Ok,

this part of the forum WAS AND STILL IS about the pencil flashlight, and not about the order of shots that hit Betty Lou.

However I think it is solved, thanks to our great Ace Ventura. Pencil flashlights obviously had existed at that time, possibly Z had his from a cop or he even was a cop by himself. Thanks also for the hint with the different weapon.

QT

Using a light on a gun is as old as the hills. Raccoon, rabbit, night prey hunters have used them for years. A pencil flashlight not very worthy unless in absolute darkness. I wonder if Z left his lights on, as he did at BRS, if in the LHR case he would have needed any light at all. Betty Lou would have been running away from the back end of Z’s car, taillights alone probably helped greatly. He probably figured that a light in one hand and pistol in the other was far more efficient.

I’d say, whether or not he used one it is something that is possible or he wouldn’t mention how it works…just to be proven wrong and a fool.

Using a light on a gun is as old as the hills. Raccoon, rabbit, night prey hunters have used them for years. A pencil flashlight not very worthy unless in absolute darkness. I wonder if Z left his lights on, as he did at BRS, if in the LHR case he would have needed any light at all. Betty Lou would have been running away from the back end of Z’s car, taillights alone probably helped greatly. He probably figured that a light in one hand and pistol in the other was far more efficient.

Or His HEADLIGHTS,if you,like me, think Z may have been backed in

Since the Rambler passenger door was open, I wonder how much light was shed from the dome light?
I miss Bentley on these occasions…..

I was watching "Escape from Alcatraz" w/Clint Eastwood, and while they were escaping one of the guy says something like "I’ll use my pen light"…lol. Was darn bright too.

I still find it hard to believe Zodiac was parked next to their car with all those bullet casings lying around.

I still find it hard to believe Zodiac was parked next to their car with all those bullet casings lying around.

I agree Tahoe, seems like it doesnt line up with what James Owen said he saw when he drove by. But why would he lie?

Odd, ain’t it.
I’m also puzzled by the fact that the cartridge case positions don’t seem to match the "lying on her right side" sketch at all.

The perspective of the photo as opposed to the drawing seems off. It looks like the car was much further from the fence in the photo than in the drawing. I think the shell casings are generally in the same position in both though. The shell casings appear to leave little room for another car to be parked where Owens claimed unless the car was pulled in when Owens saw it and then backed up before the shooting began.

The perspective of the photo as opposed to the drawing seems off. It looks like the car was much further from the fence in the photo than in the drawing. I think the shell casings are generally in the same position in both though. The shell casings appear to leave little room for another car to be parked where Owens claimed unless the car was pulled in when Owens saw it and then backed up before the shooting began.

My theory (hard to prove without re-enacting)is that Zodiac backed in from the start, and got out of his car. Faraday sensing danger,started his car or something,and Z jumped out of his car brandishing the gun. Z may have fired a warning shot in the air or into Dave’s car to let him know he meant business. That’s the only way I can account for that stray shell casing all the way off from the others. If Z was backed in,and exited his car thru the driver’s side, and fired a shot when he got out, that casing would be right around where it was found. Then Z walked around,as Dave startled and scared turned the car off,and he did the rest of the shooting where we see the rest of the shells. This would also explain how Zodiac easily avoided backing over either victim upon leaving. Backing in makes perfect sense,Z would be able to see oncoming headlights,and if something went wrong,he could easily pull out fast. To accept this scenario,Owen has to be lying, and if he is, he is Zodiac,which is another reason he is my top suspect,that and the fact he is the ONLY person confirmed to be there at the scene AFTER the kids were last seen alive,and BEFORE they were found dead. He had multiple inconsistencies in his statements to police, he owned multiple guns,he was retired Air Force(wingWalkers),he was within the age range of the SFPD sketch of Zodiac. For these reasons, he should have been finger printed and then asked to give writing samples. Not only did he not give prints or writing,but they actually allowed him to question possible witnesses and report back to them on what he found. I personally think this is a very big flaw in the LHR investigation. Owen was asked to hand over a gun for ballistics tests,but of course, he handed over a rifle,and a rifle wasnt even used. To me,this would also explain why Zodiac didnt attack again,or write a letter about his attack until 7 months later,until he felt safe, and that he no longer was suspected.

I could be wrong about Owen, but police should have properly ruled him out,and addressed the things I just mentioned.

I still find it hard to believe Zodiac was parked next to their car with all those bullet casings lying around.

I agree Tahoe, seems like it doesnt line up with what James Owen said he saw when he drove by. But why would he lie?

Just to play devil’s advocate, maybe Owen wasn’t deliberately lying but merely mistaken in his recollection of the position of the second vehicle. We know that eye witness testimony has been shown to be very unreliable. And in fairness, he would have only driven past the area and allowed himself a glance at the entrance and the two cars for a matter of seconds and at the time there would have been no reason for him to remember this or the specifics.

But, having said that, I do agree that his account seems inconsistent at best. Is he deliberately lying, or just recalling what he saw incorrectly?

I still find it hard to believe Zodiac was parked next to their car with all those bullet casings lying around.

I agree Tahoe, seems like it doesnt line up with what James Owen said he saw when he drove by. But why would he lie?

Just to play devil’s advocate, maybe Owen wasn’t deliberately lying but merely mistaken in his recollection of the position of the second vehicle. We know that eye witness testimony has been shown to be very unreliable. And in fairness, he would have only driven past the area and allowed himself a glance at the entrance and the two cars for a matter of seconds and at the time there would have been no reason for him to remember this or the specifics.

But, having said that, I do agree that his account seems inconsistent at best. Is he deliberately lying, or just recalling what he saw incorrectly?

The difference in the distance between the two cars could be explained as an honest mistake, not paying attention, etc,however, the difference between 3-4 feet & 10 feet (as we see him state in two diff reports)is major. One of the statements would totally clash with the scene evidence. For me, the biggest problem or inconsistency by him is his lack of telling the police on 12/21/68, 9 hours after the attack, that he thought he heard a shot after he went by. He was standing at the scene of the crime with chalk outlines on the ground but he doesnt remember to mentiona gunshot? Then he suddenly remembers it 3 days later in his 2nd statement? I just cant buy it.

Good discussion about the casings, bullet trajectories and body positions and possible attack scenarios here.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/discus/mess … 1169268360

"The difference in the distance between the two cars could be explained as an honest mistake, not paying attention, etc,however, the difference between 3-4 feet & 10 feet (as we see him state in two diff reports)is major. One of the statements would totally clash with the scene evidence. For me, the biggest problem or inconsistency by him is his lack of telling the police on 12/21/68, 9 hours after the attack, that he thought he heard a shot after he went by. He was standing at the scene of the crime with chalk outlines on the ground but he doesnt remember to mentiona gunshot? Then he suddenly remembers it 3 days later in his 2nd statement? I just cant buy it."

One of the statements he makes that did make me raise an eyebrow was that when he drove past and the two vehicles were apparently parked in the entrance area, nobody was visible in either vehicle, nor was anybody out in or around the gravel turn in area itself outside of the vehicle’s. Well if Zodiac was on scene at this point, where were the two victims? Had he ordered Faraday out was about to shoot when he noticed lights approaching and told David to ‘get down’ and ordered Betty to duck down also? I would think that it would look far more suspicious driving past seeing two vehicles parked there, at least one with it’s light’s on, and nobody in sight anywhere. And If Owen really did hear a gunshot shortly after passing, then assuming that what most people assume happened actually did happen, that being that Z shot David once in the head, which cause Betty to instinctively run for her life, then Owen should have reported hearing a single shot, two or three seconds gap, then 5 shots in fairly rapid succession.
I mean If you see what appears to be two abandoned vehicles, or at least vehicles that have no occupants visible or near them, followed shortly after by the sound of a gun shot, wouldn’t that make you question if all was not well back at that turning?