures, & different responses, 7 years apart?

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : August 3, 2015 7:35 pm
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
Posts: 5315
Member Moderator
 

Sounds like he really pissed someone of as early as 1962 and the anger remained.


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : August 3, 2015 8:33 pm
Norse
(@norse)
Posts: 1764
Noble Member
 

It wasn’t uncommon for columnists of this kind to re-use material. If you wade through the history of certain agony aunts, you may find the same questions and problems, formulated in pretty much exactly the same way, popping up again and again over the years.

Of course, Count Marco wasn’t as much an agony aunt as a parody of one, but still – it’s the same formula, more or less. Perhaps the "Clu Clucks" part was added by Marco himself in 1969 for effect (making the writer sound less sophisticated).

Anyway, taken at face value, the writer has a problem with Marco’s anonymity – there’s an implication that he’s a misogynistic a*****e hiding behind a pseudonym, a pathetic creature like the phantom (presumably of the opera) the writer uses metaphorically.

The ’74 letter contains much of the same, including the explicit reference to his anonymity. However, the ’74 writer signs as the phantom (which doesn’t really jibe with the first letter, in which the phantom is clearly meant to represent Marco, and not in a favorable way).

Hard to say – for my money none of the letters smack of Z at all. Certainly not on the surface level, at least.

 
Posted : August 3, 2015 9:50 pm
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
Posts: 5315
Member Moderator
 

"Clu Clucks"…if it walks like a duck…


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : August 3, 2015 10:04 pm
Norse
(@norse)
Posts: 1764
Noble Member
 

Should have gone for "Clew Clucks Clan" if you ask me…

On a slightly more serious note, it’s pretty common for people to refer to the KKK as "Klu Klux Klan" or Klu Kux Klan" and so on. Seashells by the sea shore.

 
Posted : August 3, 2015 10:51 pm
BDHolland
(@peaceandlove)
Posts: 608
Honorable Member
 

Discovered by Chris Y and first posted here by The Foreigner – the 1962 Count Marco column mentioning a Red Phantom.

This shows that Zodiac may have been a Count Marco fan as early as 1962, and if this is Zodiac calling Count Marco a "Red Phantom" in 1962, 12 years before the Zodiac used Red Phantom in the famous letter to Count Marco, it shows that Zodiac may have lived in Chicago in the early 1960’s – just like Ted Kaczynski. To my knowledge, Ted is the only major Zodiac suspect who lived in Chicago in the 1960’s.

Great find.

www.zodiachalloweencard.com has a 400 paged book for free containing the super solution with an overarching explanation of the cards and more.

 
Posted : September 4, 2020 9:22 am
(@tomvoigt)
Posts: 1352
Noble Member
 
 
Posted : September 4, 2020 9:37 am
greenglow2
(@greenglow2)
Posts: 7
Active Member
 

Per Red Phantom and "Count" I think Zodiac Killer is talking about vampires and Jack the Ripper

Those Newspaper columns were probably intelligence, trying to incite more letters from Zodiac; they think Zodiac Killer reads the Newspaper then they wrote some things in the newspaper: notice they are about women and murder sort of…

this is good stuff

 
Posted : September 13, 2020 1:03 am
(@eggs-n-bacon)
Posts: 103
Estimable Member
 

This is a great find from a few years ago, was the writer of the zodiac correspondence in the Chicago area in the early 1960s? The san Francisco chronicle count Marco colum on July 8th 1974 entitled “why older men have trouble in bed” discussing mail impotency in men over 40 years old could have triggered/compelled the zodiac writer to send in the 1974 red phantom letter? As ted k is mentioned in this thread it’s also worth mentioning Frederic manalli who would have been over 40 when this spinelli column came out in the chronicle and also Fred had ties to Chicago/Illinois when the 1st red phantom appeared in 62!

 
Posted : January 2, 2021 10:02 pm
(@eggs-n-bacon)
Posts: 103
Estimable Member
 

Just to add I think the grimes sisters double murder was an early zodiac crime, the way the girls bodies were found stacked on top of each other( domingos and edwards) and the eerie phone calls to the girls mother after their bodies were found. The man on the other end of the phone said “I was the one who undressed your girls”

 
Posted : January 2, 2021 10:17 pm
ConcernedCitizen
(@concernedcitizen)
Posts: 95
Trusted Member
 

Just to add I think the grimes sisters double murder was an early zodiac crime, the way the girls bodies were found stacked on top of each other( domingos and edwards) and the eerie phone calls to the girls mother after their bodies were found. The man on the other end of the phone said “I was the one who undressed your girls”

Do you really characterize the one girl’s body laying over her sister’s head as "stacked on top of each other"?

Not exactly "stacked" in the manner of Domingos and Edwards, is it?

More like dumped over the guard rail and left where they landed…

 
Posted : January 3, 2021 3:02 am
Page 1 / 2
Share: