PH witnesses had him at 5-8—-5-10 and around 200 lbs.–stocky.

That’s the problem, these descriptions are all over. Normally, I would say Bryan would be the best witness since he was standing close to Z for a while, but his extreme height, made it hard for him to estimate Zodiac’s height. The Kids that saw Z were looking down from an upstairs window across the street, how could they accurately determine height?

Fouke said 5-10, I believe. The kids, who were looking down at him from upstairs, said 5-8 or 5-9. Bryan was looking up at him most of the time, after the tying up process began. Anyway, those heights are all in the same ball park.

Fouke said 5-10, I believe. The kids, who were looking down at him from upstairs, said 5-8 or 5-9. Bryan was looking up at him most of the time, after the tying up process began. Anyway, those heights are all in the same ball park.

See my post in the Berryrssa section, when Rangers reached Bryan, he felt he wasn’t going to make it and wanted to relay a description of the attacker and described him as a "big guy, 6 foot or better, over 200lbs", and this is immediately after the fact

Cecilia Shepherd also gave a ht. and wt. estimate to David Collins at Lake Berryessa. She said one or two inches taller than Collins, who was 5-10, and at least 25-30 lbs. heavier than Collins, who was 170 lbs. So that would make the Zodiac 5-11 to 6-0, and at least 195-200. Out of all the estimates the only guy who had a job where accurate estimate of ht. and wt. and everything else came into play was Donald Fouke, who said 5-10 and 180- 200 lbs., stocky. But then again, it’s not 100% certain the guy Fouke saw was the Zodiac. It is 100% certain the guy Bryan and Cecilia saw was the Z, since he stabbed the hell out of them. I think the fact he had the hood on most of the time could well have made him seem taller to them, however.

Cecilia Shepherd also gave a ht. and wt. estimate to David Collins at Lake Berryessa. She said one or two inches taller than Collins, who was 5-10, and at least 25-30 lbs. heavier than Collins, who was 170 lbs. So that would make the Zodiac 5-11 to 6-0, and at least 195-200. Out of all the estimates the only guy who had a job where accurate estimate of ht. and wt. and everything else came into play was Donald Fouke, who said 5-10 and 180- 200 lbs., stocky. But then again, it’s not 100% certain the guy Fouke saw was the Zodiac. It is 100% certain the guy Bryan and Cecilia saw was the Z, since he stabbed the hell out of them. I think the fact he had the hood on most of the time could well have made him seem taller to them, however.

Problem is, Collins mentioned NONE of that in his report at the time(trust me, I went thru that with the aspect of whether Z was wearing glasses or not under the hood)

This is the ONLY detailed info in the report about what Cecelia saw, nothing about height or weight,only about glasses

Given his posting history, it’s obvious that EndOfTheWorld is trying to throw out Hartnell and Mageau’s description of their attacker because it is at odds with his dearly-held belief that Ted Kacynski is the Zodiac Killer. This kind of dismissive thinking is common among researchers whose pet suspects and theories tend to be disproved by the evidence.

Given his posting history, it’s obvious that EndOfTheWorld is trying to throw out Hartnell and Mageau’s description of their attacker because it is at odds with his dearly-held belief that Ted Kacynski is the Zodiac Killer. This kind of dismissive thinking is common among researchers whose pet suspects and theories tend to be disproved by the evidence.

I’m glad you said it. We see it all the time. Twist the evidence to fit the suspect, and be overly dismissive even when an alternative suspect is a good fit.

Hi-

The height weight issue us not as cut and dried as one might think. Lindsey Robbins had a long look at Z and completely laughed off the possibility that Allen, who was in that 230 range, was even possibly the man he saw. Fouke was able to describe Z pretty well and he got all flustered for the only time during the hour or more we spoke to him when Jim and I asked him about Allen, calling him "way out of proportion." So to say Z was a "big guy" because of Berryessa is not as simplistic as you think. And if Bryan had second thoughts (as Jake’s post says he did), it might be interesting to find that interview (assuming Jake was correct) and hear if he explained why he had those second thoughts…

Mike

(1) Who is Lindsey Robbins? (2) David Collins talks about it on the movie "This is the Zodiac Speaking". He says he knows that’s what Cecilia said because he took notes. Cops are not perfect and he didn’t put it in his report. The other report above is from a Mrs. somebody, not Collins, whose name would not be redacted in a report. Anyway that estimate by Cecilia puts the Z right at the middle of the other estimates—about 5-11 or 6-0 and about 195-200 lbs. I think it’s possible that the extra inch or two put on by Cecilia and Bryan compared to the other estimates might be due to the hood. (3) Yes, I think (I don’t know) that TK was the Zodiac. But since you bring it up, people gain and lose weight at different times in their lives, and I wonder if it’s possible TK got a little heavier around the time of the Z killings. If not, then yes, it’s possible he wore extra clothing to dispose of the bloody outer layer or simply for disguise. He used disguise and subterfuge as the Unabomber.

(1) Who is Lindsey Robbins? (2) David Collins talks about it on the movie "This is the Zodiac Speaking". He says he knows that’s what Cecilia said because he took notes. Cops are not perfect and he didn’t put it in his report. The other report above is from a Mrs. somebody, not Collins, whose name would not be redacted in a report. Anyway that estimate by Cecilia puts the Z right at the middle of the other estimates—about 5-11 or 6-0 and about 195-200 lbs. I think it’s possible that the extra inch or two put on by Cecilia and Bryan compared to the other estimates might be due to the hood. (3) Yes, I think (I don’t know) that TK was the Zodiac. But since you bring it up, people gain and lose weight at different times in their lives, and I wonder if it’s possible TK got a little heavier around the time of the Z killings. If not, then yes, it’s possible he wore extra clothing to dispose of the bloody outer layer or simply for disguise. He used disguise and subterfuge as the Unabomber.

Lindsey Robbins is one of the teenagers who lived in the house next to the Stine crime scene and observed Zodiac’s actions in and around the cab.

PH witnesses had him at 5-8—-5-10 and around 200 lbs.–stocky.

They were upstairs, across the street and at night. Bryan was right in front of him in the daylight. I’ll take Bryan’s description over their’s.

PH witnesses had him at 5-8—-5-10 and around 200 lbs.–stocky.

They were upstairs, across the street and at night. Bryan was right in front of him in the daylight. I’ll take Bryan’s description over their’s.

The teenagers went downstairs and observed Z for some time while on the first floor, with Z standing next to the cab for reference. One of the teenagers even ventured into the street and followed Z a bit. When Pellisetti arrived, he was outside to tell him Z had just turned the corner shortly before.

Hartnell meanwhile was on the ground looking up at a guy with a hood. Hard to know just exactly where the top of the head ends when in such a costume, especially when looking up at him. Furthermore, Hartnell admitted he was not a good judge of height.

I’ll take the 2 kids’ extended viewing, at ground level, with Z next to a cab, over Bryan’s bad-angle, no reference description of a guy who’s head he could not actually see.

I didn’t know they went downstairs, but I’d still favor his despite not being 100% sold on it either. They were still seeing him at some distance in the dark and he was moving around and in the cab, then he walked away with a sort of shuffle/limp. All those movements would imply he wasn’t standing straight up and down for very long, if at all. Zodiac likely stood pretty still as she tied him up. He said over 6 feet initially. She might’ve said 6’0. If the same man was moving around the cab, hunching/moving in the dark at some distance could easily take off 3-4 inches. On the other hand, I don’t see how standing still in daylight could mistakenly add 3-4 inches.

After watching a perp for quite some time next to a car under streetlights, the kids all give a description of a slightly stocky but lean guy, around 5’8ish and about 30 years old with sort of mousy hair. They didn’t know he was Zodiac but it’s one hell of a coincidence that it’s pretty much exactly the same description that Mageau gave of Zodiac 4 months earlier. Kathleen Johns hasn’t been proven 100% to be a Z victim but she gave almost exactly the same description too.

Cecelia gave a height estimate of maybe 5’11” which Hartnell went along with but admitted that being about 6’7” he is a hopeless judge of height in even the best circumstances and that their attacker had a fancy dress costume on with big boots, a tall square hood, was standing uphill and they were mostly lying down.

I won’t discount any of these descriptions being a bit inaccurate but I’m not sure we can rubbish the majority and put the most trust in the one description where the attacker was heavily disguised from head to toe and uphill with no reference points. The tallest description we have is from the girls at Lake Berryessa who just saw a guy watching them who we can’t even say was Z. Two of the three witnesses estimated that guy at about 6ft but agreed he was tall, slim, dark haired and a bit of “fox”. Doesn’t exactly match up with any of the previous or latter descriptions of Z.