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Richard Helms- perfect reasoning

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marie
(@marie)
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Here is a great rh, though not as a suspect, but as a cause.

I am NOT into conspiracy theories, but did research project MKUltra. "They" (the CIA) were everywhere, at least 44 College and Universities, numerous jails, mental wards, and homes for the destitute.

It was a wild and crazy project, with wikipedia, sigh, having one of the most accurate accounts. It was a CIA program to help develop human tools for use in espionage. Ted Kaczynski was an unknowing victim of their psychological experiments (he had issues before hand, who knows what pushed him over the edge). Most files were shredded when it was obvious what would come out.

It is entirely possible the torture many of the "experiments" that happened led to or changed an unknowing victim’s behavior. People in prisons and psych wards were rewarded, college kids usually were paid, Many others did’t know, or have a choice.

But what about once they got out, maybe tried to live a normal life. The poem has such angst it is almost like a pulling in a direction they did’t want to go.

Richard Helms was head of the CIA during this time, and assistant director in years proceeding. If whoever it was knew it was the CIA behind the experiments, as in many places, they could have blamed RH, the director for the torture, and their new confusion.

OK, tin foil hat off now, but MKUltra was even more ubiquitous then we probably even know.

-Marie

The problem when solved will be simple– Kettering

 
Posted : March 11, 2016 10:09 am
(@endoftheworld)
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What’s your point?

 
Posted : March 11, 2016 11:17 am
Pettibon Junction
(@pettibon-junction)
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If the killer of Cheri Jo was being "pulled in a direction they didn’t want to go", it was by his own nasty impulses rather than any sort of government mind control. MKUltra was a notorious and expensive failure.

"There are such devils."
-The Pledge

 
Posted : March 11, 2016 4:36 pm
marie
(@marie)
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I think the term "mind control" has been thrown around a bit too much in regard to the program. Most experimentation revolved around weakening the individual, in part to get information from enemy spies or prisoners. While I am sure there were some with the hopes of a "reprogramming" effect for these super soldiers of our own, that is why it has become a laughable subject to most, relegated to conspiracy theories and urban myth.

In reality, the tortuous experiments were done on often the weakest members of society, exascerbating their frailties. Sensory deprivation, physical abuse, electroshock, high doses of many different mind altering drugs, and other hellacious techniques have caused a lot of long term effects in people. We won’t know who it really effected as many people have claimed to have been a victim, leading to the conspiracy theories.

We can also thank Richard Helms for shredding most of the documentation as Congress was knocking on the door, and will never know the true extent or who was actively involved or even where. Some academic institutions are known, including most of the Ivy League, Stanford, and other top schools. Prisoners often agreed to participate for special privileges, and many mental institutions were also used.

MKUltra was a notorious and expensive failure.

That doesn’t mean it didn’t leave people messed up. Not achieving the "desired" outcome is completely different from my suggestion. Someone teetering on the edge of a major mental break could easily have been pushed over the edge.

Or maybe it messed up one of the experimenters, seeing what they were doing- their is a good conspiracy idea – and then the CIA covered it up. Anyone FOIAed them about Z?

Find me the RH who wrote the poem, until then, all avenues should be considered.

-M

The problem when solved will be simple– Kettering

 
Posted : March 11, 2016 8:46 pm
(@endoftheworld)
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You’re saying you think Richard Helms wrote the poem?

 
Posted : March 11, 2016 11:07 pm
marie
(@marie)
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Bump.

You’re saying you think Richard Helms wrote the poem?

Learn to read.

The problem when solved will be simple– Kettering

 
Posted : March 13, 2016 5:08 pm
(@red_ryder)
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From Wikipedia:

In his sophomore year at Harvard, Kaczynski participated in a personality assessment study conducted by Henry Murray, an expert on stress interviews.[15] These experiments may have been part of the controversial, top-secret CIA program that was later revealed as Project MKUltra.[citation needed] Students in Murray’s study were told they would be debating personal philosophy with a fellow student.[16] Instead, they were subjected to a "purposely brutalizing psychological experiment".[16] During the test, students were taken into a room and connected to electrodes that monitored their physiological reactions, while facing bright lights and a one-way mirror. Each student had previously written an essay detailing their personal beliefs and aspirations: the essays were turned over to an anonymous attorney, who would enter the room and individually belittle each student based in part on the disclosures they had made. This was filmed, and students’ expressions of impotent rage were played back to them several times later in the study. According to author Alston Chase, Kaczynski’s records from that period suggest he was emotionally stable when the study began. Kaczynski’s lawyers attributed some of his emotional instability and dislike of mind control techniques to his participation in this study.[16] Indeed, some have suggested that this experience may have been instrumental in Kaczynski’s future actions.[17][18]

15."Psychological Evaluation of Theodore Kaczynski". Paul Cooijmans. Retrieved November 28, 2013.
16.Chase, Alston (June 2000). "Harvard and the Making of the Unabomber". The Atlantic. Retrieved February 4, 2009.
17.RadioLab (June 28, 2010). "Oops".
18.Cockburn, Alexander (October 18, 1999). "CIA Shrinks & LSD". CounterPunch. Retrieved August 7, 2015.

If the tests done on Ted were part of MKUltra, or a precursor, well they obviously did Ted a whole lot of good! So as a failure, the project was clearly a spectacular one! :lol:

Seriously though, your reasoning is sound, assuming of course that 1) the tests were part of MKUltra as suggested by Wikipedia, and 2) the tests conducted on Ted, be they MKUltra or otherwise, had such a profound effect on him that they turned him into a killer many years later. And I am assuming here that 3) You are implying that there may be a possible connection between similar testing and the Zodiac.

There are numerous "ifs" and "buts" to consider here, but of course the influence of CIA mind control, if it can be proven conclusively to have had any real and long-lasting effects on people’s mind, cannot be ruled out in the case of Ted. But in the case of the Zodiac, we would first have to prove that he was also a victim of such mind control. Considering we do not know who the Zodiac is at present, I am not sure how any connection could be made.

I have personally always felt that the "rh" may have been part of the poem itself and stood for nothing more than "Riverside High". I could of course be wrong and probably am.

 
Posted : March 14, 2016 4:54 am
(@endoftheworld)
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I have never comprehended why so many people believe (a) that the Zodiac was the killer of CJB, and (b) that the killer of CJB carved the poem. However, leaving all that aside, I do believe Ted Kaczinsky was the Zodiac and LE at the highest levels knows this, but since he’s locked up for life they don’t consider it worth the trouble to prosecute him for the Zodiac crimes, or for anything else. If they brought him to trial for Zodiac or Tylenol he could play his trump card of blabbing about his MK Ultra experiences, which may indeed have screwed him up beyond repair. Also, I think little bro David might have made a deal whereby TK would not be prosecuted for anything else if he pled guilty for the Unabomber stuff. All speculation, of course.

 
Posted : March 14, 2016 7:15 am
(@coffee-time)
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The FBI asked Ted for a DNA sample in 2011 for the Tylenol case…

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/05/19/unabomber.tylenol/

 
Posted : March 14, 2016 9:13 am
(@endoftheworld)
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Yes, Mr. AK Wilks knows all about that DNA request in detail but I believe they never got the DNA sample from Mr. Kaczinski. His home in Chicago was apparently in the middle of all the spots the poison Tylenol was planted. Wilks says the FBI is apparently not interested any more in nailing Kaczinski for any more crimes.

 
Posted : March 14, 2016 9:56 am
(@endoftheworld)
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Yes, Coffee Time, you are correct that CNN stated they requested TK’s DNA, but according to AK Wilks on the thread " Kaczinski’s DNA", TK refused. The FBI then said they would get a court order to get the DNA but did they ever get it? Apparently not. Or if they did they never talked about it further, evidently. Looks like they just let the case die, after they were already publicizing it on CNN. Why let it die? I’m guessing that somebody ABOVE the FBI—like, oh…I don’t know…. the CIA…. told them to let it die because of the possibility of bad publicity re MKUltra. Just speculation, of course. Thing is TK is locked up for life anyway, without the possibility of parole, I believe. Easy for LE to rationalize not prosecuting him for anything else. And in fact we don’t know the terms of the agreement that was made when he pled guilty to the Unabomber crimes.

 
Posted : March 14, 2016 11:12 am
marie
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If the tests done on Ted were part of MKUltra, or a precursor, well they obviously did Ted a whole lot of good! So as a failure, the project was clearly a spectacular one! :lol:

Seriously though, your reasoning is sound, assuming of course that 1) the tests were part of MKUltra as suggested by Wikipedia, and 2) the tests conducted on Ted, be they MKUltra or otherwise, had such a profound effect on him that they turned him into a killer many years later. And I am assuming here that 3) You are implying that there may be a possible connection between similar testing and the Zodiac.

There are numerous "ifs" and "buts" to consider here, but of course the influence of CIA mind control, if it can be proven conclusively to have had any real and long-lasting effects on people’s mind, cannot be ruled out in the case of Ted. But in the case of the Zodiac, we would first have to prove that he was also a victim of such mind control. Considering we do not know who the Zodiac is at present, I am not sure how any connection could be made.

I have personally always felt that the "rh" may have been part of the poem itself and stood for nothing more than "Riverside High". I could of course be wrong and probably am.

I kinda just thought it an interesting angle. From reading about Ted, he was chosen for the study based on him not fitting in at Harvard- coming from a poor family, not being able to dress the part of a rich Ivy boy. There were also issues in his childhood, but some in psychological fields think this may have been a final tipping point, and why he later targeted a lot of people in academia. He was also not well liked as an associate professor at Berkeley, with students complaining about him. He taught Calculus and Geometry (didn’t really know it was a college subject). Maybe one of his questions on a test was "if you are going to build a bomb to blow up a school bus while allowing cars to pass, how would you design it?" providing Z with inspiration? It would be interesting to find students Ted had and see what really went on.

And I was implying that perhaps Zodiac could be a victim of MKUltra. Many of the top Z candidates were institutionalized at some point, being a mental hospital or a prison, or even a college student who volunteered for some study to make a couple bucks. How much was known about MKUltra at the time (1966), but I am sure conspiracy theories of its existence were around given the huge amount of distrust of police, etc. developing at the time. (And interesting factoid, the project got its start under Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter, another RH- cue creepy music- a Zynchronicity?) They tested on their own agents or it could have been one of them or a researcher who snapped from seeing the pain they caused people. Why were they at the library? Don’t know, just a random thought.

Or hell, throw MKUltra out the window, distrust of the government might have been enough to use rh.

(I personally don’t think Ted was Z, but he was in the right place and the right time)

-M

The problem when solved will be simple– Kettering

 
Posted : March 15, 2016 1:59 am
duckking2001
(@duckking2001)
Posts: 628
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You should read the book Project Artichoke. This is what it is about. Also that the government made Zodiac kill Darlene Ferrin because she was a witness to Bobby Kennedy’s assassination, which they of course were also behind.

 
Posted : March 15, 2016 1:12 pm
(@endoftheworld)
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Did they present any evidence regarding Darlene’s part in the RFK assassination?

 
Posted : March 15, 2016 4:01 pm
Seagull
(@seagull)
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The book claimed that Darlene was the "girl in the polka dot dress".

www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com

 
Posted : March 15, 2016 7:26 pm
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