Hi Moonraker. Allen was ruled out by writing. But even more powerful and invaluable, he was ruled out via DNA that didn’t match DNA taken from under a stamp on a Zodiac letter, and his palm print didn’t match a palm print taken off a zodiac letter. In this case, similarities,coincidences,etc abound. Allen had some interesting things that made him look guilty no doubt, and some of that, he brought on himself. But what didn’t match or link him is what counts

Allen carried guilt with him, the kind he couldn’t shake, he was a pedophile. Bawalt sure thought he was Z, and when VPD got to investigate Allen’s Basement, they found a lot of stuff that definitely incriminated him further. But was he Z? I doubt it…..

I appreciate that you seem to have kept an open mind moonraker. One thing that I used to always point out to people is just what exactly circumstantial evidence is.

The two types of evidence are direct evidence; pretty straight forward, and circumstantial evidence. Direct evidence is considered eye witness accounts, and forensic evidence.

Circumstantial evidence is something that indirectly connects a person to a crime. It’s harder to define and might contain things that wouldn’t really be considered as evidence from a scientific standpoint. Probably the best example would be a suspect who was known to have said, "I’m going to kill you!" to the victim before they died. In the Bates case a watch with some paint splatter and a broken band was found at the crime scene. Some circumstantial evidence there would be a suspect that had paint splatter, was known to be missing a watch, had scratches or a hand injury, etc.

The reason I point this out is because a lot of things that people cite as circumstantial evidence do not qualify. For instance Allen’s Zodiac watch is not. Why not? Because a watch was not known to have anything to do with the crimes. You could argue that a Zodiac connection was enough, but that’s kind of a gray area. I would say that a handwriting match would qualify as circumstantial evidence. That would be very good evidence, but it would still have a pretty low threshold in actually obtaining a conviction in a court case. Got it?

For your questions:
1. Allen told police that he was planning on doing some diving near Lake Berryessa, the site of a Zodiac murder. But he said that it was not on the day of the murder and that he changed his mind and didn’t go. We have no way of confirming whether that is true or not. I don’t have any knowledge of any victims found at sites that he was known to have been at, or about any squirrel hairs. I guess the important thing here is that there were no squirrel hairs found on any of the Zodiac victims.

2. There was no hidden road. I don’t know how else to say it. Allen lived on Fresno street. There’s no road there straight to LHR. Google it. No one has ever produced any evidence of such a road existing. What is he Batman? How do you have a secret road from your backyard running straight through the middle of town that no on knows about?

3. According to the police report, Allen wrote "X Mas". He didn’t write "Christ mass", that was from the movie.

4. He didn’t have Wing Walker boots. That was also made up for the movie.

5. Allen’s handwriting doesn’t match. So what? It doesn’t matter if he can fake it or not, the point is that it’s not evidence. So the question is, unless someone is already convinced that Allen is guilty why would they use non evidence against him? Just so they can explain why they want to ignore what they don’t like. You know that is bad thinking.

6. Again the composite doesn’t look like Allen. You’re saying that if they didn’t get a good look at the guy, they were more likely to describe a guy who doesn’t look like Allen? Why? Bryan Hartnell saw and talked to Allen and said he didn’t think he was the Zodiac. Officer Fouke drove right by him and maybe talked to him and he said that Allen wasn’t the guy.

7. He didn’t have a car like the Zodiac. His ex friend Phil Tucker had a Chevy Corviar, one of the cars described. He said that he thought Allen might have borrowed it when he took it in for repair at the garage Allen worked at. Police checked it out and found that Allen was not employed there at the time the car was there.

Allen did tell police that he had bloody knives in his car. First of all Zodiac used one knife, singular, so why would be multiple bloody knives? He was standing right next to a lake, why would he not wash the blood off? Most importantly, no one ever saw these knives so it doesn’t matter anyway. Robert Graysmith said that Allen told his sister in law that he had the bloody knives, which she didn’t tell police or have any record of having said that.

He did have pipe bombs in his house, but that was 20 years later and not the type of bomb that was described by the Zodiac, so what does that have to do with anything?

Don Cheney is full of crap, just go read the things that he has said and you can’t possibly believe that he is telling the truth. He thought that Allen molested his daughter and he wanted to get his revenge, simple as that.

By all accounts Allen had the Zodiac watch before the murders.

Which do you think is more likely: Cheney saw that Allen had a watch that said Zodiac on it, he hated the guy, and so he told police that he was the killer and made up the rest?

OR, Allen named himself the Zodiac Killer after the watch that everyone saw him wearing, he got away with 5 murders with no evidence against him, even though he was dumb enough to confess everything to a guy who hated him, and that guy just waited until years later to tell police about it?

Moon…..

When I say I doubt ALA was Z, I’m saying that as I would about any one person. I’ve always liked Kane, but I have less info connecting Kane then what I’ve read connecting Allen. It’s the SF ID where I see a real problem with Allen. The composite came from the kids, but was verified by Fouke. The kids had the longer look at Z, but most of that time they wouldn’t be able to see his face, and Fouke along with driving only had about 7 secs. tops to look at Z’s face, unless Fouke did stop and speak with Z. If they did speak with Z, Zelms would have had the better look. One thing about Hartnell visiting ALA’s workplace and getting him in a conservation. If it took place that way, the way the movie portrayed it, I would think as soon as ALA (if he were Z), saw Hartnell he would immediately recognize him, and know what’s up. He would simply fake his voice.

BayArea60s

Wonder why SFPD never took Fouke to see Allen?

Maybe they did? But you have a witness in LE who can easily identify him. He probably still could. It seems no one ever asked Fouke. Odd. Maybe I missed something

Hello everyone,

First of all, thanks for posting some reactions! Helpfull!

I”ll start with a general reaction;
I know there is also a lot that ruled ALA out as a suspect. We shouldn’t forget that.
But still it kept me occupied, how in the hell did someone (in case he is not guilty) got so much incriminating things against him.
Thats just odd. Offcourse there are numerous cases where a person is in the wrong place at the wrong time, and gets falsely convicted, but this is a lot. Or is it that LE just dug deep in ALA’s life and threw anything deviant on a pile for later on to make it stick with the image LE had of him? Intresting…

Now I know some of you already lifted the possibility that ALA might have done this on purpose, to make him look more dangerous than just the deviant guy/convicted child molester from the neighbourhood. I also thought to have read in the yellow book that ALA told some fellow inmates he was connected to the Zodiac murders. But as the comment of duckking2001 have shown me, I should not rely on that too much either.

Either way, ALA was a very intresting person. Maybe also because he, unlike Ross Sullivan, Richard Gaikowski, Larry Kane, has been truly, ”proper” investigated. In LE terms that is. I mean at least to my knowledge, LE has never been in their basements. Maybe with the same LE treatment ALA got, the men mentioned above, would look even better than ALA.

Now to duckking2001;

1.Maybe Seagull could help me with this question. I also thought it had something to do with the Santa Rosa Hitchhike Murders(?)
I’m familliar with the story of ALA going LB, but changed his mind while on his way, but its not what I meant.
There’s a certain piece in the yellow book (I looked again, couldnt find it, so you still owe me this one) that some LE officers patrolled somewhere in the Bay Area
Where some bodies have been found and they walked straight into ALA with his scuba gear.
Now youre right about the squirrel hairs found on the bodies had nothing to do with the Z killings, though (again) it puts ALA in a very different light.

2. I looked it up, I even heared someone debunk this very well on a forum, but why the hell would Graysmith place something so weird in his book?
Like, this could have been properly debunked back in 1986 withthe help of a simple map. It’s a clear lie in the open..

3. Damn it Fincher..!

4. *throws the movie out the window*

5. I understand. I only meant to say people are pointing towards handwriting far too often (to in or exclude). Especially with ALA.

6. A little bit of the same as the above; I remember reading that LE never really where fond of the Stine sketch, because of the conditions the teenagers saw him in.
Also this has nothing directly to do with ALA, but sometimes I really wonder if the sketch was that detailled. I know you can’t just overthrow all ”lead points” overboard,
but also here it’s not a smoking gun or something. Such a shame Mike Mageau didn”t get a better look at him.

7. Okay, my bad!

Thanks again for responding this quick to a long post like mine haha.

Moonraker

Moonraker, I think the supposed secret road was Franz Valley Road where the remains of three of the SRHM were found. The first two, Weber and Sterling went missing in Feb. 1972 and were found as skeletal remains at the end of Dec. 1972.

The third victim Davis went missing mid July 1973 and was found at the end of July 1973 in an advanced state of decomposition. This road is very rural and woodsy.

Page 244 of Zodiac Unmasked discusses chipmunk hairs saying that chipmunk hairs were on all of the bodies of the SRHM victims. ALA had dead chipmunks in his freezer when his property was searched.

First of all, the SRHM victims were all found in very rural areas where chipmunks are common. Two of the victims were skeletal remains, one was found submerged in a rushing creek. Also the Jane Doe who Graysmith insists is Jeannette Kamahele though it’s never been proven , in fact the dentals didn’t match simply because Kamahele wore a partial and Jane Doe had all her teeth, was found as skeletal remains. So that’s four of the eight, though Graysmith claims seven, SRHM victims who couldn’t possibly have been found with chipmunk hairs on their bodies. You throw in Kamahele who has never been found and that makes five of the eight with no chipmunk hairs! That leaves Allen, Kursa and Davis who could have possibly had chipmunk hairs on their bodies which were dumped in rural, woodsy areas where chipmunks were common.

The chipmunk hairs are a red herring made up by Graysmith.