Sorry if I missed it but how does Fred Manalli work, if at all, into "My name is …" cipher?

Sorry if I missed it but how does Fred Manalli work, if at all, into "My name is …" cipher?

Sorry if I missed it but how does the "My name is …" cipher work, if at all?

Sorry if I missed it but how does Fred Manalli work, if at all, into "My name is …" cipher?

Sorry if I missed it but how does the "My name is …" cipher work, if at all?

Exactly. I don’t believe the ciphers actually hold The Z’s name, meaningful clues or messages. But if we are going to try and connect The Z. to Manalli, I was curious if someone tried working Manalli’s name into the name cipher.

Sorry if I missed it but how does Fred Manalli work, if at all, into "My name is …" cipher?

Sorry if I missed it but how does the "My name is …" cipher work, if at all?

Exactly. I don’t believe the ciphers actually hold The Z’s name, meaningful clues or messages. But if we are going to try and connect The Z. to Manalli, I was curious if someone tried working Manalli’s name into the name cipher.

Yeah, of course. Even if I don’t know what to make of the Z13 it’s always a default thing to think if a POI’s name has 13 letters in it to begin with. It would be a total bonus of course if it fit as well as a simple substitution solution without anagramming. Not sure if that’s happened for any yet? Maybe it has.

As for Manalli, well he used pseudonyms, as writers tend to and he had several alternative ways of referring to himself, one being – "Little Freddie", there’s your 13 letters there at least.

Personally I think it’s crowbarring when it comes to names and the Z13. Even if someone were to find a name that fits (whatever fits means) and that person was Zodiac, it still might as well be crowbarring until we could prove it was the correct solution.

Hi, this is my 1st post and i hope this is a good place to post this topic. From everything i’ve read about FM, he seems like a great suspect. His writing seems like a ‘mirrored’ dead ringer for Z’s. I’ve read zodiac’s letters for so long and so many times that i think i could spot it anywhere (whenever i encounter someones writing for the 1st time, i actually mentally compare it to z’s). At first glance i didn’t think much of FM’s writing. Then i kept studying it and its mostly slanted opposite that of z’s but i could see soon away that it was right on. I’m not sure if z’s correct description has ever been published. Perhaps, the SF composite is accurate maybe the LB sketch is. I’m not certain anyone ever gotten a great look at him to give a dead accurate description. So, i won’t discount any suspect that doesn’t match the descriptions or sketches. Maybe his height is anywhere from 5’6-6’2. That would pretty much include 99% of the male population, so height wouldn’t necessary rule anyone out for me either. One thing that lingers about FM for me is SHOE SIZE! We can’t be 100% about much in this case and not even shoe size but its almost certain (in my mind) that the tracks from LB were z’s. While its not impossible, odds are very slim that at 6’3, FM would be wearing a shoe between 9-10. I believe Morf has talked to a relative of FM’s? Is it possible you could ask about shoe size (not that anyone would remember unless it was a ridiculously gigantic size). Anyways, just something that keeps bugging me about this POI. Besides the shoe size question, he appears to be just as good a suspect as anyone else. Again, the writing really sticks out to me (btw, excellent work by traveller1st for all the hard work with the writing comparisons).

Hi zodiphile.

Thank you for taking the time to read through this stuff and for you kind comments. It gave me an excuse to visit this thread and I thought while I’m here I might as well read back, 2nd page at least.

Re-reading is good and I noticed my own comments/thoughts regarding the pick and choose approach when it comes to creating a different style of handwriting. I had forgotten that I ‘d even though that. Curiously, in my recent investigations of just Zodiac’s own writings, I am leaning towards that approach being used.

There seems to be a variation in 3’s as a base. By that I mean, take a letter and then a character. Lets say a lowercase n. Pick three variations of that characters and intersperse them throughout the letter. Now it’s not limited to 3’s but I think that is because natural variations come into play. 3 though seems like a logical number to start with when it comes to variation. One right, one wrong, one maybe. Wouldn’t really work with 2’s because you would see that pattern quite easily. One here one there.

I may come back to looking at Fred’s writing but again, thank you, I hadn’t realised I was thinking about this approach when it came to his writing. Bloody Fred, he won’t let go. I don’t even have a POI lol, it’s not my thing.

My starting to look at the 3’s or groupings of character choice in the Zodiac’s letter constructions are here. http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtop … f=96&t=789

I’m spotting new things every day. More tell tale signs, for Zodiac, in his writing. I think I’m just trying to uncover every little nuance. Hopefully so, that someday, someone might connect one of them to something.

Congrats on your first post. Not the worst place to start.

Good News….More Manalli writing (as much as 173 pages)is coming,hopefully by next week.
Bad News….Trav may find himself spending hours and hours sorting thru it.

You raise some valid points about Fred, he was pretty tall, and not sure about shoe size. While he had been thin at one time, he laso mentioned in a letter that he had put on alot of weight. I try not to look too much at the sketches of z,because then I may pass by a good suspect that doesnt look much like the sketch,and that sketch makes a million men in the SF bay area suspects, its too generic. I started looking at Fred by accident.After reading about him in Graysmith’s book, I wanted to know more about him, and I chanced upon some writing by him posted by Deb (she is interested in him in the Santa Rosa murders). I happened to notice a few thinsg that caught my eye about his writing, and pased it along to Trav, and the rest is history. It’s really crazy the amount of things you can find in Fred’s writing that matches Z, I won’t mention them all,there are enough pages to last you hours reading, but you simply can not find this amount of likeness to Z in any other suspect’s writing, and I would challenged people to do so. One other things is that his Sister mentioned manalli had a stutter. Well, in fact, she had not kept up with him in years, and they were not very close(she didnt even know what year he died in). Its possible that he could have overcome his stutter, in fact, Zodiac’s voice was described as slow and deliberate, perhaps the way somebody with a stutter might talk

Zodiac mentions SLAVES IN PARADISE, at the same time manalli has a short story published called, ‘PARADISE IT’S A NICE PLACE’.

Zodiac loved the word’ SHALL’, Manalli loved the word ‘Shall’ and thats not a common word for Americans to use.

Zodiac misspeled many words with the same exact errors as James Joyce purposely did in one of his Books, what do you know, Manalli likes James joyce.

Zodiac oddly breaks up words in the middle of the word, CAUG HT, SOME THING,Manalli does the same for the same words.

Zodiac used the phrase ‘Hang by their thumbs’ in his letter, Manalli used the term ‘Hang By Your Thumbs’ in his story.

Zodiac referenced, in 1969, THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME in his letters, In 68-69 Manalli’s friend and author had a story published in a book that included multiple stories, one of which was THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME.

Zodiac last writes a confirmed letter in 1974, Manalli died in 1976 in an accident that could very well be suicide by auto, and low and behold, the very next day, an ad runs in Zodiac’s favorite paper,SF Chronicle, that reads "Zodiac, your partner is in deep real estate" (6 feet under).

It’s all simply AMAZING! And although I dont usually buy into a Zodiac ‘Team’, if ever there was one, I would say Manalli could very likely have been the writer.

Ya, i agree with everything you’re saying Morf. I would never eliminate anyone based on the composite. Depending on what you read or believe, even if Z has left finger prints along the way (i’m pretty sure that he has), i’m not sure the prints are good enough to eliminate anyone. However, all of that is for a different discussion. so, i am thinking that the shoe impression has to be from the killer. I’ve never bought into a team zodiac but i’m not totally closed to that idea. FM may have nothing to do with the Z case but from what i’ve learned about him he seems to fit the psychological profile of z and the writing is as close as anything i’ve seen. So, i’m sure it wouldn’t be easy but i hope we can dig into more of Manalli’s past.

Good News….More Manalli writing (as much as 173 pages)is coming,hopefully by next week.
Bad News….Trav may find himself spending hours and hours sorting thru it.

Oh …dear….God. lol.

Ah well at least I’m not alone because more pages means more questions. I have to say that despite the handwriting I don’t fancy this guy but that’s just caution on my part. Truth be told if we can find something that rules him out I won’t be disappointed.

It does strike me as odd that there aren’t that many people out there who remember Fred. Maybe we just haven’t found them but the guy was a teacher he can’t have avoided human contact. His own sister though struggled to remain in contact. I don’t get the feeling from morf’s posts regarding this that it was down to her. In Manalli’s writing I get the feeling he was reaching out but he choose Dan Curley to do that to. Not family or friends. He was staying under the radar and I think that’s why he’s hard to nail down in regard finding people that knew him. That and time.

I think there’s a hermitage issue there. I was not averse to such behaviour myself because it allows you to (hide). You simply stop interacting with those around you but for me it was to (hide) something. Let that go on long enough and you become distant from everyone. Morf and others noticed when I vanished due to my foot thing. So in that regard you can’t stay (hidden). Not when you interact.

There doesn’t seem to be much of a footprint for Fred except around the time of his divorce and in my mind that’s because he had to interact. So what was his driving force to remain hidden the rest of the time? My driving forces were temporary. Neglect, laziness, thoughtlessness, outside distractions. When I used to drink however they were pathological. They became part of me to maintain the illusion. To explain. when you are asked "how are you?" mostly you reply "I’m fine". Really? You’re not though are you? Something hurts, emotional or physical. That’s pathological. You are actually believing what you say otherwise why say it? Technically.

To reach out from behind that veil has a certain flavor and I can kinda see that in Fred’s words. We’re exploring though and we have to remember that. I can’t just suddenly announce because of my handwriting adventures that Fred is the Zodiac. Was he hiding something? Of course he was, we all do , but what was he hiding and does it have a bearing on the Zodiac case?

I think we need to be clear on the information gathering of the time and what your footprint should have been. Then work out from there. Was Fred’s footprint, or lack of, particularly abnormal? And, given what we think we know, are there any red flags?

We are like archeologists, we dig and try to sort. Who knows what reference point any of us may bring. We may, in the end and at the very least , be adding information to an innocent man forgotten in his own time.

A Jury without a Judge?

well said Trav

I did lunch with Fred’s sister this last summer. She spoke candidly about her brother for a couple of hours. Fred and his sister and brother were not especially close. Fred was a good 10 years or so older than them both. Both of the parents worked and they were mainly raised by their grandmother.

She told me that Fred was a severe stutterer and that she also stuttered as a child but she overcame the affliction. I was told that people who stutter have certain words or letter sounds that are difficult so they will use substitute words to avoid the difficult ones. This was the case with the word shall and Fred’s use of the word. The word "will" would cause Fred to stutter and he substituted the word "shall" which was much easier for him.

Certain social situations will also cause a person to stutter more than at other times. I think it is possible that Fred may have stuttered worse around his family than he did around others who were not his family. Fred was hired for teaching jobs which would have required him to speak a fair amount. He taught at the junior college level and also taught at San Quentin Prison. I doubt he would have been considered for either job if his stuttering was so bad that it distracted from teaching his classes.

Fred’s sister was all over the place when it came to timelines. She contradicted herself a few times when I tried to learn when Fred did this or that. At one point Fred did leave his teaching job at SRJC because he was absolutely besotted with a very young female student that was from France. She had completed her studies and gone home. Fred left his wife and followed this young woman to her parents home in France. Upon Fred’s arrival the woman’s father was furious that an older man had followed her home and sent Fred packing. I suspect this happened around the first time Fred’s wife filed for a divorce Aug. 1970 in Sonoma County. The second divorce filing, the one that was eventually finalized, was filed Dec. 1973 in San Francisco County.

Fred’s sister did not come to live in California until after Fred died in 1976 so her not being certain about when things happened with Fred is not entirely surprising. They did not communicate on a regular basis.

Wow Deb, good stuff. I know you had mentioned some of this to me before. I am blown away by Fred’s use of the word, ‘SHALL’. It’s simply not a normal word used by most Americans yet Z & Manalli both frequently used it. And if his Sister overcame the stutter to be on the news,totally possible that Fred did too.
Thanks

I just read that David Carpenter, who was once suspected of being the Zodiac, had a severe stutter. As a matter of fact, look at this list of stutterers that went on to become serial killers-
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Speech-Lan … r-Suicides

ANd at this site:
http://www.sevenoaksmag.com/commentary/100_comm2.html

"Because he had a new book out, I once had to interview John Douglas, the former FBI agent credited with creating the computer profiling used to track down serial killers. One of his many tricks for finding them, he told me, was always to look for a guy who stutters"

Carly Simon stuttered and said:
"In a 2008 interview with Tavis Smiley, Carly Simon discusses what it was like growing up with a severe stutter and how she learned to overcome it using rhthym and song. Simon describes her mother teaching her how to “speak with rhythm” as a means of helping her communicate. As Simon jokes, “I learned to talk with a very bizarre sense of rhythm that my teachers could never quite figure out.” Smiley also talks about his own experience growing up with a stutter, and in his case, listeningto the recordings of Dr. Martin Luther King done by Barry Gordy. According to Smiley, the recordings taught him “to emulate Dr. King’s cadence, which was slow and deliberate and methodical” as a means of getting over his stutter. – See more at: http://presencelearning.com/blog/speech … JTgpy.dpuf"

This is how Bryan Hartnell dscribed Zodiac’s voice,is it not?
"was slow and deliberate and methodical" or rehearsed??? Even his call on 7/4/69, Nancy Slover said it may have sounded REHEARSED

At 59:30 into the documentary here, Hartnell describes Zodiac’s voice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0jnsbZwys

Pardon my ignorance, but who is Fred Manalli? I’ve never heard of the man.

Phil you should try to read his whole topic, he has quite a few threads.

Manalli was mentioned, although not by name in Graysmith’s ZU. He is the junior college teacher that was killed in a car accident in 1976 in Santa Rosa. His ex-wife while cleaning out his home after his death found items that connected him to at least one of the SRHM, that of Kim Allen. A couple of years or so ago I was able to come up with a large amount of his handwriting, we probably have more of his writing than any other suspect. Well, there is probably more TK handwriting but we do have a lot of Manalli’s. From there he kind of mushroomed as a possible Zodiac suspect not only because of his handwriting but also because of the content of his writings. Some interesting things were learned in the process.

Pardon my ignorance, but who is Fred Manalli? I’ve never heard of the man.

LOL,you have alot of reading to do in this thread. Manalli was mentioned by Graysmith in one of his Z books. He was a Santa Rosa Junior college teacher. For some unknown reason, Graysmith thought that Arthur Leigh Allen was friends with him, and tried to link Allen to him in the book. Turns out, a woman(not sure who she was)told Graysmith that Manalli had been to Riverside in 66 and should be considered as a Bates/Zodiac suspect (we have looked and found zero proof he was ever in Riverside). I started looking at writing that Seagull obtained of his, and some things caught my eye, and TRAV1st got involved examing the writing, and hre we are hundreds of posts and over 70 pages including the old forum, of Manalli stuff. Too many things that make manali appear to be a Z suspect