1st guy is alive,2nd guy is dead:
James Phillip Flowers Jr. died in 1994 at the age of 44

1st guy is alive,2nd guy is dead:
James Phillip Flowers Jr. died in 1994 at the age of 44

Mageau stated that his assailant appeared older than him, JPF was same age that time (19). Do we know the other guy’s age?

QT

1st guy is alive,2nd guy is dead:
James Phillip Flowers Jr. died in 1994 at the age of 44

Mageau stated that his assailant appeared older than him, JPF was same age that time (19). Do we know the other guy’s age?

QT

About the same

When Rust went to Terry’s to interview Darlene’s co-workers, Bobbie Ramos told him that the only "serious" bf of Darlene’s that she knew of was named "Warren" who drove a pickup with welding (or other gas) bottles, etc, in the back. Does anyone know if this is the same man as this Donald Warren — ?

I’ve noticed that a lot of Zodiac researchers have looked high and low for "Lee" but has anyone ever checked on "Warren?"

Thanks!

1st guy is alive,2nd guy is dead:
James Phillip Flowers Jr. died in 1994 at the age of 44

Mageau stated that his assailant appeared older than him, JPF was same age that time (19). Do we know the other guy’s age?

QT

About the same

Donald Warren ****** was 24 years old at the time so not too far out from Mageau’s estimate.

Does anyone know if this is the same "Warren" that Bobbie Ramos told Rust she thought might have been having an affair with Darlene? She told Rust that Darlene went to SF with him a week or two before she was killed.

Donald Warrren X told Villareal and Lynch that the P38 that they found on him belonged to an ex-con in SF.

Same guy? Does anyone know?

I might go to Vallejo today , to check on the address shown for Donald Warren—— . the number 227B could be" Evens" st in Vallejo , where Don Porter lived. He was living with a guy about 30 yrs old , brown curly hair, stocky about 5 ft 8 180 pounds. This is the guy who went nuts when Don mentioned we were going to Dee’s house to pick up or drop off something before going to San Francisco. If I find anything I will let you know.

Ms Betts:

Thanks! Please keep in mind, I’m not suggesting either one of these Warrens murdered Darlene! I’m just curious if they happen to be the same guy. I know Darlene had a lot of friends, and a lot of people assumed they were all boyfriends, but that doesn’t mean anything.

Does anyone know if this is the same "Warren" that Bobbie Ramos told Rust she thought might have been having an affair with Darlene? She told Rust that Darlene went to SF with him a week or two before she was killed.

Donald Warrren X told Villareal and Lynch that the P38 that they found on him belonged to an ex-con in SF.

Same guy? Does anyone know?

Not sure if the Warren mentioned by Ramos was the same ‘Warren’ that mentioned getting the gun from the ex-con. I was interested to know the name of the ‘ex-con’ in SF. ‘Warren’ refused to name him.

There are a few SF names in Darlene’s address book, including old friends from the Haight. I wonder if any of them happened to know Donald Warren X . . . Bobbie said she thought Darlene went to SF with "Warren."

According to the reports, Donald immediately told his friend "I’m going to be booked for murder." And Lynch did book him for Darlene’s murder. They sent his P38 to Sacto for comparison with the slugs from BRS. Does anyone know how that turned out? Bobbie described "Warren" as tall and thin.

If Sandy Betts is right, and Donald’s roommate resembled the guy Mageau described, then why did "Warren" assume HE was going to be booked for murder? Did he think he was set up? It does seem like Villareal was waiting for him. All he did was knock on "Willie’s" door. That’s not a crime, not even in Texas. The cheeky bugger even had another pistol in his BVD’s.

What a town.

I spent the whole day in Vallejo investigating Don Porter’s address, it was 320b Evans Ave, not 227B.

I did a check for James P Flowers in the city directories .The only Flowers I was able to find was at 528 Hilton Ave Vallejo not 526, when I reversed the address ( meaning looking at the address in the back of the book )the person that showed at the 528 address was a M. Luke. So both people lived at that address 1968-1969. It didn’t show a job for Flowers.

1973 David W Friend lived at 320a Evans , I hoped for a R. H. to be living at Don’s. R. Refal showed at that address 1970. When these books get printed they are really showing part of 1969, not only 1970.

While I was checking for names at that address before and after 1969 I stumbled across a "Lee" Fort at 322 Evans he was a sheet metal worker at Mare Island It was the name “Lee” that caught my eye.

One of the things that I remember about the guy who lived with Don porter on Evans Ave ,the one who fit the description given of Zodiac , was that he had a piano that he played .
I left a Large framed picture there for Don, that we named Bloody Mary, because they felt the picture was haunted. It was a part of the 60’s Ghosts, spirits, séances. (We all dabbled in it )

Ms Betts:

Thanks for checking! I was under the impression from Pam and others that "Lee" was a woman. Her family were friends of Joanna’s from Texas and Lee was their daughter. Their mom and dad would send presents from Texas and Mexico to the Suennen girls.

According to Bobbie, "Warren’s" pickup had welding equipment in the back. That would suggest sheet metal work at Mare Island, wouldn’t it? If these guys all worked together at Mare Island, maybe "Warren" and the others changed apartments or roommates every few months.

I just think it’s interesting that Donald Warren X knew instantly he was going to be booked for Darlene’s murder. And then a few days later, right after VPD would have received the results of the ballistics check on his P38, Zodiac wrote his first letter. A day or two before he did, Rust showed Mike a mug shot, most likely of this Donald Warren guy, and Mike said he didn’t recognize him. But you say he had a friend who looked like Mike’s description? One who got upset when you mentioned going to Darlene’s house? That adds up to a lot of coincidences if you ask me.

If these guys were all single, it’s a pretty safe bet they all ate at the restaurants where Darlene worked. She was very friendly and popular.

Does anyone know if Jake Zwark knows what happened with that ballistics check? If it came back negative, that would not have violated anyone’s privacy, so it should be among the released files. So it must have been positive. And Donald Warren claimed it belonged to another guy. I wonder why DW had it in HIS pocket, though? And why he brought it to "Willie’s" house? What was Willie going to do with it? In 1969, Villareal had "Wally’s" house staked out. Wally dealt in a lot of stolen merchandise and drugs. Was he supposed to get rid of DW’s P38 for him? DW had his own pistol tucked in his underwear, so he must have been planning to get rid of the P38 at "Willie’s" house. And he just have known why, since he knew VPD would immediately book him for the Ferrin murder.

I wonder who tipped Villareal? Knocking on "Willie’s" door was not a crime, unless DW was a felon, and Villareal recognized him and picked him up on a parole violation. Seems like a bonehead thing to do on a year long undercover stakeout. Coming out of "Willie’s" house with some pep pills in his pocket would be a reason to pick him up, but "Willie" wasn’t home. Somebody must have tipped Villareal that Darlene’s murder weapon would come knocking around midnight. The night of the murder, Villareal claimed he went past the parking lot about 11:55 and saw a blue Ford there, but not Darlene’s car. Of course, the Ford would have blocked his view form the parkway. In that report, Villareal was supposed to type his own official report, but no ones ever seen that, either. It’s weird he was there at the time of the shooting, saw what must have been the shooters car there, and ALSO arrested a guy who blurted out that he was going to be booked for that murder. A few days before Zodiac claimed HE shot Darlene.

Did you happen to notice if any of those guys drove a blue Ford?

Thanks again!

Ms Betts:

Thanks for checking! I was under the impression from Pam and others that "Lee" was a woman. Her family were friends of Joanna’s from Texas and Lee was their daughter. Their mom and dad would send presents from Texas and Mexico to the Suennen girls.

According to Bobbie, "Warren’s" pickup had welding equipment in the back. That would suggest sheet metal work at Mare Island, wouldn’t it? If these guys all worked together at Mare Island, maybe "Warren" and the others changed apartments or roommates every few months.

I just think it’s interesting that Donald Warren X knew instantly he was going to be booked for Darlene’s murder. And then a few days later, right after VPD would have received the results of the ballistics check on his P38, Zodiac wrote his first letter. A day or two before he did, Rust showed Mike a mug shot, most likely of this Donald Warren guy, and Mike said he didn’t recognize him. But you say he had a friend who looked like Mike’s description? One who got upset when you mentioned going to Darlene’s house? That adds up to a lot of coincidences if you ask me.

If these guys were all single, it’s a pretty safe bet they all ate at the restaurants where Darlene worked. She was very friendly and popular.

Does anyone know if Jake Zwark knows what happened with that ballistics check? If it came back negative, that would not have violated anyone’s privacy, so it should be among the released files. So it must have been positive. And Donald Warren claimed it belonged to another guy. I wonder why DW had it in HIS pocket, though? And why he brought it to "Willie’s" house? What was Willie going to do with it? In 1969, Villareal had "Wally’s" house staked out. Wally dealt in a lot of stolen merchandise and drugs. Was he supposed to get rid of DW’s P38 for him? DW had his own pistol tucked in his underwear, so he must have been planning to get rid of the P38 at "Willie’s" house. And he just have known why, since he knew VPD would immediately book him for the Ferrin murder.

I wonder who tipped Villareal? Knocking on "Willie’s" door was not a crime, unless DW was a felon, and Villareal recognized him and picked him up on a parole violation. Seems like a bonehead thing to do on a year long undercover stakeout. Coming out of "Willie’s" house with some pep pills in his pocket would be a reason to pick him up, but "Willie" wasn’t home. Somebody must have tipped Villareal that Darlene’s murder weapon would come knocking around midnight. The night of the murder, Villareal claimed he went past the parking lot about 11:55 and saw a blue Ford there, but not Darlene’s car. Of course, the Ford would have blocked his view form the parkway. In that report, Villareal was supposed to type his own official report, but no ones ever seen that, either. It’s weird he was there at the time of the shooting, saw what must have been the shooters car there, and ALSO arrested a guy who blurted out that he was going to be booked for that murder. A few days before Zodiac claimed HE shot Darlene.

Did you happen to notice if any of those guys drove a blue Ford?

Thanks again!

You are welcome,

There are a lot of assumptions and misunderstandings going on here, let me try to clarify a few .
Joanna is Johanna who is Darlene’s other sister who was living in Texas , she didn’t have a daughter named Lee. The name Lee came up when Pam was told about Art Allen ( Power of suggestion ? ) Pam did mention to me that there were two guys who came up from Texas Carl Key and Lee Proctor or Lee Key and Carl Proctor? The Lee that was being sought was a male not a female.

When I said the guy who was upset that Don Porter mentioned going to Dee’s house, I didn’t say he said Darlene’ house . Even though I do believe that was who they were talking about.

If the ballistics test on the p38 had come back positive you can bet that DW would have been booked for Darlene’s murder, regardless of who he said owned that gun.
Withholding information in a murder case is punishable by law. So it must not have been the gun used in Darlene’s case.

I am pretty sure the other gun that was found in that arrest was found on Flowers not DW . Look at the length of the marked out lines. The shorter line is DW’s name, the longer line is Flowers, it was found on the line that was longer.

I never heard that there was a yearlong stake out ? There is a difference in a yearlong investigation and a stake out .

The blue Ford would not block BV view of the parking area even if there were several cars there , you would be able to see it clearly. The killer didn’t have a blue Ford near midnight that night, he drove a brown car , very much like Darlene’s Covair.

BV arrested Dw who said he would be booked for murder a few days before Zodiac claimed he murdered Darlene ????? Zodiac claimed it minutes after it happened, with the phone call made a gas station on the corner of Springs road and Tuolumne.

Ms Betts:

No, dear, let me clarify. Lee Proctor, born 1960, is very definitely a woman. She and her family were from Texas. I was under the impression that HER parents were friends of Johanna’s, not that Lee was Johanna’s daughter. Perhaps Lee Proctor was named after someone in the family. Of course, as always when dealing with Pam, one must, shall we say, double check. Lee Proctor might have been a kid Pam babysat. Who knows? Graysmith made a big deal out of the name "Lee" because that fit his frame around Arthur Leigh Allen, but as far as I know, Lee Whoever was a woman.

You said that, when you were at Don’s house, you mentioned that you were going to Darlene’s house, and Don’s FRIEND got all upset. Right? Is that the story? Maybe it wasn’t the same Donald as Donald Warren X, but you were checking on that, right?

Donald Warren X was most certainly booked for Darlene’s murder by Lynch in the wee hours of July 21. Whenever other guns were checked for ballistics and the result was negative, it’s noted in the files. The results of the check on DW’s P38 are NOT noted in the files. So, "assuming" is foolish, at best.

VPD would have received the results of that test in the mail on or around July 26 or so. Rust went to the hospital and showed Mike a mug shot. The next day, he showed Mike a stack of mugshots. No result. A day or two later, Zodiac sat down and wrote his first letter. The guy sitting in jail charged with Darlene’s murder was named Donald Warren something. Bobbie said she thought Darlene was stepping out with a man named Warren a few days before she was shot. You knew a man named Donald Warren whose known address in 1969 was within a block of the Donald Warren X who was booked for Darlene’s murder. Donald Warren X was tall and thin, but according to a witness, you, he had a friend/roommate who matched Mike’s description of the shooter, and who got very upset when you mentioned going to Darlene’s house.

THAT is a lot of coincidences. Too many to just "assume" we know what the results of that ballistics check were.

It’s been 45 years. What harm could come from Jake Zwark or someone "leaking" their copy of that report? If it was negative, it can’t possibly do Donald Warren X any harm. It would help clear him, right? The only excuse the FBI has to deny the FOIA request to release that page at this point is that it would invade the pivacy of someone mentioned in the report. If the results were negative, there’s no harm done to the privacy of Donald Warren X. So, no, I think we can "assume" there is something in report that DOES tend to cast further suspicion on Donald Warren X or his friend. According to his friend James, Donald KNEW he was going to be booked for murder. And he was. The funny thing is, so long as he had an alibi for the LHR shooting, Zodiac’s sudden need for front page attention suddenly gave him an alibi for BRS, too.

Some guys get all the luck.