3/18/10

The girls: 28/30/40 years old. Dark hair/black hair. Neatly combed.
Bryan: 20/30. Dark hair. Combed.

The girls: dark pants, dark pull over shirt, about 200-220lbs/black sweater shirt, BUNCHED UP IN FRONT.

Bryan: stomach hanging over trousers, dark pants/shirt/jacket, around 225-250. (note..Bryan never actually saw his stomach.)

One of the girls thought she saw a "white belt around his back", but it possibly was a t-shirt hanging out. (I believe this was the clothesline)

Bryan:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport10.html

**Wouldn’t you wear your t-shirt UNDER your shirt/sweather? Not too many people walking around in dark trousers and dark sweater/shirts while others are sun-bathing. One description had the shirt as black with red in it. Convenient if trying to cover-up blood.

We KNOW there was a guy creeping around the shoreline who pretty much fit Bryan’s description.

I want to know who the creeper was watching the girls. I have never believed in two Zodiacs or a Zodiac team, but they heavily publicized that they were seeking this guy and he never came forward. That being said, I don’t think there’s any way he was Zodiac. They said he was 6ft to 6ft2, good shape dark hair no glasses. Cecelia & Bryan said their attackers was fat, bulky,overweight,etc, Cecelia told the emergency worker that he was wearing glasses,where as the creeper watching the girls wasn’t. I guess they could be the same guy but the Berryessa sketch and the Pacific Heights sketch just do not look at all like the same person, not even close

I don’t see how anyone can read what I shared there and not see it’s the same guy.

The description by the 3 girls (over 6ft tall, well built, 30ish, dark combed hair, good looking) always reminded me of Manalli. And then there’s the scouting for girls with rope in his pocket which might match the Santa Rosa case…

The description by the 3 girls (over 6ft tall, well built, 30ish, dark combed hair, good looking) always reminded me of Manalli. And then there’s the scouting for girls with rope in his pocket which might match the Santa Rosa case…

If we consider the notion that LB was not the work of "Real Z," and we then needed to find a suspect who could write on the car door in Z-like fashion, Fred would be my first choice. His looks, size, similar MO to the SRHM, and handwriting all fit well. Even the location, being more in Manalli’s territory than the Z shootings. And as Tahoe points out, LB Z was unaware that "Real Z" will claim August in a letter.

The description by the 3 girls (over 6ft tall, well built, 30ish, dark combed hair, good looking) always reminded me of Manalli. And then there’s the scouting for girls with rope in his pocket which might match the Santa Rosa case…

If we consider the notion that LB was not the work of "Real Z," and we then needed to find a suspect who could write on the car door in Z-like fashion, Fred would be my first choice. His looks, size, similar MO to the SRHM, and handwriting all fit well. Even the location, being more in Manalli’s territory than the Z shootings. And as Tahoe points out, LB Z was unaware that "Real Z" will claim August in a letter.

No offense, but farfetched thoughts like these are why this case will never be solved.

I’m with Tahoe on this one.

The description by the 3 girls (over 6ft tall, well built, 30ish, dark combed hair, good looking) always reminded me of Manalli. And then there’s the scouting for girls with rope in his pocket which might match the Santa Rosa case…

If we consider the notion that LB was not the work of "Real Z," and we then needed to find a suspect who could write on the car door in Z-like fashion, Fred would be my first choice. His looks, size, similar MO to the SRHM, and handwriting all fit well. Even the location, being more in Manalli’s territory than the Z shootings. And as Tahoe points out, LB Z was unaware that "Real Z" will claim August in a letter.

No offense, but farfetched thoughts like these are why this case will never be solved.

I’m with Tahoe on this one.

I don’t want to speak for anyone else, but actually I think Tahoe agrees with me that LB was the work of someone other than "Shooter Z." In fact it was conversations with Tahoe that brought me to that conclusion myself.

Whether Manalli looks like a possible suspect for LB may be another matter.

IF the killer at LB was not the same guy who shot the other victims, then the guy at LB still needed to have handwriting similar to that of Z. In my mind Manalli fits that pretty well. Plus the general description of a taller dark-haired guy, and etc.

I don’t think exploring possibilities hinders the chance of the case being solved. It’s not like we’re sending LE resources off on wild goose chases… And I also think there is honest disagreement as to what is farfetched and what is not.

Yes Marshall, I have my (strong) doubts the person who attacked Bryan and Cecelia was the Zodiac.

Pettibon, I actually think the opposite…that putting all eggs in one basket is what never solved the case. Scientifically, doubt is good. It helps us question things that others might not and hopefully see things in new ways.

As far as Manalli or anyone else, that’s anyone’s guess.

Instead of Multiple Z’s or Team Zodiac. Isn’t it highly more probable that these girls saw some other creepy guy checking them out at the beach???

Since their description was someone taller with slick hair etc. not at all like Hartnell’s descripton.

It’s pretty much exactly like Hartnell’s description. Please refer to page 1.

I have my (strong) doubts the person who attacked Bryan and Cecelia was the Zodiac.

So he was the worlds greatest copy-cat?

Lets see, he :
-Correctly copied Zodiac’s handwriting, including special traits that had not been established in the few letters mailed up to that point.
-Correctly imitated Zodiac’s monotone voice.
-Correctly copied Zodiac’s monotone voice and script in his call to police.
-Correctly guessed that Zodiac would be seen wearing pleated pants and engineering boots at the later PH crime scene.
-Knew to use the "candy cane F" on the car door, even though that trait had not been clearly established.
-Knew that Z would later send a letter to Paul Avery, containing "By Knife" and wrote it on the car door.

And even though he correctly copied all that, he didn’t copy the standard Z MO of gunning down people in a parked car and made up his own MO.

(strong) doubts?

We all have some degree of doubt about what happened at Berryessa: it is an attack that does not fit the general MO of Z. But when we look at the evidence, the logical conclusion is that Z (the letter writer) was involved in it, as the handwriting on Hartnell’s car has shown us. But something happened that he did not expected to happen – one of the victims survived to tell the story of the attacker with the cross-circle costume. I believe this is why he never gave himself the trouble of writing a letter claiming to have been involved in the attack, believing it to be unecessary.

Besides that, this does not completely disproves that more then 1 individual was involved – it is just highly unlikely.

We all have some degree of doubt about what happened at Berryessa: it is an attack that does not fit the general MO of Z. But when we look at the evidence, the logical conclusion is that Z (the letter writer) was involved in it, as the handwriting on Hartnell’s car has shown us. But something happened that he did not expected to happen – one of the victims survived to tell the story of the attacker with the cross-circle costume. I believe this is why he never gave himself the trouble of writing a letter claiming to have been involved in the attack, believing it to be unecessary.

Besides that, this does not completely disproves that more then 1 individual was involved – it is just highly unlikely.

I would agree with all that.

It may probably be time for me to step away from the case for a while, if not permanently, because it’s been overrun once again with a level of magical thinking that I’ve not seen since Maury Terry’s heyday: all this talk of copycats and the prevalence Horan’s asinine "Zodiac didn’t exist!" circus barking, last year’s nihilistic Ted Cruz meme, and the continued flood of "daddy did it" books crowding the true crime shelf at Barnes & Noble have led us hopelessly, hopelessly astray.

I love this board but y’all are fishing in the wrong pool with this multiple Z thing and by doubting that Berryessa was the work of someone else based on M.O. alone. M..O. changes but signature doesn’t and the signature here was EXACTLY THE SAME as what we saw in Vallejo. By casting doubt upon the identity of the murderer as well as maintaining that the eyewitness descriptions were of someone else, we’re blowing the best lead we have. It’s so frustrating.

The Zodiac was a real guy, he existed, he hurt people, and he may well be still out there somewhere collecting social security. I’m just of the opinion that what’s simple about this case (i.e., the crime scenes) is where the truth will be found and that by needlessly complicating things, we’re feeding into exactly the sense of grandeur this creep coveted for himself.

FYI I didn’t state that there had to be two Z’s. Just pointing out that the 3 girls described someone who looked a fair bit like Manalli and this guy seemed to be stalking them and possibly had rope hanging from his belt. Seeing as LE considered Manalli a suspect in various girls’ murders and he had in his possession bondage related images of a victim, you have to consider if he might have been at LB that day.

All the possible Z murders began over half a century ago and no one has been able to remotely pin all these murders on one person. Even given all the handwriting evidence, fingerprints, eyewitnesses, vehicle descriptions, etc, no one has ticked all the boxes. Given that descriptions of "Zodiac" range from 160 – 230 pounds, 28 – 45 years old, 5’7" – 6’2", blondeish receding hair to thick dark hair, we have to consider that we might be looking at more than one perp here.

I have my (strong) doubts the person who attacked Bryan and Cecelia was the Zodiac.

So he was the worlds greatest copy-cat?

Lets see, he :
-Correctly copied Zodiac’s handwriting, including special traits that had not been established in the few letters mailed up to that point.
-Correctly imitated Zodiac’s monotone voice.
-Correctly copied Zodiac’s monotone voice and script in his call to police.
-Correctly guessed that Zodiac would be seen wearing pleated pants and engineering boots at the later PH crime scene.
-Knew to use the "candy cane F" on the car door, even though that trait had not been clearly established.
-Knew that Z would later send a letter to Paul Avery, containing "By Knife" and wrote it on the car door.

And even though he correctly copied all that, he didn’t copy the standard Z MO of gunning down people in a parked car and made up his own MO.

(strong) doubts?

Zodiac’s actual letters were published in the VTH. Not just typed. The voices did not match. Nancy Slover thought the voice was similar to Gaikowski’s, yet Bryan and Slaight thought the voice sounded like a young voice. That is of course, unless one thinks Gaikowski’s voice sounded like a young student. It’s all a matter of perception, I suppose. What Zodiac said in the phone call to Nancy Slover was published as well. The Napa caller even corrects himself…to mimic was Zodiac said. The guy didn’t look the same–for whatever reason. And because Zodiac in S.F. wore BROWN, pleated pants..(no mention of engineering shoes) we have a match?

I think someone wanted to commit murder and make it look like Zodiac did it. I think someone out there admired the guy–in a sicko sense, and was pinning his actions on Zodiac. I think this same person could have easily been the copy and paste guy who stalked Avery after Avery published his letters. There are very distinct differences. For anyone who doesn’t think along these lines…it’s fine by me.